I've extensively listened to the MAN 301 with CD ripper, streamer and built in previous model DAC and it was very, very good. I didn't buy it however because there's better capabilities and value available.
Chinese DACs is where it's at now.
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@jerryg123 Most of those brands will most likely be acquired by the Chinese in the near future. They have already bought many audio companies. As a biker you must be aware they also own Pirelli. Sit back and enjoy the music. |
Quad from the UK is now Chinese owned I understand and Musical Fidelity was recently sold to an Austrian company which is probably Chinese. It's just the way things are. Have a look, and I'm not promoting them, at the quality of the DACs they are producing. Holo May, Denafrips and Musetec are the leaders at the moment and they sell factory direct which means a saving of 40-50%. They are no longer cheap and low quality. |
Tell me please, why do you think that a country that annually graduates about 10 times the number of engineers than we do in the US cannot develop a top of the line DAC? See Holo, Musetec, Denafrips, . . . . . . . . more to come. Western producers of over-priced DACs, and we can all name them, look out! |
@melm did I say that? No I did not. And there many European companies making top line DAC’s So enjoy your day. BTW Denafrips just had a price increase. Engineers do not build DACs in China slave labor does. Engineers in China reverse engineer Western products, enhance them to a degree and sell them in the West. Also the DAC was invented by an American.
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@lordmelton Musical Fidelity was produced in Taiwan prior to purchase. ProJect is the owner and their OEM for electronics is Canor in Slovakia and my understanding is that production will be moved to Slovakia in time. I am the importer for Canor brand products and sell MF. Regarding the Weiss, I have it here feeding an Art Audio Diavolo directly. The volume control is very good. Because you can adjust the DACs output, it is relatively easy to get a good match with a power amp. The high sensitivity of the Diavolo makes it a tough match. That being said, I would echo @metaldetektor that it is an excellent unit that leans toward the analytic side of things. It is highly detailed though and does really deliver a big soundstage. I am a dealer for Weiss and have it on display.
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@verdantaudio So? What are you saying/ Have I contradicted myself? Musical Fidelity WAS a great brand under Anthony Michaelson now it'll most likely go down the poop chute so good luck with that. Distribute the hell out of it. Regarding Weiss did I not say it was a very, very good DAC? Better and cheaper alternatives elsewhere especially China and even Cyprus..lol. Distribute the hell out of Weiss too, I ain't buying. |
@melm This is exactly what I said.
May be the rage for cheap.
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@lordmelton I communicated my point poorly. All I was doing is providing information as to where the product is produced. You suggested China which is not accurate. Not making any judgements on your POV otherwise. Looking back on the post, I should have inserted the OPs @ prior to "Regarding Weiss". That part was intended for the broader conversation, not directed at you explicitly. |
@verdantaudio I have never disputed the build quality or sound quality of Weiss they are a high end brand but the World has moved on. Look on the forum this is the only thread about Weiss while there are many threads about the Chinese DACs. Anthony Michaelson was a pioneer in mid to hifi and I personally own many of his products. I never cared where he produced them they were always of great quality and technology. What I believe is that the group who bought Musical Fidelity is Chinese backed, unless you can trace all the directors this cannot be proven. However Anthony was a hero. |
@lordmelton Musical Fidelity is owned by Heinz Lichtenengger The CEO and founder of the coveted Pro-Ject Audio Systems brand, Audio Tuning are truly independent - keeping Musical Fidelity firmly within the audio industry, avoiding the loss of another precious brand to an investment group or faceless multi-national corporation.
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The OP isn't asking about bang for the buck, but I suppose it's an inevitable consideration... The top Holo DAC ($5800+ shipped, as of today) plus a decent network bridge (say a Lumin U1 mini at $2100, a Bricasti M5 at $2500 or an Auralic Aries G1 at $2900) puts you well into, or even well beyond, the price range of some excellent US and European-made DACs. Such as the Weiss. The Weiss has a great streaming function built-in. Holo/Denafrips do not. Bricasti, Totaldac, Meitner, Sonnet to name a few offer *network-capable* DACs at a price point that is less than or not far above a top Holo/Denafrips DAC that adds a quality separate streamer. Most of the N.A./Euro names above (not Weiss and not 100% sure about Meitner, but certainly their flagship brand EMM Labs is) are also *upgradeable* so you don't have to sell your DAC or streamer at a loss when further digital advances are made. So in the long-run, are the non-modular, non-streaming Chinese DACs actually a better value? In the end, find the gear that lets you enjoy your music the way you want to enjoy it, and it'll feel like money well-spent. I just don't buy the cliche that these Chinese DACs are really cheap, and N.A./Euro stuff is way overpriced. One needs to look at the real prices, features, and upgrade (or not) capabilities before jumping to conclusions. And of course listen in your own system to how they sound... |
@metaldetektor Oh sorry bang for my buck was 12 grand US for an Aurender N20 I could have spent more and gone for the N30 but I'm happy, very happy with the N20 and it's a one box solution which I like. If you think I'm cheaping out good luck to you with your Roon and Nodes and other assorted shite. I'm a best quality guy and if that comes from wherever I'm on it, Thank you very much. |
@lordmelton that wasn’t directed at you specifically, just a general note. Happy listening. |
When you start mixing in ignorant politics, I lose patience and interest. Over and out! Who said a freaking thing about politics? Guess reading comprehension is an issue eh? I don't think you were ever tuned in.
