😁 funny thing about that...
What Does It Take To Surpass A SME V?
Thinking about the possibility of searching for a new tonearm. The table is a SOTA Cosmos Eclipse. Cartridge currently in use is a Transfiguration Audio Proteus, and it also looks like I will also have an Ortofon Verismo if a diamond replacement occurs without incident.
The V is an early generation one but in good condition with no issues. Some folks never thought highly of the arm, others thought it quite capable. So it's a bit decisive.
The replacement has to be 9 to 10.5 inches. I have wondered if Origin Live is worth exploring? Perhaps a generation old Triplanar from the pre owned market?
Any thoughts on what are viable choices?
241 responses Add your response
Dear @peterayer : You don’t specified under wich analog rig scenario you made your tonearm comparisons. Ideally comparisons must be doing using same TT/cartridge/phono stage, well same audio system.
It’s normal that 3 different tonearms with the same cartridge performs in the reproduced sounds in a different way with different kind of developed distortions/COLOR and is up to each one of us priorities in MUSIC at home but here maybe there are other cartridge surrounded room/systems differences in between. Stand alone the 3012R is the one with more differences between the other two: it’s not a VTF balance design, it use steel build material instead magnesium, bearing is different two using knife/ball and not well damped as the other two. For me the 3012 is the one that develops the higher distortions and nothing wrong with that if it’s what you like but with out any kind of preference bias the 3012 R is the worst one and today not true competitive if what we want is stay truer to the recordings.
R.
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I have the Graham Phantom. It is the best arm I've ever had. Very adjustable. The SME 5 is a good one. It will be hard to beat, though a Phantom II or the Kuzma would be ones to try. A friend has recently gotten a Kuzma, but I haven't heard it yet. He likes his Kuzma better than the Graham, though I imagine that they would be close. |
Yes, actually you did. ?? I'm ascribing this to an issue with your understanding how syntax in the English language works. Just so you know, your use of the colon in your quote suggested otherwise. The quote just above seems to confirm that for the same reason. |
This statement is false. I have not mentioned Mike in any way. But now that you brought him up, he has a friend that makes a much more expensive arm ($16,000 last I heard). It copies the Triplanar VTA tower but is otherwise different. I found it didn't play bass as well as the Triplanar and the Triplanar seemed more neutral so I still prefer it. What Mike likes is his business and I don't fault him for it. We have differing opinions but somehow remain cordial on the web and in person because neither of us find reason to level personal attacks at the other! You would do well to emulate his grace. |
I tried several arms when I got into the hobby, several decades ago, but at that time I judged the SME V to be the best choice and I still use them on a Sota Cosmos and a VPI TNT V in two of my systems. Setting up amd trying different arms with the same tables and cartridges is a lot of work and once you reach a conclusion you aren't anxious to do it all over again. I certainly agree that there are other arms out there that may be superior but I long ago stopped searching for the audio golden grail. |
Perhaps facts speak for themselves, but where are the facts in your insulting post? Also, I do not want to be dragged into defending the Triplanar. That has nothing to do with it. It is the manner in which you delivered your opinion. Don't you get that you are not the only one who can be insulted? You like to use the word "win". That is the problem; most of us are not trying to win anything. It's quite OK for you to point out whatever you think are the drawbacks of the Triplanar or any other piece of gear. I think we have a consensus that there is no such thing as "the best" tonearm or the best anything. |
@lewm , it was not. What I posted happened, it's his style: post after post till he think already win but in this isue has no reason to post and post and post and all because his friend and because he think is " the best tonearm " outthere. He has knowledge in tube electronic but certainly is not in that way with cartridges or tonearms, at least not as he think.
Lewm you only have to re-read again his statement in that post to know he is totally wrong:
" Back in the old days when the SME5 was first made, there were only three top arms; the SME5, the Graham unipivot and the Triplanar. "
In those times as today the Graham unipivot as all unipivots was a " terrible " tonearm ( a copy of the Audiocraft unipivot. ) but in those times were all the top Japanese tonearm designs where even today the Tri can't compete with.
So, lewm: waht are you talking about?
In the other side I'm not saying a negative comment on the Tri, things are that there are better tonearms andthat's all. Facts speaks by its self.
R.
