What does one purchase after owning horns?

" As in all fields, the application of generalizations is fraught with difficulties!"

Amen, brother!

Klipsch uses non-aggressive horns? Huh? Only the humble Forte uses a tractrix flare. IME (I have owned K-horns and LaScala) these speakers have far more audible horn coloration than the AGs.

Conical mid horns with proper (thick, non-resonant) construction and the bit of necessary EQ have virtually no horn coloration - none.

But there's still a substantial downside - no mid horn can go lower than a couple hundred cycles at the very best and so you are always going to have an xover in a pretty critical region. Not that it can't be made perhaps close to inaudible, or at least non-objectionable. But this and other trade-offs will always remain.

T_bone, In the case of Avantgardes, all you have to do is look at what sort of amplifier the designer is using (that is the case with most speakers). He uses a low power transistor amplifier, which explains the 'crossover' of the Trio (its all caps- no chokes, so the impedance of the speaker drops as frequency increases since the lower frequency drivers are not rolled out of the circuit).

It is for this reason that despite the efficiency of the speaker, quite often larger tubes amps are preferred, so they won't sound rolled off. Our Croatian dealer sold a number of MA-1s to Avantgarde Trio owners for this reason- you don't need 140 watts with that speaker! IME the smaller Avantgardes are less problematic in this regard.

****

With regards to distortion in horns, to be kept low the design of the horn is quite critical. FWIW, the guy that did the JBL horns also designed the horns and drivers for TAD. The TAD horn has a problem with spiky response right near the cutoff frequency on their driver. Classic Audio Loudspeakers ran into this problem and had a new horn designed by Bruce Edgar that does not have any issue with this at all.

IMO the fact that horn-loaded drivers don't have to move much to make a lot of sound helps keep their distortion down. If set up right they can be as low or lower distortion than anything out there. If set up wrong the distortion can skyrocket. As in all fields, the application of generalizations is fraught with difficulties!

Shadorne, Klipsch uses the "non aggressive" horn type you mention. However, because of the horn type AG uses, I find the seated distance between them and the listener needs to be greater,ime. However I have "heard" this rule be broken in many cases. I have heard many Lascalas (and Khorns for that matter)in which the owners have changed out the mid horn(to Altecs mostly)and I have not liked it as much as the original. I felt it threw the balance and coherence off. Other things as well. All of these horn designs were available to PWK, but I think he made excellent choices for his models. I know it is a matter of personal taste.

Shadorne you do not mention SPL level for conventional design distort much when near max SPL.

John - yes that is true. I was just passing on info on horns. In conventional designs if you need higher SPL and need good linearity then big and beefy drivers with pro voice coils and magnets are the ticket. In the case of horns however there is a fundamental difference because the non-linearity comes from non-linear air compression in the chamber - so it is an inherent issue that can change the way the sound is compressed as a function of SPL and frequency. As I mentioned, I think it is clear from the JBL paper - these problems are more significant in very high efficiency horns (greater compression) and long horns with narrow flare. AG horns are both efficient and have a long narrow flare - so it may help the OP achieve better bass integration to consider other less "aggressive" horn designs with wider flare and lower efficiency.

Just a thought....every design has its pros and cons and the OP has clearly stated why horns sound so good (the pros).

"lack of distortion"

That's a tough case to make in reality I think.

I'll buy radiation pattern control as a another unique attribute of potential benefit.

radiation pattern control lack of distortion and efficiency

Mapman wrote: "The primary benefit of horns is efficiency."

No doubt I'm in the minority here, but my primary reason for using horns (waveguides being a type of horn) is radiation pattern control.

Ralph, Can you elaborate on exactly WHY the Avantgarde speakers are "meant for" SS amps? And is there an SS amp-type which would work similarly to a tube amp (or at least in a way such that the speaker would think that it was looking at a tube amp)?

I ask because I recently tried SS amps (zero NFB, Class A) on my horns and found myself enjoying the combination. I have not spent enough time since the earthquake here listening critically to get a handle on them yet and my ultimate goal is to bi-amp, but so far so good.

Just an add on. I have always placed dynamic range as the most important virtue of any system. However, prat is very very close in importance to me . I need to follow the "playing" of the musicians. There is tonal coherence and agility coherence. By improperly matching damping characteristics between amp and speaker, you can ruin prat.

