Rick Beato’s examination of a song off Rubber Soul may help those who aren’t die hard Beatles fans understand why others are.
https://www.youtube.com/live/4CBa-whiUrQ?feature=share
What does it take to be a die hard Beatles fan?
I am the first to admit that I am a Beatles fan. And might even say that I am die hard. A recent film and recent album has me questioning the latter.
Peter Jackson's film "Get Back" and the 2022 "de-mixed" release of "Revolver" were both somewhat over the top for even a long time Beatles fan.
I had difficulty getting through both the film and the album.
Yes, it was pretty cool to get an inside look at the prep for the famous rooftop concert. But it became tedious to listen to all the "bla bla" in the studio and the endless fiddling of non Beatles songs.
Not to mention all that time "practicing" in the studio to come up with 3 or 4 songs.
And it was cool to hear the de-mixed versions of Revolver material, but 63 tracks with much relatively meaningless stuff took me 2 days to get through.
I certainly can appreciate the attraction to the behind the scenes things.
But neither the film or the album gave me much insight into who these guys are were/are.
The film was especially disappointing.
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The Beatles were masters of composing, arranging and producing records and George Martin was an important part of that machine. If you listen to their finished-but-rejected versions of Norwegian Wood and Ob-la-di Ob-la-da you will know just what amazing ears and high standards they had. Most other bands of the time would have been thrilled to have produced either of those tracks. The Let it Be/Get Back films show the process it takes to get there, minus the very important George Martin contribution. The results do not compare to other Beatles offerings and much of it is no more exciting than being at some other family's Thanksgiving dinner. I enjoyed the Jackson doc as it was so much better than the old Let it Be film (that one is more like being at another couple's breakup). The difference between the Let it Be and Abbey Road LP's is huge and it is because George Martin said, okay, we'll do another one but only if we do it the way we used to. I sometimes wonder if the White Album wouldn't have been better if they had taken George M's advice and made it one really tight LP instead of two. I don't think it's fair to compare George Harrison's guitar playing to that of Eric Clapton or Robbie Robertson. George was a master of short solos that were perfectly suited for the Beatles songs. Robbie and Eric can do that but they are accomplished jammers as well and George was not. That said, I love Robbie's playing but I don't think he comes off as well when side-by-side with Eric. Not many people can stand toe-to-toe with EC and look/sound good, although Jeff Beck certainly could. And Hendrix blew them all away. I appreciate all those guys for what each one brings to the table. Each has his own style and nobody does it all. |
Ive always said, if stranded on an island and had one band's music to chose, it would be Beatles. I know more about them than I need to know and they are one of the few bands where I enjoy every song on every album, minus a few. So, I guess Im a hard core fan. The movie Get Back , got boring. Maybe a much shorter version wouldve held my attention better. However, The Beatles Anthology doc was great IMO. No doubt, they were great song writers, broke new ground and influenced countless others. As a kid, my best bud and I listened to his bros vast Beatle & solo Beatles music alot. I do enjoy many bands and genres, but Beatles music has always been an enjoyable part of my life. |
Yeah, I’m aware of that. But somewhere along the line, the thought that EC also soloed in "Something" gained traction in my brain and never left. I have no explanation as to why/how. I was willing to accept that I was wrong without "proof" but thanks for the information ;o) BTW-- this revelation does nothing to dampen my enjoyment of the guitar work!
