Western Electric 300B problem

Forgot to mention unusual smell at both initial start ups, don't know if this from the single bad tube or both.

pops and tings can happen the first time a tube heats up. Loss of vaccuum is the correct diagnosis. Sounds like a bathtub curve infant failure. Most tubes don’t make an unusual smell when heated up but I’ve never heated up a new Westinghouse.  If something is going to burn off a substance used in the manufacture, it will do it the first time it is used.  I’d mention this when I contact the warranty representative.

Now you get to see how good and convenient the warranty is. Please report back.

Jerry

Some tubes fail early. Not often, but they are not like iPhones and computers. It happens occasional... especially after shipping. There is a whole bunch of suspended stuff, in a vacuum, with a lot of heat. So, I would not condemn the brand. Just get a replacement. And, with tube equipment you should always have a spare tube set. Just in case something comes up, you can swap out your tube set and evaluate the problem.

I run over fifty tubes(on a daily basis) and have only gotten a whistle in a tube getting close to the end of its life three years ago and one dead on arrival five years ago.

I had a heater die (go open) lately on an 80 year old tube.

Thing is I  heard WE had recently improved evacuation equipment, this failure betrays that. This also not the first I've heard about gassy WE300B's, red plating has also been an issue with higher plate voltages of some amps. Max rating on Acme 480V, WE450V.

Never had an issue with 300B tubes prior to this in either my 300B monoblocks or as drivers in my 845 SET amp. Shuguang and Acme's. I've had some failures with 101D tubes in my pre, both Linlai and Psvane.

I'll just go back with Acme's in amp, have absolutely no issues of any kind, sound quality fantastic, just wanted to hear what WE brought to the table. What I heard in first five hours was very nice, just a bit rolled off on top, darkish tonality, resolution/transparency very nice, right up there with Acme.

Have you compared EMLs?  I use those in my dac.  where do you buy your ACMEs?

A brand new tube is mostly to fail during the first 10 hours of use. 

Warning, if you are going to buy expensive new production tubes for investment or future use, burn them in during the warranty period before you put them away.

I am about to buy the WE300B because of the discount.Then suddenly I remember reading some issues? I decided to research more ? Then this thread. So no for now. If I ever decide I will buy from Uncle KEVIN AT upscale audio , I will request to test them before shipping.I bought tubes from them, pricey but I have good experience from them. The last 8 tubes I bought for my Tsakadiris Alexander preamp  are excellent.

I've had the newer WE 300B tubes for a couple of years now and they work and sound amazing; no problems at all, and would buy again in a heartbeat. The warranty on these tubes is 5 years, provided you sent in the warranty card when you got the tubes. 

@jayctoy I purchased these through Upscale.

In ruminating on this overnight I've pretty much decided to forego another attempt with these tubes for the following reasons.

1. On considering odd smell on startup this may have been burning insulation, perhaps a transformer, perhaps a resistor, who knows. Whatever, the sense it was heat related smell can't be good. Until I fire back up with Acme's in place this all speculation. In any case the fear of amp failures due to bad power tubes is well founded in my case as I'll explain below.

2. These WE 300B's are absolutely the noisiest tubes with inrush current I've ever heard, and this with many 845, EL34, KT family, 6550, any and all signal tubes. I understand that metal expands with heat but this level of noise is unprecedented in my case.

3. Don't like how WE handles 5 year warranty. Non-transferable. Worse is the ten day limitation on submitting warranty card registration for the warranty. So it takes four days shipping for tubes to reach me which leaves six days to get registration to Georgia.

4. I've been using 300B tubes for aprox. ten years, in all that time I've closely watched for reviews and personal experiences with all the premium 300B's. The three brands I've most often seen reliability issues with are the WE's, Takatsuki and earlier iteration of Elrog. The only Acme failures I've seen were with a limited run of Line Magnetic amps. Now, I understand anecdotal evidence doesn't tell us about failure rates but still its concerning. I also understand some equipment run tubes hard, excessive plate voltage could be responsible for tube failures.

5. Following experience has greatly affected me, first time I've spoken of this in any forum. Around a decade ago a bad 845 output tube took out my amp. This resulted in a nearly three year nightmare, amp suddenly disappears at authorized tech for nearly two years, this after payment of nearly $3k for repairs. Amp finally appears on my doorstep over two years later in what is supposedly good working order. I open the box and to my horror appears a completely demolished amp, thick stainless steel casework just completely knackered. Of course amp has completely same issues as prior and now I have totally destroyed casework. Over the course of these years I had constantly and consistently tried to contact authorized repair facility, I also contacted local (to tech) police and lawyers. Every avenue to make things whole was going to be big hassle. And then the physical damage, how does a totally demolished amp arrive in a perfectly good box, and packed like crap. Shipper denies responsibility as does tech. The blame game goes around and around. In the end I completely lose full retail value $18k amp, around $3k shipping and repair bill, cost of replacement amp. Thank you WE for bringing back bad memories I'd rather forget.

@carlsbad2 I purchased Acme's through Woo Audio. Based on my research can't recall a single failure with either of the EML. The XLS version is likely the only 300B able to survive some of the high voltages some of these amps are running. 

