We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses
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There's no difference at all. Explain how there's a difference.Really? You want all of us to go that deep into the weeds to see who can construct the better argument over a faith based perception vs. an empirical one, and have that be the underlying explanation or refutation of aftermarket fuses? Don't you have better things to do like build that dual mono amp so you needn't try a different fuse? All the best, Nonoise |
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+1 nonoise, I was just going to say that it seems that people are arguing just for arguing sake. The other comment I have here is that I notice that geoffkait really just pours gasoline on to fire. I know he has said in the past that he is just trying to diffuse arguments with comedy, but I think this is really only an excuse to post very insulting comments. I know that there is a tendancy to love his posts because he is on your side, but it is very much creating a mob mentality. Keep that in mind as you read. |
@auxinput, Way ahead of you on that one. While I like Geoff’s take on lots of things, his humor, and point of view, he does like to provoke, prod and needle, even when people agree with him or don’t exactly line up with him while still being on the same side. There’s been may times when I felt like asking: why the hell did you just say that? But he is what he is as I am what I am (with all due apologies to Popeye). 🤔 All the best, Nonoise |
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Yes....fuses should have a separate forum but that forum should be on it's own server that is capable of handling numerous emails and responses. Let me agree with the few that have said that "no fuse is the best fuse". But, a fuse is protection. A fuse is like a cable. It can't add, only take away. I've been in this "hobby" for over 40 years. Like a "gear head" with cars, audio enthusiasts strive to improve their product no matter how mediocre or outstanding it is. No harm in trying simple tweaks and sometimes they work out well. Fuses are subject to alternating current as are power cords and the like. Sorry...I'd need scientific proof. Case in point.....we've all heard about "burn in". Sure, some components benefit from some sort of continual use. But what it really is for the listener to burn into their brain that "hey...this sounds better". OK....flood me with your digs. A friend has over $500K invested in his system. Sure it sounds great. But, he admits that the most improvement he made is with sound treatments he made in his listening room. So, buy those fuses and if you think they make better sound... GREAT. I'd put my money elsewhere. |
No digs needed @jrpnde. Glad to have you aboard. It wasn't until just half way through your post that I thought you were leaning towards accepting aftermarket fuses, but there's still time. 😄 Sure, it can have burn in, like a cable and other components that benefit from it and yes, it's purpose is for protection, but like you said, if it sounds better without it, why couldn't a fuse that's made to a higher standard than the cheaply made one sound better? It would most certainly conduct better and vibrate less, which would impart an improvement. All the best, Nonoise |
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Kosst, I will explain that your description of aftermarket fuses is misapplied, as your other descriptions of the effects of aftermarket fuses wherein you discount them. You conclude that they can do nothing exceptional, so obviously you think aftermarket fuses are superfluous. Well, you're wrong. Aftermarket fuses are not sucker bait, but a purposeful change to effectively alter the sound. A fine HiFi component should readily reveal any such changes. Any component which would mask such things is junk. If you made an amp that was insensitive to aftermarket fuses I would consider it a horrid design. |
To further support douglas schoeder's point, I have experienced scenarios where the quality of components directly affects the ability to "hear" the real signal. This was very apparent when I was comparing two different DACs. Using somewhat lower quality interconnect cables, we could not really hear any differences between the two DACs. However, when we upgraded to highly superior cables (i.e. solid-core OCC silver), it was made very apparent that there were significant differences in sound quality between the two DACs. |
One of the goals of a good designer will be to minimize the sensitivity of the performance of his or her design to extraneous factors, such as the vagaries of incoming power, expectable differences in the characteristics of other system components that may be used in conjunction with the design, and, yes, fuses. However, based on a very substantial body of empirical and anecdotal evidence it seems clear that as a practical matter that goal generally falls well short of being fully realized. On the other hand, though, IMO it is also true that the correlation between sensitivity to extraneous hardware-related factors and the sonic quality and musical resolution of a design also falls well short of being perfect. To cite just one obvious example to illustrate that point, among countless other examples that could be cited: Everything else being equal, a speaker having low impedance, and/or an impedance which varies widely over the frequency range, will be more resolving of differences between amplifiers and speaker cables than a speaker having high impedance and/or an impedance which doesn’t vary greatly over the