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@stuartk ”Because Studio Two was the only studio in Abbey Road with the new TG console, the mics in Studio One were patched into the Studio Two console for this session. Geoff Emerick and co-engineer Phil McDonald had visual contact via a closed-circuit TV. Harrison also rerecorded his guitar solo in Studio Two at this session. According to details on the tape box, the solo was recorded after the orchestra session was completed, but Emerick maintains that the solo was cut simultaneously with the orchestra and on one or both of the same tracks. “George certainly rose to the occasion and pulled it off brilliantly,” Emerick says.” |
@stuartk I share your assessment of “Sgt. Pepper.” You’re incorrect on the song, “Something,” by the way. George Harrison played that guitar solo. |
Somehow this got on the most tiresome of tiresome things: Eric Clapton. I get it. I too could have been a Baby Boomer. Spare me your Jann Wenner regurgitations, i.e. “he brought the blues to the masses,” “he was a sincere, serious student of the blues” (a hilarious thing to say about learning a I-IV-V chord progression and peddling stock minor pentatonic licks - a person is a ‘student’ of such for a month after they begin learning to play guitar, and that’s all folks…it’s like saying a guy who still mans the fry station at McDonalds after 25 years is a ‘serious student of the fry station.’), or “Eddie Van Halen said, ‘(blank),’” or “(so-and-so) once said, ‘(blank),” or, for the love of Christ, spare me, “have you ever heard Riding With the King?” (sweet bastard…puke). That’s cute and all that Rolling Stone told you he was #2 all-time (patently preposterous) after they deified him for 50 years prior, but he ain’t. I’ve never been good at self-promotion. Clearly people believe anything they read. I might have to stop by the hardware store tomorrow and pick up some spray paint…
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So, you were thrown out of a cult -- maybe not such a bad thing, in the long run! Musical taste is a funny thing. For example, I've read numerous reviews on Amazon by folks who "love" Clapton. They disparage Cream, Blues Breakers and Derek & Dominos while loudly proclaiming "Lay Down Sally" and "Wonderful Tonight" to be EC's best work. Apparently they don't enjoy his guitar playing very much, given their rejection of those recordings that feature him at his best in this regard. What can we deduce, then -- that they like him mostly as a vocalist ? I do not comprehend but boy, are they passionate!
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... to believe Sgt. Pepper’s was their best album? I get that it was groundbreaking at the time -- I loved it when it first came out (I was eleven years old) -- but in terms of songwriting craft, a majority of the tunes are mere ditties dressed up in psychedelic regalia, hardly examples of their writing at its best. However, this doesn’t seem to matter to its legions of admirers. By this rubric, therefore, I’m far from a die-hard fan. At this point, the White Album is the one I still list to the most, followed by Abbey Rd and Revolver. |
A while back I invited my 18-year-old grandson over to listen to music. Right off he said: “I don’t get The Beatles.” i was visibly shaken, and it took a few moments to recover and remind myself that I love my grandson more than I love the Beatles. Guess that makes me a die hard Beatles fan? fyi- 60 minutes later he “got” The Beatles. |
To answer the OP's question...when I found myself purchasing a couple of original 35mm slides of them in their heyday. What the hell do I need those for? They do look pretty good though, once I fixed them up in Photoshop. I guess I just wanted something unique that no one else owned. I remember (having seen them on Ed Sullivan), buying 'meet the beatles', growing out my bangs (which I had to comb back whenever my parents were around). Whenever I left the house the first thing I'd do it fling my bangs down over my forehead...heaven forbid!
https://ibb.co/0fWkTgM |
To answer the OP's question...when I found myself purchasing a couple of original 35mm slides of them in their heyday. What the hell do I need those for? They do look pretty good though, once I fixed them up in Photoshop. I guess I just wanted something unique that no one else owned. I remember (having seen them on Ed Sullivan), buying 'meet the beatles', growing out my bangs (which I had to comb back whenever my parents were around). Whenever I left the house the first thing I'd do it fling my bangs down over my forehead...heaven forbid! below are links to those photos I mention. https://ibb.co/0fWkTgM |
Thanks for the background on your listening history with Clapton. I recall reading one interview in which he described his musical taste as "schmaltzy". Maybe that explains some of the post-Layla records? Ah, OK. I really don't know anything about Harrison's relationship to SRF, other than seeing photos of him wearimg a Babaji button. I went down there several times for services in the mid 70's before they built the new temple. It's an inspiring place, for sure.