Atmasphere, I appreciate your response. And yes, the ears are what we use to determine the sound we like. I always found that inefficient speakers (I owned many and am familiar with many)required an amp with greater damping, and in my experience, this has led to ss. And I believe the point Mapman made about the efficiency of a horn being a benefit,is valid. However, some of your previous explanations is just beyond me, even though I am somewhat educated. As far as hearing rules, I have not paid much attention to what has been written. But I have always listened with peaks at around 100db, which is a reason I own horns. They show the difference between the "soft" in music and the "loud". All with a small amp. I am aware of the danger to exposing oneself to loud sounds. I am not concerned.

So, based on Ralph's comment, "if you already have an Avantgarde and you are trying to use tubes with it, now you know why its been so hard to find something that makes the drivers/woofers blend properly", if Renmeister had used something like one of Nelson Pass's First Watt amps while he still owned his Unos, perhaps this entire post would never have existed. ;-)

PS, I note that Avantgarde has now introduced their own SS amp to match with their speakers.

Mrdecibel, I suppose this all could be boiled down to damping characteristics. How you would have to view it is like this:

1) some speakers like lots of damping and others don't.
2) Some amps have lots of damping and others don't.
3) Don't mix the two or the combination will not sound right.

Its my opinion that our ears are the most valuable things that we have as audiophiles, and that our ears are the most important thing in audio (I guarantee we would not be playing with audio gear if we had no ears). To that extent it is also my opinion that the more we design our equipment to obey the rules that our ears are using the more our equipment will sound like real music.

It is this latter point where things get dicey. In a nutshell, if you were to guess, what are some of the more important human hearing rules? Duke has pointed at some of them, and I'm on record saying that how we perceive the volume or sound pressure of a sound is the most important hearing rule. If the equipment violates this rule the resulting sound will not be perceived as real no matter how good the system handles everything else.

Dr. Herbert Melcher, and Nobel Prize laureate neuro-chemical scientist, has documented that if the system violates certain fundamental hearing rules, there is a tipping point where the processing in the brain moves from the limbic system to the cerebral cortex- the difference between emotional and intellectual response. He has some pretty hard numbers on this- essentially documenting the subjective experience. I am hoping he continues this research!

Atmasphere,
I am glad there are people like you in the world. Clear and to the point.

I find damping characteristics audible with all kinds of music, with all kinds of speaker/amp combos. How and why it all works, I will leave that to others here, who go beyond having just ears, such as myself.

I have dropped this link many times:
[ur]http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html[/url]

It has to do with two different design, test and measurement techniques, both of which are alive and well in high end audio.

Weseixas subscribes to the Voltage paradigm which I subscribe to the Power paradigm. This gives us plenty of lively debate. I use the word 'paradigm' on account of the fact that quite often an individual who subscribes to a certain paradigm will have the opinion that anything outside that platform of thought is inherently 'wrong'. That's pretty much the definition of paradigm...

Anyway, several points. First, I did not make this stuff up. The Power paradigm existed before I was born (1956 for those keeping track) and, much like the tubes that are often at the heart of its tenets, failed to be displaced by the newer wave of transistors and constant-voltage theory that followed.

IOW it is quite possible to have bass that is not at all muddy, even with an amp that has a sizable output impedance. All you have to do is design a speaker that anticipates that, and Duke has mentioned one technique already. Now its a simple fact that all horns from the old days use these same design rules. When you try to use an amp that has constant-voltage characteristics on such a speaker, the crossover will not work correctly!! So the result is that the horn may well be subjected to frequencies it was not designed to reproduce. A lot of horns 'honk' when this happens.

IOW, horns got a bad rap on account of the fact that most of the old ones were not designed to work with transistors (in a nutshell).

Now the converse occurs when you use an amplifier with a high output impedance on a speaker that uses the Voltage rules in its design. For example, the woofer may well be seeing frequencies that the designer was trying to prevent it from seeing- perhaps an octave or two higher than it was supposed to go. This can cause the woofer to sound 'muddy'.

The bottom line here is that someone disparaging horns, amps with high impedance outputs, or planars and amps with very low outputs, **without taking these differences in design rules into account** is selling themselves short.

Now I am not an expert on the Avantgardes, but I can tell you that at least in the case of the Trio, it is one of the few horn speakers in high end that is designed to work with transistors or constant-voltage amplifiers. Consequently the task of finding a tube amp that sounds right on them is a big challenge. I suspect this is part of the reason why there are often blend problems when you try to use tubes on this speaker. So I have this advice: If you like tubes and you want a horn speaker, stay away from Avantgardes. It you already have an Avantgarde are you are trying to use tubes with it, now you know why its been so hard to find something that makes the drivers/woofers blend properly.