R
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@atmasphere To have owned an arm for 15 Years and thoroughly enjoyed it is a real blessing. What is also quite interesting is that you deselected other Arms prior to your choice being made, that has proved to be a long-term relationship as the outcome. I myself at times, get a motivation for probing the next ’what if’, and on occasion a new gem is discovered. I would encourage a look into the Wire for the Arm that can be selected. If one can be discovered that is off interest, why not speak to the manufacturer about a Service for the Arm and to see if they would install a alternative wire to your choice. They may stipulate a dimension for the Wire, as a pinch point might be present in the wire route that may have a detrimental effect on the mechanical function of the arm. Suppleness is the key, and a Silicone Sheath is a superb material to achieve this. I am not aware of your Wire Preference for a Signal Path. I have not got a great deal of interest in Silver Wire, I have it as a through wire Pin Tags to RCA Phono as a Silver Litz Wand Wire and have used it as a OCC Silver Wire Cable DIN>RCA . The Cable is Superseded in use for a few years and the Tonearm is no longer used, unless to demonstrate the model to an individual with a interest in it. To be fair to the Tonearm, it is the overall performance of the Tonearm that has been the main reason for it to be removed from regular use, how much of this is attributed to Silver Wire is not entirely sure. Silver every so often has a presence that gets my attention, there is a SUT I intend on having a home demonstration from with Silver Coils, it will be a same Brand Copper/Silver A/B and then my owned Models in the Mix and a Head Amp. My gut feeling from my own experiences is that there is something more to be offered from your Tonearm, and it might be a simple affair to find a very satisfying move to a betterment. A incentive to update might be a retrospect incentive, when the impression is made from experiencing a choice for a change put in place. |
@neonknight I ran a Cosmos for quite a while with the SME5. Mine was an early Cosmos (serial number 0, the production prototype which was done entirely in white). The Cosmos had an excellent platter pad at that time, designed by Warren Gehl of Audio Research (before he joined them). This has been the most effective platter pad I've seen. I have one; Warren sold them directly prior to SOTA getting the contract for the product. Some of the recordings I use for reference are ones I've made. So I know what they sound like since I was there. Back in the old days when the SME5 was first made, there were only three top arms; the SME5, the Graham unipivot and the Triplanar. I tried all of them. The Triplanar proved itself the most versatile, being able to track a wider range of cartridges due to its greater adjustability. Since then the Triplanar has been improved and there are 3 models. I've yet to hear anything beat it. Its the only arm that can do what my master tapes do without coloration, showing that the LP was mastered properly. I've never been able to find anything that could make it mistrack. I've had mine about 15 years and I hear there's a new wire that might be a bit better, but I've not had much incentive to update- it works really well. One thing this arm really taught me is its much more important that the arm be able to track the cartridge properly than ultimately what cartridge you actually have. Anyone who does not understand that will be doomed to spending more and changing out cartridges much more frequently.
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With the present restriction to the SME Arms as a New Model, there is the situation where these designs do move to new owners without too much waiting. Staying with the SME will not remunerate funds to enable an alternate Arm to be considered, with the funds raised from the SME Sale. A Service won't do any harm, it will allow for it to be used once more in a improved condition, if it has a thorough cleaning of the areas that are needing to be mechanically free. It will also enable the assessment of the Arm to be a fairer comparison if the curiosity leads to experiencing other arms. The SME V will enable the replay of music very effectively, it will even do that with a pride of ownership, as the aspired to Tonearm is present. If moved on for a Arm that is a better performer to your evolved preferences born from the period of new experiences encountered. It will not take too many demonstrations to show where betterment is to be had. , Betterment is available, if using the accounts of others offering their subjective evaluations of other Tonearms impressions made in place of a V or IV. The Arm will be easily forgotten, it is only the Ego Born from the period of making such a purchase that will be sticky for a while. The Marketing and Collaboration with HiFi Media proved to be very good at making the SME V one to be aspired to. My IV is now viewed as a Cash Exchange for a Grandchild when Older if they do not want to keep it as a memory of GrandPops. The fact the Media in the UK took to being a 'Duck to Water' on the Subject of Refurbishing Idler Drives and the SME V or IV were the Arms selected by the Companies and Media to be the tool to rein in the Noticeable imbalance of Bass, the Arms were furthered in appeal as a result of this use. My closeness to this movement and extended communications about the Idler Drive TT, pretty much pointed to the Rega Arm, as being proven to do very similar for Bass Control to a Idler Drive by the DIY'ers, from the day. As a Commercial Venture for the Idler Refurb, the end product was being claimed by the Companies to trounce all TT competition, the snobbery of it all, and support from the media on such claims required a SME Price Tag, to further substantiate the claims and worthiness of the TT for such an Arm. This mental manipulation of the Marketing and the period of time where Media Support was on offer for the V and IV used with the Idler Drive sticks in many minds, even through to the present. I don't know of anybody who let the V or IV go, in either 9" or 12" that has pined for the return and rued the decision, in general there is decent remuneration and monies still spare, if a parity type arm is selected, a small top up in funds might be needed to purchase a New Model that has a better presentation, but if still considering a used Model from many Brands, there should be funds available to cover the Purchase. If I sold my IV, I would have approx' £1K profit if the funds were used to off set the against the purchase of the present used arm. |
Like you, I had an early SME V on a SOTA Star III, in use for over 30 years, serviced twice mainly just to clean and check. I replaced it with an AMG 9W2 which I managed to find used. It outperformed the SME in every respect except perhaps the bass where while more articulate, perhaps not quite as full. In truth, I did not notice this on the Kuzma TT which replaced my SOTA. Carts used in the last 5 years or so have been ZYX Airy3 and Dynavector XV-1s. Fast forward, I finally changed out the SOTA and went with a Kuzma Ref 2 on which I mounted the AMG arm. Quite frankly, I never missed the SME and sold it only a few weeks are getting the AMG. I eventually replaced the AMG with a Kuzma 4point11 as I wanted the arm to match the TT. I would not say that the Kuzma performaned better than the AMG. The setup for the Kuzma is easily faster and more repeatable but I think quite highly of the AMG. I sold it to a Garard 301 user and he loves the arm. |
Dear @neonknight : If you are satisfied with the V then stay with, however if it's the first V generation maybe could be fine that be checked for an expert to confirm if it's still in today V operation condition.