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@whart: Bill, I find your summary of the solo writing of Lennon and McCartney right in line with my opinion. Let’s see if you too get attacked for not considering The Beatles above all criticism. I saw The Beatles live in ’65 (at The Cow Palace in S. San Francisco), and was underwhelmed. I actually was more impressed with the opening act, Sounds Incorporated, a UK band with a horn section. Very exciting! The Beatles live on the rooftop? Sorry, they just don’t sound very good. To me, at any rate. Of course by the time I saw that performance, I had already seen The Band live (and Procol Harum. And The Kinks. And Albert King. And Jeff Beck. And dozens more.). Absolutely no contest. ;-) |
I never considered myself a die hard Beatles fan though I remember seeing them on the Ed Sullivan show back in the day and of course have a fair number of their albums, not the early Parlaphones but the Blue Box, the Mono Box and a few others. One, which was a kick, was a certain German pressing of Die Beatles which was hard panned left and right. Rumor had it that the UK shipped Germany a copy of the raw two track transfer rather than the finished mix. It does have a wiiiiiiide sound. I worked on a project some years ago involving a videotape of their first live concert appearance at the Washington DC Coliseum, which wasn’t really a concert venue, more like a basketball court. The band was set up on a small rotating stage that didn’t work, so stage hands had to rotate it manually. What blew me away was how in tune those guys were- no stage monitors, no ear pieces, and their harmonies were spot on. They were very tight too. At the time, they were still doing old rock and roll covers among some of their original songs. I find the phenomenon of The Beatles fascinating as a cultural matter- it was really time and place, though they worked extremely well together as musicians. And I never found fault with the joint writing of Lennon and McCartney, though I found that their solo work tended to be too weird (Lennon) or too saccharine (McCartney) with a few exceptions. They also seemed to have the right personalities to be celebrities at the time, again, maybe a matter of being in the right place/time. I don’t listen to them much these days, but every once in a while I’ll pull out a record. There’s a Russian (Soviet era) compilation with a Taste of Honey that is surprisingly good, also from the early era as far as I know. |
@stuartk: I became an instant fan of Clapton upon hearing Eric Clapton & The Powerhouse on the 1966 Elektra Records album entitled What’s Shakin’, the first time I had seen his name (I and those I knew didn’t yet know Clapton is heard on about half the songs on The Yardbirds For Your Love album, which we all loved. Neither his name nor picture appear on that album). What’s Shakin’ is a various artists compilation album featuring The Lovin’ Spoonful (front cover of the LP) and The Paul Butterfield Blues Band (back cover), Clapton & The Powerhouse contributing three songs, including a 2:32 length studio recording of "Crossroads" (I prefer this version to the live Cream one). I then followed Clapton into John Mayall’s band, Clapton’s guitar playing on Mayall’s debut stunning me. Before I knew it, Clapton had formed Cream, of whom I was a huge fan. I loved the first and second Cream albums, seeing them live on their first two U.S. tours. But as I have chronicled a few times (apparently to the chagrin of rpeluso ;-), that all changed in the Summer of ’69. Unbeknownst to me, the same happened to Clapton. His from hearing Music From Big Pink, which was way over my head in 1968. But by Summer ’69 I got it, and my musical taste underwent a radical change. I wasn’t much of a fan of Psychedelic music, which is why I found amusing how Atlantic Records President Ahmet Ertegun characterized Cream’s Disraeli Gear album when it was submitted to him: Psychedelic horsesh*t. ;-) You can hear the change in Clapton’s playing in "Badge" (good song), the last Cream song I bothered listening to. Clapton disbanded Cream, and went off in his new direction, which was to my ears more musical. Up to that point a Blues purist, he opened up to other influences, including what can be called Country Blues. The Band didn’t fulfill Clapton’s ambition to be a member of that ensemble, but Delaney & Bonnie gave him a job as a sideman. Clapton derailed his career a few times (post-Derek & The Dominos), but has kept at his craft his entire (so far) life. George Harrison for the most part didn’t. After being in The Beatles, that is completely understandable. If this post strikes one as being done to make myself appear any certain way, oh well. |
I mean the garden and I mean he went there a lot and supported it financially. Whether he had any input into the garden ($, design, etc.) I don't know. I just imagine in a whatever vague, spiritual sense he did. I go there a lot but it doesn't mean I know a lot about it so feel free to correct or ignore me. |
@stuartk I mean he was very involved with the development |
There’s somewhat of a parallel in the life of John McLaughlin who became a dedicated student of, I believe, the vina (someone correct me if I’m mistaken). It got to the point where decided he had to drop the vina because he felt, deep down, he was a guitar player and that he was in effect "betraying" himself by allowing the vina to seduce him away from guitar. Your "Blues above all else" assertion about Clapton makes me curious about your definition of Blues. Any min pent based soloing? It seems to me he was able play very melodically at times. Since the focus of this thread is the Beatles, I’ll point to Clapton’s solo on "Something" as a primary example. From my perspective, There are others as well, sprinkled throughout his discography. But, as I acknowledged, our respective conception of "Blues" may differ. I'm no EC fan-boy. In the panoply of British guitar players, I'd place many above him. Still, I believe he deserves credit where credit is due. |