@testpilot You are correct, the reason I watch very closely at startups with new tubes, especially power tubes, you can take out the entire amp as I can well testify to! Hopefully this will turn out to be for the best as the instant I saw tube go entirely blue and a single pop amp was shut down.

I use Takatsuki 300B. Probably the best sounding. Highly recommended. I’ve used mine for a few hundred hours.

SNS did upscale help you to get a brand new tube?

I have contacted Upscale, immediate response on a Sunday! Explained the symptoms and sent a photo of tube, Jordan supposed to get back with me tomorrow. WE states returns should go through dealer if purchased at a dealer, returns direct to them for direct sales.

My take on 300B premium tubes based on reviews and individuals experiences is that all have very nice sound quality, all seem satisfactory for users. Reliability is the sole issue I see with them. Question is whether this  equipment or tube design issue?

@sns 

sorry to hear about your horror story. I have both Takatsuki and EAT 300b’s. My preferred tube is the latter: Built like a tank and in my Wvac EC300b simply the most powerful and dynamic. If WE can’t be bothered to test their tubes before shipping I wouldn’t bother either. Hopefully you get a refund and can move on

@antigrunge2 WE does test each tube and provides a test certificate with each tube, my test date 9/18/2024 so these quite recent builds. Further, Upscale claims to burn in all power tubes for 72 hours. If this true, I was hearing these tubes with a decent amount of burn in, not fresh out of box as I had assumed.

Having just held both WE and Acme in hand substantial difference in weight, Acme much heavier. Thicker glass and more substantial base accounts for the weight difference. Acme has gold plated pins, WE nickel?

@sns  Interesting that upscale burns in expensive new tubes.  There are those that say tubes "should not be shipped after they have been used as the heat makes the filaments more brittle".  I think if you can ship them before making the filaments glow, it is a good idea.  that said, I buy a lot of used tubes and generally, almost always, don't have a problem.  

There is no way Uncle Kevin is burning in WE 300B's. Possibly if they have been purchased, and then only if by request. 

I would pay attention  to what @ghdprentice said as I would bet he has tried almost all of them.  

I’ve used two pairs of the new WE 300Bs in my Elekit TU-8600S and have had no issues, just absolutely unmatched wonderful sound quality.

 I would be amazed if they didn’t give you a prompt warranty replacement.

@SNS Sorry to hear of your bad luck and you have my sympathy. I’m sure most people on this forum have experienced this kind of frustration and disappointment and it’s not fun at all.

   I have 4 WE 300B’s that I bought from Upscale. They have been flawless. They were noisy the first time I fired them up and they did emit a slight odor. That scared me. After that it has been smooth sailing and I like them. However, my amps came with Shuguang’s top of the line 300B’s. Just to see if I could tell a difference I re-installed them last Spring. To my great surprise I liked them better. This is not a dig at WE, those tubes are wonderful but I’m slightly happier with the Shuguangs.

Upscale states on their website and with a sheet I received with tubes, "Every power tube is burned in for 72 hours before matching",  I believe this based on my initial listening session. Having forgot this I was extremely surprised on 'mature' presentation, having much experience with tube burn in via exclusive use of tube pre's and amps since 2000 these didn't present as fresh out of the box tubes. Wonderful mids, pretty extended on top, open, transparent, these are not attributes I generally find with new tubes. I was extrapolating a fully burned in presentation as I listened,  something I never do with fresh power tubes, in other words I found these something near final presentation. On one hand I understand finding offense with this as tubes have limited life spans. On the other hand, this is good thing, should assure better matching and less early tube failures/returns from end users.

@mwood The fact you also experienced the odor is somewhat reassuring. I've never smelled this odor prior with these amps, hard to describe the smell.

Audio Research burns in for 48 hours and does extensive testing before shipping or selling. 

Blue glow = good thing, in fact sign of a good vacuum of a power tube. I have several NOS 6L6 and 6550 that have a beautiful blue glow. However, never seen blue glow with any of my new production 300b, Gold Lion, LinLai, Shuguang, or KR Audio.

Vacuum loss very apparent if gettering turns white and flakey. Otherwise doesn’t sound like a vacuum loss. I’d expect Upscale Audio will take care of you given their reputation. Have you emailed WE? Maybe a common burn in symptom? Although burning smell not good! 

Best of luck, let us know how it turns out.

Transparent blue glow that's generally found at top of tubes is something I often see. This was a sudden flash of extremely opaque or fog like blue that enveloped entire tube, this accompanied by a loud pop through loudspeakers, I wasn't going to wait for further events, amp immediately shut down! This happened perhaps five minutes after firing up both monoblocks, had just taken pre out of mute, very low volume level, didn't hear any noticeable distortion, music playing right up to point of blue flash and pop.

Forgot to mention. No white, flaking on getter, I too have seen this with some 101D tube failures. The other thing which I've failed to mention is mechanical noise from failed tube when first picked up, not that this is completely unknown previously, just noted from the beginning,

In regards Upscale, just received my Return Authorization. I explained symptoms and sent photo, they agree tube defective.

Good news! I hope this completely solves the problem.