The primary benefit of horns is efficiency. They are also cool looking (but lets put that aside for now and just focus on function, not form).

The primary drawback is that doing full range horns well is difficult and expensive.

In the end I think its six or one half dozen of another.

You can get excellent sound and dynamics with or without horns, although the electronics required are likely to differ greatly.

Two totally different means to an end with different advantages and disadvantages, not just with the design of the speakers but the system as a whole.

Question: "What does one purchase after owning horns?"

Answer: Either better horns or other high efficiency speakers or most likely a completely different system end to end.

Shadorne you do not mention SPL level for conventional design distort much when near max SPL. Far more than a horn loaded design. I think maybe your looking for anything you can thats - about horn designs without understanding. A horn tweeter solves the distortion at higher levels as does not running loudspeaker into max SPL and using proper horn length flare. So horns are producing less distortion than conventional designs at most any SPL level. But if I knew little about horns or loudspeakers I would see the 20-30% distortion and run for the hills. So if you used proper horn flare and length didn't run at max SPL used a tweeters means no 20-30% distortion. Many conventional loudspeaker designs are producing 9-10% in low bass all the time no mater SPL. This is not a issue for horn loaded bass.

I would expect lower damping for the low end to be more sonically synergistic with horns and compression drivers than perhaps most others. I suspect it helps to loosen things up a bit overall and contribute towards lessening any edge in the sound that might be present otherwise.

Electronic music is often where the difference between a properly and under damped system can be clearly determined. Its perhaps where I hear the single biggest difference since moving to the small yet muscular still highly damped Bel Canto ref1000ms. Well recorded electronic music is totally controlled and visceral even at high volumes (at least with my OHMs) and truly hits you in the gut as it is designed to do without any mushiness, boom or other soft or looseness.

Here is some info on horns. Non-linear distortion in the compression chamber rises with output as well as with higher frequency and is exacerbated by long horns with less flare. Distortion can be as high as 20% or more in 2nd and 3rd order harmonics.

The non-linear characteristics may explain some of the challenges of integrating horns with a conventional (linear) sub woofer. As the level of the music changes from high to low SPL there will be a sweetspot where the balance is good. However, outside this range the balance may be off by a little.

This is simply for information JBL

The OP might consider horn designs with a much wider flare (or simply a waveguide) and accept a lower efficiency design (less compression). These type designs are more likely to integrate better with the bass over a broader range of operating SPL levels (less changes in tonal balance).

To try and put this damping factor in context for this thread, I had a very high damping factor amp (<1000) and popped in an SET with very low damping factor on the AG.

On the AG Trio, like most AGs, which use active subs driven at speaker level or line level, the damping effect was quite obvious. I could not say one was terrible and the other glorious, but I could say that for some types of music one could work better than the other.

The high damping factor made extremely tight low bass which had an air around it and gave an impressive listen, especially with electronic music.

But I must say when an SET with little or no damping factor was put in it had another effect. Yes the bass was less controlled, but the extra texture and ease of listening more than made up for the loss in grip. If listening to more acoustic music the low damping factor was quite desirable.

I couldnt say the bass was just muddy as it had a much more natural texture the high damping factor amps could not really do. Maybe some of this could be put down to the quality/capability of the amps. But all the amps I tried were up there!

The effects of a simple amp like a 45 tubed SET on speakers with this kind of sensitivity should not be underestimated. For all the talk of trying this speaker or that, it is one of the great freedoms of horns like these. Something which seems to be lost on most people. Very few can really enter this world without too many drawbacks with power.

As I explained before, if bass integration was the issue, then move up the AG range. You loved the AG you had apart from the integration of the sub. Besides why not add room correction to control any other possible bass issues?

There is an AG Duo here on the Gon for 8k. You will be done then.

The effect on a bass system of a low damping factor amplifier is the same as raising the electrical Q of the woofer. If the bass system is designed in anticipation of this higher electrical Q, then the result is proper bass response. If not, then "muddy bass" will likely result. So the fact that muddy bass is the result in some instances DOES NOT MEAN that such will be the case where the system is designed to work well with that type of amp.

Or to put it another way that may be more consistent with audiophile terminology, speaker/amplifier matching is important. And not just in the bass region - the interaction of the amplifier with the speaker's impedance curve has implications across the spectrum. But that's another topic for another thread.