The most interesting part of the movie to me is hearing George say that the best band he’s ever heard was that of Ray Charles. Levon Helm was of the same opinion. @stuartk’s mention of George’s gardening is apt. George talked about not practicing guitar anymore after a certain point (i.e. when he picked up the sitar, from where came my comment about his interest in and focus on that obnoxious-sounding instrument---imo---ruining his guitar playing), and of not being motivated to keep progressing like his pal Eric was (not everyone agrees with that assessment of Clapton). Harrison’s guitar playing in The Beatles is a model of musical taste, of playing for the song. As I said, his solo in "Nowhere Man" is a very favorite of mine. That style of guitar playing unfortunately became passe in the latter half of the 60’s, ironically because of the rise in Rock music of the style in which Clapton himself played: Blues above all else. But after The Beatles? George was indeed more interesting in gardening than anything else, including music. At least he went out well, The Traveling Wilbury’s being delightful. Actually, in his latter years it was ukulele George was playing, not guitar. Ya know, Lennon was not shy of expressing his opinion of Harrison’s singing, which was rather brutal. I’d rather listen to George’s post-Beatles singing than Lennon’s, and yes I realize that is a minority opinion. In his defense, at least George didn’t call his wife "mother". Now THAT is pathetic.
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@mikelavigne perfectly said! My all time favorite is Abbey Road and until I learned that Let It Be wasn't their last album I used to be confused. Their evolution heard through their albums is pure magic. |
@stuartk "his" meditation garden in Encinitas is still a paradise to all who live nearby |
@bdp24 the way you are trashing all 4 of them (but mostly 3) is painful and pathetic. I know we should try to be objective but e.g. Paul never stopping writing and recording music every decade and still going, as good as or way better than his contemporaries. No need to argue with me, I don't play any instruments, and I was never on a first name basis with Eric C. or Tom P. I JUST enjoy their music, written together, apart, rooftop, studio or whatever.... |
@tylermunns + 1 |
@bdp24 “Q: What could possibly support such a statement? (‘sitar ruined George as a guitarist.’) A: I listen to Dave Edmunds, Albert Lee, Ry Cooder, Richard Thompson, and dozens of other better guitarists…” The fact that you, I’ve been a professional, multi-instrumentalist musician (lead vocals, harmony vocals, lead guitar - I’m damn good, too - bass, and piano - plus, a band leader/arranger/musical director of multiple 3.5-hour-long shows of 15+-piece ensembles of 7-piece string sections, 5-piece woodwind sections to guitars, keys, bass, percussion and 5-part vocal arrangements) for over 20 years.
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@tylermunns: The fact you ask that question is evidence you know nothing about being a musician. In interviews Harrison candidly admitted he had not continued in his pursuit of guitar playing after picking up the sitar, as I already said stating he had not picking up a guitar for a number of years (’67-’69?). When he went on tour in the mid-70’s, George hired Robben Ford (whom I saw and heard numerous times while he was living in San Jose, before he moved down to L.A.) to play guitar, George himself concerning himself with embarrassing stage "theatrics" (videos available for painful viewing), perhaps in an effort to distract from his dreadful vocals. I don’t take pleasure in dissing George; he was always my favorite Beatle. As far as I’m concerned, The Traveling Wilburys was the best post-Beatles work any of them did. And then there was was John Lennon, who subjected us to his "Primal Scream" therapy recordings (how anyone can listen to his first album is beyond me), crying about his mommy abandoning him. Oh for God’s sake John, have you no shame? And McCartney, whom, freed from John’s acerbic input, was set free to sing his sappy, corny, British Music Hall ditties (which infect the Sgt. Pepper and White albums). Plus, he had his wife Linda "singing" in his band (have you heard the live recordings of Wings?!). Did Paul feel obligated to do so, as John had Yoko Ono "singing" in his band? By the way, when John needed a backup band, whom did he hire? Elephant’s Memory, a truly pathetic group. From The Beatles to Elephant’s Memory, quite a downgrade in bands. At least Ringo had the good sense to head to Nashville (for his Beaucoups Of Blues album), to record Country music with the cream of that cities studio musicians (most of whom had already been heard in Dylan’s fantastic mid-60’s recordings). And when Ringo recorded his 1973 self-titled album, he enlisted members of The Band, about whom I need not heap praise (everyone already knows Eric Clapton dissolved Cream after hearing Music From Big Pink, thereafter traveling to West Saugerties in hopes of The Band asking him to join. Uh, no thanks Eric, we already have Robbie Robertson). As even you @tylermunns can see, I’m WAY ahead of you. Now stop wasting my time. |
@hoosierinohio Very well put!
