This debate gets tiring after a while.
@genez
Try hearing a sonic benefit in a blind test. That'll end the debate.
We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses
LOL, I'll bet I gotcha on that Title! ;) BTW, I put this thread under "Tech Talk" category as it involves the system physically, not tangentially.
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along...
Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along...
Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
661 responses Add your response
A sepatate fuse forum is a great idea, ecsecially for those of us who believe that electricity is directional. (AC goes back and forth atv60 cps; dc, at thecfrequencies of the signal.). Maybe we could combine it with the forum on the benefits of filling our little speaker wire supports with dampning fluid with unicorn poop. TeeHee. In all seriousness, has anyone ever tested these designer fuses to see if what they really offer is simply the ability to pass more current, i.e. as not protecting your electronics with properly rated fuses? |
What do you tell somebody who's system does not allow for them to hear a difference? That in your system you definitively do? Unless you invite them over to witness to this phenomena to hear it in your system? They will keep saying fuses do nothing because something in their system is veiling the benefits. But, of course, if the spent big bucks? It would have to mean everything is set up optimally by default of the expense. This debate gets tiring after a while. If someone can not hear the benefits on their system? That means it can not be heard on mine. That I have no right to hear what I do.... Like I said. It gets tiring after a while. |
@chefhat, "thought your tweeter story was fascinating, but I would doubt whether
the expensive fuse would sound better than the regular fuse - however I
can see why no fuse would sound the best!" Looks like we agree no fuse would sound the best. Inherent in that position, I believe comes the understanding of how much sonic damage a fuse imparts. To that end, it seems easy enough to use the same patterns of better materials and / or metallurgies producing better sound as resistors, capacitors, switches, etc. Regarding the measurements often brought up, as someone who worked as a materials science engineer / R&D chemist at a company providing the raw materials to the likes of Vishay, Dale, Mills, IRC, Raytheon, GE, Chrysler, GM / Ford, Bosch, TRW, Panasonic, Kyocera, Samsung, and on and on I believe the requirements for achieving an ohmic contact necessary for measuring the resistivity of these sort of low-range materials lies outside the capability of any high-end audio company I can think of. They simply lack the resources to do so: money, equipment, personnel, methodology, experience, understanding, and an overall benchmarking / measuring stick itself. Beyond the vast array of all of the equipment we had bought or developed to provide the hard numbers, using my eyes with optical and electron microscopes became an invaluable part in helping me develop the sort of conductor, resistor, semiconductor, dielectric, glass, solder, and polymer materials we did. To that end, although I do not own these sorts of fuses, knowing the chasm that lies between the differences in the properties of the materials themselves and the ability of the sort of test equipment this industry employs to perceive and evaluate them along with my own experience as an audiophile, when folks claim to hear sonic differences, I believe them |
Should there be a separate forum about fuses? Yes, keep them separated so they can't harm the general public...;) But seriously, fuses in the power supply are one thing. It makes me laugh when people tout changes to air, depth, soundstage, etc, when they change the AC fuse to some expensive nonsense. Fuses in line with speakers are another. I can see them making a difference in the sound. |
It is amazing how much fuses degrade sound. Goodness this is a statement of fact based on my experience. No fuse sounds best. I bypass them in my gear. High quality circuit breakers as an on/off are a far better option sonically. It stands to reason a better quality fuse can only help this one area of clear sonic bottlenecking. |
shadorne"Common sense says that if fuses make a big difference to electronic circuits then why isnt there a market for $50 or $100 fuses for toasters and all other electrical devices" Let's use science to settle this why don't you perform a double blinded test let's settle this for once and for all invite members here to particpate and help you design the test toasters have nothing to do with this silly. |
Common sense says that if fuses make a big difference to electronic circuits then why isnt there a market for $50 or $100 fuses for toasters and all other electrical devices? Show me the display at Home Depot or Best Buy or an automotive shop with recommended fuse upgrades for less burnt toast, smoother coffee, faster routers, less computer crashes, longer lasting hard drives, higher MPG efficiency, more torque and HP, lower heating bills and cleaner dishes? And don’t tell me audio electronics is different or special because that is a strawman. Only an audiofool would believe that audio equipment is a special exception and that only |