@melm This is exactly what I said.
May be the rage for cheap.
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If you are talking about this: It is not politics it is HUMAN RIGHTS. AND FACTS @melm did I say that? No I did not. And there many European companies making top line DAC’s So enjoy your day. BTW Denafrips just had a price increase.
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Your point about the many functions of the Weiss compared to the single function of an Asian DAC is well taken. Having an all-in-one unit will be attractive to many audiophiles. However, you picked about the most expensive Asian DAC for comparison. Also whether the Weiss functions actually are as good as the suggested alternatives is another question. There are also less expensive excellent alternatives. Moreover when you go the all-in-one route you are stuck with the upgrades that company makes available at the price they choose. Many, like me, will always choose separates. A major technology advance in those functions, or the most cost-effective advance, may not come from the maker of your all-in-one component. |
You have to first of all understand that Daniel Weiss is a well known and respected name in pro audio. Even though he has an “audiophile” line of products addressing the home user, the company is heavily invested and primarily focused on pro audio. Their 202 was a Minerva in different clothes. And although I have never heard a 501, because I had a 202 I would like to share a few thoughts. Like some of the better pro audio DACs, 202 had all but the kitchen sink. Great preamplifier, amazingly transparent and detailed DAC, a headphone amplifier which was so good that I sold my not inexpensive Violectric straight away. Daniel continues to support his products with regular firmwares for years, sometimes adding significant functionality (the processing power is available under the hood). It absolutely wiped the floor with my second generation Benchmark, which sounded raw and unrefined by comparison. But it was still a Minerva and, while indeed an amazing monitoring tool with say an HD800, musical enjoyment was not its primary focus. And I would expect 501 to be much the same. If I would need a fairly compact DAC for say a computer rig with an excellent USB interface, a great headphone amp etc - Weiss would be high on my list of candidates. For my main system I would look elsewhere, unless you have a valve preamplifier, a class A amp, laid back speakers (Sonos Faber, Harbeth etc). In that scenario I think a Weiss would work very well indeed. |
I have mixed feelings about Asian products. Buying from China is NOT a blessing. It can take weeks to see your purchase, you risk a handsome customs bill, your box can be lost or damaged on arrival. Which leads to the next issue: customer support. Some companies are better than others but never expect the kind of support you get from a, say, dCS dealer. Bad English (if not Google translate), generic troubleshooting, blame the problem on your system or network or user input or or. Eventually, if a RMA is agreed, you have to pack, send back to China at your own expense, risk more clashes with customs (I had to send a linear power supply back twice. Each time it was returned I was hit with a customs invoice). The software support varies from poor to abysmal. Never buy promises. Assume that your product will never see any meaningful updates. Buy what you see, not the hype, your hopes or expectations. Mr Weiss on the other hand will answer your emails personally within a day or two. The Chinese hardware might be good. The price might be keen. And you might be lucky not to need support. But if you do it could be slow and painful. |
@melm Hi yes I agree -- there are always trade-offs. I think the modular nature of some DACs is a very attractive feature, but no it’s not a universally appealing solution. Companies like Bricasti and Ayre have shown over the years their commitment to original owners via upgrades, and I appreciate that. One of my early digital purchases was a Naim UnitiQute, not long before the Naim Atom came out. The Atom was a major advance (I "had" to have it), but it was an expensive (to me) proposition to get the Atom, having just purchased the Qute -- whose value of course tanked when the Atom came out. In retrospect, I wish I had chosen a modular product. Or at least a dealer with a good trade-in policy. That experience colored how I feel about boxes, particularly digital boxes, that are not truly upgradeable. So that was my introduction to hifi, and it’s stayed with me. I did choose the most expensive Holo to highlight the idea, but I think it holds at other price points as well. Take the Musetec at $3100 (the factory price keeps going up), add a decent streamer like the Lumin at $2000+, and you’re not far off the Bricasti M3 + network card at $6500, and you’re above the Sonnet Morpheus/Hermes at $4500 or whatever. I won’t get into the substance of how they sound different, just pointing out that from a price perspective, there is quite a bit of overlap between excellent Chinese DACs and excellent N.A./Euro DACs. @reven6e makes great points on the Weiss. I haven’t heard the older Weiss DAC, but that’s consistent with what others have told me. I found the current Weiss "musical" (i.e. a pleasure -- when listening, I wanted to keep listening) but yes it’s a cool, analytical kind of pleasure (imagine the pleasure of understanding a cool new scientific experiment, vs. the pleasure of losing yourself in a movie), so system-matching becomes extra important. |