Pryso, I did not mean to imply that a good horn system has a small sweet spot when set up properly. In fact, I believe that a good horn system is capable of having an exceptionally wide sweet spot if it's designed with that intention.

Jax2....Easy does it fella.....lol

Could you point us to examples of manufacturers or models that are well suited to a low damping factor amp (as a proud Atma-sphere S-30 owner I am quite interseted in your suggestions).

I've heard Ralph's amps sounding great with Classic Audio speakers (John Wolfe), on a few occasions. Oh my god, and they're horns too. I guess I need some Q-tips or a hearing aid, or else I'm just going to speaker hell (surrounded by horns of course).

Seriously - a fine combination with great synergy.

Being this is a horn thread of sorts, has anyone noticed in the virtual reality system section of Audiogon, the system/room of Cuong Pham. Talk about a horn......Wow....

Weseixas, you are quite right about damping factor. Early on, with a pair of Gale 401 speakers I had once owned, a Dyna 400 I had laying around made these speakers mushy, slow and ill defined. My Ampzilla really took control of the 2 eight inch drivers in those air suspension cabinets. The amps sounded quite different in other areas, but because of the low damping factor on the Dyna, I could not listen to it for long.

Clio09, the listening fatigue thing goes back to how the ear/brain system processes sound.

When a sound first reaches the ears, a copy of it is stored in a short-term memory. Then for the next twenty milliseconds or so, all other incoming sounds are compared with the sound(s) in our short-term memory, to see if they are NEW sounds or REFLECTIONS, that is, repetitions of the original signal. If they are reflections, then they're largely ignored as far as directional cues go. This is called the "precedence effect" or "Haas effect", after the researcher who first reliably described it. During this interval, reflections still contribute to loudness and perceived timbre.

Now the way the ear/brain system determines whether an incoming sound is a new sound or a reflection is by "looking" at its spectrum. If the spectrum is the same (or close to) that of a sound that's in the short-term memory, then it's a reflection. If it's obvoiusly different, then it's a new sound.

So, what about a reflection that's quite a bit different from the original? Well that hasn't been thoroughly investigated yet, but I believe we would find a continuum along which a spectrally-different reflection goes from "easy for the ear/brain system to correctly classify as a reflection" to "too distorted to be reliably classified". And I think that as the spectrum of the reflection differs more and more from that of the first-arrival sound, the more processing the ear/brain system has to do to correctly classify the reflection. In computer terms, it's like a task that uses up a lot of CPU power... and so the CPU heats up (we get a head-ache, after about 15 or 20 minutes): Listening fatigue. This isn't its only cause, but I believe it is a fairly common one.

Now remember that during the time the ear/brain system is ignoring directional cues from reflections, they are still contributing to loudness and perceived timbre. So a speaker may measure "flat" on-axis, but not sound "flat" because of the timbre-skewing contribution of the reverberant energy.

* * * *

Roscoeiii, I don't know the inner workings (including the impedance curve) of enough other manufacturers' speakers to give a really good answer to your question. Coincident comes to mind, and I think that KCS and PiSpeakers and Omega Loudspeakers and Tonian Labs are likewise strong candidates. Yours truly uses a variable-length port system so the box tuning can be adjusted for different amplifier damping factors (and different low-frequency acoustic environments).

Low damping factor gives you a muddy ill-defined bass not more Bass...

amazing !!!!

Duke, I realize you are not saying that horns "beam" when you mention "radiation pattern control", but that and other comments here seem to imply that a very limited sweet spot is produced by horn systems.

Admitting my own experience with horn systems is limited, I question this condition. I own a pair of rear loaded horns (C&C BEN) which may not qualify but a good friend first had AG Unos and now AG Duos. I believe his room is 20' wide with the Duos spaced by 10-11' with moderate toe-in. I can sit directly in front of one speaker and still hear a defined stereo image spread. This is not to suggest there is not a more precise soundstage presentation when seated in the middle sweet spot but in his room/set up I find his horns to present at least as wide of a good listening area as any box system I've heard in that room. Perhaps this is aided by the 4-5' separation from the side walls (a point which seems contrary to some other comments on horn systems).

If you would comment further it would be appreciated.

Duke,

Could you point us to examples of manufacturers or models that are well suited to a low damping factor amp (as a proud Atma-sphere S-30 owner I am quite interseted in your suggestions).