@douglas_schroeder We might also see a wide variance in total system cost as regards fuses. I would not be surprised to see systems in the $15K+ category using aftermarket fuses, while those in the $2-10K category would not.FYI, system is about $60K retail, mostly using mostly Cooper Bussmann fuses except for the designer fuses I have tried and that haven't failed yet - when they do those get replaced with Cooper Bussmann ceramic. DIY cables, after trying many others. |
I appreciate all the responses, and the effort to maintain courtesy despite strong opposition in terms of conclusions. Again, derision accomplishes little and unnecessarily alienates fellow audiophiles. At the moment, as clearly as I can tell the tally is: 6 answers aligning more with "Gift" and 8 aligning more with "Snake Oil". It's an interesting phenomenon that some have found only a particular fuse to win them over. If I'm not mistaken the bulk, if not all, fuses available to audiophiles are AC power fuses (But, I haven't researched all available aftermarket fuses for HiFi.) If someone has information otherwise, please correct me on this. :) Another interesting phenomenon is that I haven't seen an instance yet of someone saying that adding too many fuses to the system was detrimental. It seems in most cases that those who agree with the efficacy of fuses are in the "more the better" camp. Though I am not pushing the conversation in this direction, I would find it interesting to see what the breakdown is in terms of attitude toward fuses and attitude toward cables. I suspect that most who have tried fuses have found aftermarket cables efficacious, and most who feel fuses are snake oil have stayed with lower cost cables and or stock cables. It would seem to me that the two activities would hang together. We might also see a wide variance in total system cost as regards fuses. I would not be surprised to see systems in the $15K+ category using aftermarket fuses, while those in the $2-10K category would not. Imo, that has no bearing on the efficacy of fuses, but says more about the attitudes about it. Thank you to all who have participated; I hope we see many more tallying up their experiences and opinions. :) |
Ah, the old “it’s common sense” argument. It’s like seeing an old friend. Unfortunately it doesn’t win debates. A tear. 😥 By the way, shadorne, what I’m actually claiming, not what you say I’m claiming, since you can’t seem to keep it straight, is that all fuses are directional, no matter where they are located. And no matter what brand of fuse is examined, including stock off the shelf fuses. All fuses are directional in both DC and AC circuits. Can I direct you the HiFi Tuning data sheets for the umpty umpth time? |
Shadorne - your comment above is why I chose to leave AC power fuses to one side. The problem here is that fuses are being discussed in three different contexts - I think you hinted at that above: 1. DC Power Fuses 2. AC Power Fuses 3. AC Signal fuses All audio signals are AC incitentally. Power fuses should behave the same regardless of whether the source is AC or DC, because AC power is a consistant wave i.e. 50 or 60HZ at 120 or 220v. If swapping fuses here makes a difference here, you have a problem. AC signals vary greatly in voltage and available current, depending on what they are driving i.e. the impedence they are presented with. This is where fuses in the signal path will create all sorts of different results as the signal current approaches and recedes from the blow-point. I’d also urge folks here to be very careful changing power fuses. They are there for a reason and the recommended fuse rating should always be used regardless of cost or what the manufacturer claims makes the fuse special. |
shadorne"I claim aim that a well designed component will be unaffected audibly by a change of fuse from one suitable fuse to another suitable fuse. This is common sense." Invoking such a warm and fuzzy notion as "common sense" is not persuasive in a matter of scientific discussion so I propose that you conduct a scientific double blinded test to confirm your theory. Don't forget to tell us all about the test and to solicit participants here and we'll see how this pans out good luck to you! |
Geoff No strawman. You claim a fuse affects the audio signal sound. I agree with you. It certainly will affect the audio sound if the component is very badly designed. I claim aim that a well designed component will be unaffected audibly by a change of fuse from one suitable fuse to another suitable fuse. This is common sense. That a fuse is in the AC power path is a meaningless strawman argument - we are not supposed to be listening to AC power but the audio on the CD etc. - audio that comes from DC power circuitry that runs after the AC power has been condition for said circuits. The path includes your fuse box in your home and the transformer in the street as well as countless KM of electrical wire from the power substation. For that matter the coal burned or natural gas burned or water flowing at the hydroelectric station or being boiled to power steam turbines at your power station is ALL in the path or chain of how AC power is reaching your home. Should you be worried about it? Well probably as much as you should worry about being abducted by aliens ;-) |
Yes Geoff. If the fuse is audibly affecting the sound then you have a terribly designed power supply on your 100K or million $ amplifier. You make everything sound like rocket science when a power supply is such a simple part of the audio chain. The simple truth is that fuses are NOT supposed to be affecting the audio signal and they do not have an influence in properly designed gear. |