R. |
@neonknight In relation to your wondering if OL are worth exploring. The Tonearm I am familiar with for this Company is the Illustrious. SME OL and Audiomods are Companies that have their TOTL Tonearms from a certain era formed from using the Rega Design and Geometry. SME have remained Loyal to the Rega Geometry and maintained a Singular Material used for the Arm Wand. OL have maintained the Rega Geometry, but evolved to using Composite Materials for the Arm Wands t to the Higher End Models, but keep a Singular Arm Wand Material reserved for the lower in cost models. Audiomods have maintained the Rega Geometry, and have joined the competition with OL and have a Composite Material used for their Series Six Arm Wand. I own a SME IV, Adiomods Series V ( Singlar Material Arm Wand) and have been in the the company of the OL Illustrious on quite a few occasions. There is little if any real difference between the SME IV and Audiomods Series Five. Each are quite similar in all areas of a Vinyl Replay. When being demonstrated the OL Illustrious, there are sonics and a presentation I am quite familiar with, and this encourages me to feel the Three Tonearms are all much of muchness. When the IV and Series V have been compared to the Tonearm I am using now. The most noticeable difference is how constrained the IV and Series Five are perceived to be influenced, there seems to be too much imparted from the design as a control, which has come to be identified with as not for the better. When the restricted freedom is observed and the loss of detail from the recording is being witnessed is associated with the constrained manner the arm seemingly functions within, these arms can quickly become less attractive to a Arm in use that does not create this impression. The Arm in use today, leaves a really difficult assessment to discover where it might have a fault that is unwanted on the replay, the detail and structure of the recording are laid out to be experienced in a manner that is extremely attractive and more of the capabilities is wanted regularly. For me, after a long marriage to the SME IV and a Shorter Affair with the Series Five, it was a very easy decision to Separate from each of these and bring into the Set Up the latest Tonearm of Choice. Even better for when the HiFi System is set back up for regular use, the latest Tonearm of Choice has a few tweaks which I have been instrumental in having some of the latest additions developed, and been Party to the Demonstrations during changes put in place. I know there is the X Factor now available for this Arm, the sum of the Work undertaken has a finished function that is quite something and totally optimised for the already, very attractive and special design. |
Dear @rauliruegas , I have the impression that the internal wiring is Kondo and not Audio note UK. In any case this wiring is very sensitive (though matches arm perfectly) and requires extreme care when installing. This is one of the reasons I have not committed to this internal wiring change. |
@rossb kudos for the nod towards musicality :) @neonknight beaten surely but at what cost, right? Btw hello fellow Washingtonian! |
As there is no indicator the SME V under inquiry is owned, but only being considered and is a early version. A suggestion of alternatives is no harm. The used V Model being considered, if from the mainstream offerings is most likely $3500 - 5000ish There is a lot of options to be put on a list at this purchase point, even a New Model of another Brand in this price range. As said in previous Posts, if it weren't for the Rega Design being so successful and sought after, there would most likely not be a SME IV, V, 309, along with a host of others that poached the Rega Geometry and Design. |
Triplanar can't compete vs MAX 237 and I know that you have not the Proteus but an old one but as with the V are audiophiles that like the Tri. as like Schroeder or the Reed or the Kuzma or the OL, or this one where M.Fremer in his SAT DD XD-1 100K TT/SAT tonearm compared vs the RP 10 that comes mounted with this tonearm and Fremer mated with Lyra Atlas, Anna by Ortofon and some other top cartridges:
https://www.rega.co.uk/products/rb3000
R. |
Just to throw another name brand into the mix, Reed tonearms are very good. Schroeder tonearms are also superb but have a reputation for long wait periods if you order a new one. I have no basis to claim that any tonearm is "superior" to the SME V, because I don't own one and have heard it only in audio salons and at shows, which experience I judge to be a poor way to choose gear. Also, keep in mind that the cartridge (matching to the tonearm and SQ), the turntable, and the downstream system have everything to do with how we perceive the performance of a tonearm. Instead, I would look at features, like how easy is it to adjust overhang, VTA, VTF, azimuth, etc., along with quality of construction and design execution. |
Dear @neonknight : You can up-grade your " old " V with a new silver ( Audio Note UK silver wire.. ) internal rewirig that this time goes with connectors directly to your phono stage.
Other alternative and very hard to beat is that with the same recomended " treatment " look for the MAX -237 with the J removable headshell, an excellent tonearm.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
No Secrecy I have seen posts from neonknight and the info' offered may be well suited to their outlook on things. If the contact is made, all that will need to be made know to learn more will be offered for their own evaluation and appraisal. It is not hard to supersede in performance a Glorified version of a early Tonearm Design from the Company Rega. If Rega had the collateral in the early days of their becoming a Business, there 'may' have been Patents Present that would have stop most plagiarist's in their tracks. |