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@bdp24 You didn’t answer the question. |
@nakam I included “I Should Have Known Better” from A Hard Day’s Night. |
Q: What could possible support such a statement? A: A listen to Dave Edmunds, Albert Lee, Ry Cooder, Richard Thompson, and dozens of other better guitarists. Prior to Sgt. Pepper Harrison was a favorite of mine, his solo in "Nowhere Man" is in my all-time top 10 (even though it is very similar to James Burton’s in Ricky Nelson’s "Young World", another favorite of mine). He was never again that good, and in numerous interviews talked about not even picking up a guitar for years. Unlike some, I don’t mind others having an opinion divergent from mine. It’s all about what we listen for in music. Why should we expect to agree on everything? For some reason I admit to not understanding, people become very defensive when it comes to The damn Beatles. And with that final comment (made in violation of my vow to rpeluso), I bid you all adieu. I have obviously overstayed my welcome. ;-) |
So, you watched them bake a cake without Julia Child's doing the dialog. Sorry it was boring. Although the cake was really good. To take them as peaking at a point or whatever, I can't go there. To me they were always evolving. Their ability at convergence was second to none. They layered solo's better than anyone. Their vocals, unbelievable. Individual ability, I don't think any of them could read music but they all contributed beyond so many others. Look at some of Ringo's solos (microphone is a suitcase), Paul's bass on Sun King, George was as good or better than any lead guitar, I loved the sitar and the desire to go beyond a standard western beat and John's poetry was on par with Morrison, Keats, Byrne or Lewis Carroll (Jabberwocky a personal favorite). At the end there was divergence. That divergence was its own and I love it. Everyone wanted them back together. That could only happen as their evolution allowed. Free as a bird, to me was like watching grand great elephants coming in to mourn the loss of one of their great ones. We had some convergence, it was nice. Now, lets talk about some "other" bands. Did their sound evolve? The Beach Boys, perhaps. The Stones, nope. Bruce, nope. Name another band that evolved as much. I have to go to Dave Brubeck and his differing time signatures. In summary I am thankful for the Beatles and all they did. They had an alien probe up them 24/7. This was a picture into their daily in a bakery making bread. It's okay. I would love to see this for Beethoven, but I guess that's not possible. Me, I would prefer to just enjoy and not worry too much about an extra added whatever. Be happy, peace and love. |
@bdp24 “That damn sitar ruined George as a guitarist” What could possibly support such a statement? “John & Paul increasingly wrote apart not together (they really needed each other, the whole being vastly greater than the sum of it's parts)” - P.S. I Love You (Paul) I think either John or Paul, whether it was early days, middle days, later days, or solo days, did okay on their own. |
Speaking of the non-Beatles songs they play in the studio rehearsals for the rooftop performance: In his YouTube review of the movie, Rick Beato (whom I really like) marvels at how many songs The Beatles know (referring to the "oldies" they attempt to play). Well, they sort of remember those non-Beatle songs, but they certainly don’t perform them very well in those studio recordings. I know they were just "fooling around", but still. Their performances of those songs imo provide ample evidence that my assertion The Beatles were not a very good band---strictly in terms of being "a band"---is plainly obvious. You may disagree. It was their songs that made them great, not their abilities as a band. IMO, of course. Most Rock bands are better at being a band than they are at songwriting. With The Beatles (no pun intended ;-) the opposite is true. |
I'm a huge Beatles' fan too and I totally agree with you. Maybe I just like to eat the bread and not take a complete tour of how bread is made, from wheat field to reaping to grinding to...etc. I mean, the songs are the point for me, not the hagiography.
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@jasonbourne71 - I was watching the Beatles on Ed Sullivan that night with my parents and some other family friends. Of course, my father said something like 'Maybe Ed will pay 'em enough to get haircuts...' . |