No need for a fuse forum. What is badly needed is a waste recycling cooperative for all the crappy unreliable finicky electronics that sound different with every fuse replacement. Either that or a technician needs to recognize the opportunity to provide services to fix all those terribly designed power supplies that ensure you only hear the fuse rather than the source recording. Just the other day someone claimed to have spent $7000+ on fuses in order to try to fix the sound of their system. I am certain that for this kind of money a completely new and well designed power supply could be installed in the users problematic equipment. |
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I've tried three different brands and they all had their own sonic signature and each brand sounded better in one direction over the other. Just curious if you were able to detect a sonic difference between brands an/or changing their direction via a blind or double blind test. "That would be something" |
trelja - the fuses in a speaker are going to be operating with a valiable voltage depending on the volume, so they will, as I suggested in my post above, be skirting very close to their blow point at times and will therefore be prone to dissipating some heat, so I would expect some voltage drop and a notable difference in the sound - the increased heat and resistance will throttle the current available to the speaker and this is likely what you can hear. However, the fuse in a power supply or on the supply rail of an amplifier is not exposed to such variation - it’s handling a DC supply, rather than an AC signal. Let's leave fuses in your AC 120v / 220v supply aside for now. There is a big difference between the behavior of supply current and signal current and fuses will behave differently with each. I thought your tweeter story was fascinating, but I would doubt whether the expensive fuse would sound better than the regular fuse - however I can see why no fuse would sound the best! |
Last weekend, a guy who had a pair of Frieds came to my house for help getting them to work. One of his loudspeakers had the fuse holder break, and he found himself stuck. Most loudspeakers Bud produced came with "tweeter protection", consisting of either a fuse or light bulb, as in his own words, he hated doing warranty work at his cost. I’ve learned over the years the conventional wisdom of protecting tweeters via a fuse doesn’t work the way folks think. They still fry over time. Except in moments of huge power coming into the loudspeaker, the fuse proves worthless. Anyway, I simply bypassed the fuse, and made the connection on the crossover to allow his speaker to come back to life. We tested them out by playing them, and even at his advanced age, he instantly noticed this speaker sounding very different (better!) than the other. I soon bypassed the fuse on the other speaker to balance them out. He couldn’t believe how much the fuse degraded the sound |
Seriously though, if there was a resistance in your fuse, there would be a voltage drop accross it, which would adversly affect your equipment and comprimise it’s design. Fuses are designed to only dissipate heat (and therefore present a resistance) very close to the point of failure. If your fuse is presenting a resistance it must be dissipating heat to some extent, which will lower the voltage accross it, which will be measurable with a meter (however good). If this was the case, then I would suggest using a slightly higher rate fuse e.g. swapping a 2.5amp for a 3amp Either way, any fuse operating that close to it’s limit would blow with the least provocation; i.e. powering up the amplifier would blow it. |
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The wire in a fuse is orders of magnitude thinner than a speaker cable with proportionally greater resistance. Go figure! In this hobby it’s often the case what you believe has very little to do with it. I have used hi end fuses in the past but now currently as I’m listening off the grid, which completely avoids any issue fuses may or may not have such as distortion and noise, not to mention noise and distortion from the house AC. “If thy eye offend thee cut it out.” - old audiophile axiom |
We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses You fusers need a separate site. And here it is. http://www.snakeoilaudio.com/login Cheers George |
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I use 5 Blue fuses from SR. Never had bought high end fuses prior. I have 2 in the Modwright 5400, 1 in the Whest 3.0 RDT SE, and 1 each in the Nuforce Ref 9 V3SE monos. They do sound better in one direction when tried, and they do make a very nice difference in the sound. Can't legitimately say if they are better than other high end fuses, however. They are expensive. The Star Sound trans mod is even more effective and much less expensive. I've done that to 3 different components. |
Yes, designer fuses are a very effective addition to audiophiles' systems. Yes, I have used three brands and seven levels between them. Designer fuses, particularly the SR brand, have been shown to be effective via hundreds of reports throughout a number of threads here. We've all grown weary of this topic. |