P.S. This may be too obvious to mention on a website whose main purpose is the buying and selling of used audio gear, but if we're talking about relative value, the secondhand markets for the top Chinese DACs and N.A./Euro DACs are VERY different... For Denafrips/Holo, on the used market, there's minimal haircut. A buyer is paying close to full sticker price. The main advantage buying used there is logistical -- you don't need to wait a month to receive your DAC, and you don't need to spend another month breaking it in. For N.A./Euro DACs, the used market provides substantial savings. There was a mint Weiss DAC that sold used for less than $6k. Yes, you do need to be patient for listings to come up, but that makes the value considerations here even more interesting. And of course with products distributed through a dealer network, there will also be demo product available at significant savings if you know where to look.
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@metaldetektor A negative sometimes is selling a used unit. With some exceptions, you won’t realize anything like the percentage recovery as on most Western DACs. But then, an expert/designer has written that a $3300 Chinese DAC has outperformed a $13,000 Mola Mola. So what’s the better deal? Of course, when you buy from a domestic "dealer" you pay a (100%?) mark-up. But it’s peace of mind. I must add one more thing. The Chinese very often tell you and show you exactly what’s inside the DAC before you buy. With many, if not most, western DACs what’s inside is a mystery. Musetec is a great example--if you’ve never done it, have a look at their description. They do it because the DAC is packed with many of the very best, and expensive, components to be found world-wide. Or look at Gustard. For anyone who can make out what the component parts can mean to long-time enjoyment this is important information. [Who was it that said, "An intelligent consumer is our best customer."?] On the other hand what the inside looks like on some Western DACs may be an embarrassment. PS Audio, for example used to sell a $4000 DAC with a beautiful case that was 80% empty inside. I wish I could show you a picture here. It was hard to find. Interestingly they’ll tell you exactly what’s inside an amp or preamp, but not a DAC. |
Cost/benefit valuations certainly subjective. I don't need to repeat all the various objections to Chinese products, but it should be mentioned that nearly every single electronic product has Chinese origins in some measure. I'm not going to advocate any perspective is superior to another in this matter. I will say one could likely find a thousand possible reasons to hold biases against products from any number of countries,and from particular dealers, distributors, manufacturers, I certainly observe these biases in play on various forums.
Utility has always been important to me in any and all purchases of all kinds of products. Different business models are perceived as more or less utilitarian by consumers. Some find utility in having local dealer carrying product, in which case distributor/dealer business model perceived superior. Others may prefer all or nearly all utility to be found in the product itself, are willing to face possible warranty, shipping, etc. issues.
The question is can equipment at various price points compete in same league? I don't see enough direct comparative reviews to answer this with assurance. Rarely do I see professional reviews doing this, and consumer reviews bring much bias, and often excessive variables. The professional reviewer looses credibility with relatively lower cost equipment as their reference, and the consumer usually has bias for equipment they've purchased, no matter the price. Perceptions the high priced spread has to sound great based solely on price, the relatively lower priced a giant killer.
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op to answer your original question, yes i am, and i am enjoying my 501 immensely - what a brilliant unit it is - i would not say it is lean in how it presents the music, i would say it is right down the middle, in the best way feel free to pm me for further discussion the idiots have come out of hiding and threadjacked your thread, unfortunately, i don't care to add further commentary here |
I’m sorry this thread did not go in the direction you would have preferred. The reason may be that there are very few Weiss 501’s out there. I did a search on the Asylum, which is very easy to do there and where more folks, it seems, list their components. Among the 10s of thousands (0r more?) there, no one lists the Weiss 501. There were about 15 Weiss DACs listed and all were well over 10 years old and discontinued models. Here there are now 2 responses and one is from a dealer. Nothing prevents further responses. Anyone doing serious research in the future will find it easy to bypass us idiots and find what they’re looking for. Yes, a "typical" Audiogon thread, and still you keep coming back and contributing, again.
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