The low damping factor in effect changes the woofer's electrical damping in a way that increases bass output relative to what you'd get with a solid state amp. If the speaker designer anticipated this, he has tuned the box so that instead of the lower damping factor giving you a bass hump, it gives you more extended low bass.

I hear that:)

BTW Duke - the High Z output (12 ohm) won out.

I believe that minimizing the spectral discrepancy between the direct and reverberant sound reduces listening fatigue, and can explain why if anyone is interested.

Please do explain.

Shadorne - What I got from Renmeister's opening post was this: He sold his horns because he was unable to integrate the horn he loved with his bass output. So he went looking for alternatives and found no non-horns that matched what he had given up. That led him to ask for suggestions as to how he might overcome this seeming contradiction.

I think your ATC speakers might well be the answer but I'm basing that on reputation, having never experienced them myself. Most of the other realistic suggestions focused on other horn options or wave guides (another name for horns?) or highly efficient conventional models. And a few have mentioned ways he could use the speakers he no longer has more advantageously.

For the most part the thread has been constructive. But, as you suggested, Weseixas the Troll could not resist disrupting a thread about horns with his unwanted praise of all things planar. Unsound tried to resist corrupting for as long as he could but ultimately had to enter as well being as he is only human.

However, if we ignore their nonsense, there is no reason why this thread cannot return to its original constructive path.

If any of you feel certain that you do not like horns then go quietly in whatever direction you prefer. Those of us who do like them would like to have an adult conversation without your petulant interruptions.
Thank you for your co-operation in this matter. I promise not to invade your planar threads.

Renmeister, there is a "free lunch" available when combining low-damping-factor specialty tube amplifiers and speakers designed to work well with such. The low damping factor in effect changes the woofer's electrical damping in a way that increases bass output relative to what you'd get with a solid state amp. If the speaker designer anticipated this, he has tuned the box so that instead of the lower damping factor giving you a bass hump, it gives you more extended low bass.

Aside from dynamics, one of the things a good horn speaker does well is radiation pattern control, and as a result the reverberant energy in the room usually has a similar spectral balance to the first-arrival sound. This is one of the ways in which a good horn system emulates the behavior of live instruments, and is generally not a characteristic of more conventional speakers (though as one might anticipate from my post just upthread, there are exceptions!). I believe that minimizing the spectral discrepancy between the direct and reverberant sound reduces listening fatigue, and can explain why if anyone is interested.

Is it just me? I read the title of this thread, "What does one purchase after owning horns?", and thought the owner was looking for alternatives to horns but a speaker that retained many of the great things the OP likes about horns?

(and English is my first language...)

However somehow we ended up with a toddlers fight in a sandbox? I wonder how any of this is intended to help the OP or is it simply an outlet for those with anger management issues and baggage/agendas from previous threads (the last sandbox fight)?

Audiokinesis. Excellent observation and well to the point. Thank you !

Thank you Audiopheil and Jax2. Support never hurts !

Although you are a living and shining example of the Peter Principle.

I think there's even a bit of John Gabriel's theory at work right here on this illuminating thread as well.

I read a post a while back on another site that is worth reflecting on in all of this, who's worshiping the right speaker God, talk:

(big snip from larger post by DeadEars on Head-Fi.org)Language is really an imperfect tool for describing subjective reality. My audio system presents a set of stimuli (as does wine) which my brain interprets as a musical event. But of course it is simply an illusion, not really true, since I don't have live musicians playing in front of me. And who is to say that my illusion is better than your illusion? Hey it's happening in my head, right?

>>04-03-11: Weseixas
Audiofeil:
Things could be worst than working at Walmart<<

I suppose it could be worse (not worst as you write).

BTW, are you part and parcel to the class action suit where minorities (in your case whining little weenie white guys with no balls) have not been promoted?

Although you are a living and shining example of the Peter Principle.

Weseixas, P.S. The BC/Uno combo bash is not me. Sorry. Once again you are showing weaknesses in your reading comprehension, and you are getting us all confused. I hope you are a happy person and enjoy life, because you tend to "attack" quite a lot on Audiogon. I was going to ask who you represented at the show, but I don't care, because the system probably lacked dynamics.

Weseixas . I appreciate the response. It means I hit a nerve. Good. My comprehension is fine. Please read the original post again as to what is being said. I am a very bright 7th grader, but please let us know when you are on the show smarter than a 5th grader. I will place my bets. As far as the show, I never left the room other than a bathroom break, and the room was packed at all times. By listeners, not the police. Several other exhibitors stopped by and took a seat. I had people who had purchased cds at the show asking me to play a tune, which I did. It was a great show for us and much fun. But you keep bashing and insulting. A result of issues growing up I am sure. As a member of other forums, just a handful of you, and only on Audiogon, are many times out of line. But if you have a God complex, there are other forums about that subjet, not involving music listening. LOL

Just as disparaging general statements made about planars overlook some interesting exceptions, so too disparaging generalities about horns overlook interesting exceptions. Despite the title of the thread, I think it's well within the spirit of Renmeister's inquiry for horn advocates to reply with recommendations that are likely to have similar qualities to his present system but without the bass integration issue.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer

Hifisoundguy,

Are you saying the 901S6V2 was better than your horns, interesting...

regards,

Ohhh just in case you Horn zealots missed it, Renmeister has asked for other recommendations as he has moved on from owning horns and the tone is " jump back in " there is nothing betta ...

Check yourselves .................

I have never told anyone not to buy or use horns, unlike you I'm aware there are many who cannot live with the coloration, time and phase distortions of horns regardless of how much the music jumps out at them in the dark..

Regards....

Mrdecibel..

You need to work on your reading comprehension , but not to worry by the time you leave the 7th grade things might improve.

I was present and exhibited at the NYC stereophile show and the reason for the many request was due to the "noise" honking out of that room, nothing else, very annoying to all , not just exhibitors and i'm also very familiar with BC and on a uno, well let me just say you would have to be tone deaf to live with that combination..

Heck based on the "noise" you were making back then, for sure you are...

Audiofeil:
Things could be worst than working at Walmart, i could be selling used hi-fi for a living from my living room ......LOL

I use to own some vintage sansui sp-5500 horn speakers but now I have some BOSE 901 series 6 version 2 speakers that just came out a few months ago. These new and improved 901's sound very much like my friends QUAD ESL 2905's BUT my 901's can play louder and they also have a better bottom end too!

The Acoustic Horn AH 300 may be the best mid range horn available to mankind. The guys who designed and built the Cogent Field Coil driver chose it to showcase their product. You can have a pair custom built for you with adapters hand made for the drivers you choose to use for $2700/pair in maple. Other wood choices require a small upcharge.

Because this horn can reach down as low as 350 Hz. it is easier to integrate with your dynamic woofers than horns which have to cross higher.

In the context of high-end audio, this option is neither large or expensive -and the high efficiency allows you to use tiny amplifiers. My 15 watt amplifier loafs along.

I hope this helps you.

Weseixas, I believe it was you who said this was not a horn thread. If you read the original post by Renmeister, and I recommend you read it slowly or have some one read it to you, he is talking about 1 problem only. That was the integration or "coherence" of the bass to the horns. He does speak of attributes of what he enjoyed and speaks of weaknesses of things he has been listening to. I wish we can all be adults. Renmeister, maybe you should listen to a pair of Klipsch Lascala series 2. I believe they need to be raised off the floor (I like them with a slight tilt back) and you can keep them near the rear wall. Like any speaker, they will need room tweaking, but they might allow you to "get into the music" and forget about all this other BS. I am not suggesting they are the best, but at your price point you might be able to "stack a pair".

I have nver considered horns until I herd the Avantgarde Duo, and Duo Omega. They did all the hifi stuff, imaging, ect. and then there were dynamics and then more dynamics, micro, macro, speed of electrostatics, timber, harmonics to die for. There was not a trace of horn honking, shouty, edgy stuff that I associated with some horns in the 60's & 70's.
The only problem was the acoustic bass did not keep up with the lower midrange horn. Maybe it was the cross over point or the inability of the subs to cover high enuff. I for one could not get it right. God I tried.
Has any one herd the Devore Orangutan's? They may exceed my budget? But from people whom I trust they claimed they are well designed, efficient, with many of the attributes I enjoy. So they say!

Thank you all for the educational posts. Yes, I meant Eurythmie and I saw that posted system - looks very impressive. Well, we moved a little away from the OP but I think it is helpful; I would guess that not many have an experience with high-end horn speakers.

After reading all f the banter while listening to my a 1964 original pressing of A Love Supreme on my Uno's, I just want more. Chad's correct, get more Avantgarde and you'll be happy.

And remember....don't feed the trolls!