frequency range. Would one conclude from that fact that the high impedance speaker is necessarily inferior in terms of sonic quality and resolution of musical detail? Or going even further that the high impedance speaker is "junk" and "horrid design"? So just as maximizing the sonic quality and musical resolution of a design may have a tendency to work in the direction of increasing sensitivity to extraneous hardware-related factors, intelligent circuit design may have a tendency to work in the opposite direction. And generally speaking, IMO, the net result of those competing tendencies will be a correlation between sonic quality and resolution of musical detail on the one hand, and resolution of hardware differences on the other hand, that while being significantly greater than zero is also significantly less than perfect. So I would have to respectfully but emphatically disagree with Doug’s blanket characterization of insensitivity to fuse differences as signifying "junk" and "horrid design." And I believe that most experienced electronics designers would agree with me. Regards, -- Al |
Tubes contain enough components in their makeup to display tonal differences in a somewhat obvious, and generally explainable way…fuses, even with all of the back and forth conversation including accolades for the "magic" high end versions, claims of sonic differences between these things, and hyperbolic exaggeration from "fusers" claiming amazement at the resulting sonic nirvana provided by fuse replacement, have left one item off the plate in this entire dialog: Why do expensive "audiophile" replacement fuses, when used with any component anywhere, do anything other than act as a fuse? What makes them "more fusey?" Do they provide more fusage? Is it likely they're tiny fund generators for businesses recognizing that subjective opinion is trashed when expectation bias creeps into the brain from the bank account? People claiming to hear things is not new, and people who claim to not hear things in the face of ridicule from others is also not new. But people designing things without any attempt at noting how and why they may work is somewhat unethical, and simply appeals to the desperate tweaker who seems to need something to imagine. |
left one item off the plate in this entire dialog: Why do expensive "audiophile" replacement fuses, when used with any component anywhere, do anything other than act as a fuse?Oh, but it has been pointed out. Repeatedly. You just prefer to ignore it when posted and ask in a different way. Repeatedly. But what you ask made for a nice seque to your rant. 👍 All the best, Nonoise |
wolf_garcia Tubes contain enough components in their makeup to display tonal differences in a somewhat obvious, and generally explainable way…fuses, even with all of the back and forth conversation including accolades for the "magic" high end versions, claims of sonic differences between these things, and hyperbolic exaggeration from "fusers" claiming amazement at the resulting sonic nirvana provided by fuse replacement, have left one item off the plate in this entire dialog: Why do expensive "audiophile" replacement fuses, when used with any component anywhere, do anything other than act as a fuse? >>>>I’m afraid I have to disagree with you on your theory, Wolfman. My experience is different. Totally different. I find tubes to be rather mysterious inasmuch as no one seems to have been able to figure out why the NOS wartime tubes sound so great. Some of the mystery is very low noise. In some cases you can reverse engineer them but by and large they are a complete mystery. They can’t be copied. If they could figure it out they could reproduce them, but they can’t. The other thing is that when you settle in on your favorite tubes, whatever they might be, probably NOS wartime tubes, using Herbies tube dampers improves their performance considerably. Of course the fuse thing is SO obvious. It’s your word against 70,000. Hel-loo! |
@geoffkait It was Brent Jessee (of audiotues.com) who told me the IAEA banned the use of certain metals used in NOS tubes for fear of who could get their hands on them for nefarious purposes (like building illicit nukes). After that, they never sounded the same, no matter how exacting they made them. All the best, Nonoise |
Al, cogent thoughts, as usual, and with cordiality. I wish all discussion on Agon was like this. My statement was intentionally hyperbolic. However, I do not believe - at least I have never encountered in 12 years of reviewing dozens of components of a wide variey, and building literally hundreds of systems - there exists any HiFi component which is absolutely insensitive to cabling. I suspect the same is true of fuses. I have no reason to doubt it, and hopefully with time I will have a tremendous amount of experience to either correct or affirm my guess. My point is that if sensitivity to external hardware was so low, the component would be awful. My evidence is the dozens of components which vary in sensitivity to external gear, as you have explained, yet every single one is easily influenced by cabling. I really need to get some more fuses and push this through. I'm smart enough to know that if one or two more fuses produce a mediocre to nil effect, I'm wrong and they are a complete crap shoot. I'm also smart enough to know that if four or five unique, random systems with aftermarket fuses produce efficacious results, then the odds diminish rapidly that aftermarket fuse benefit is system dependent. |
nonoise @geoffkait It was Brent Jessee (of audiotues.com) who told me the IAEA banned the use of certain metals used in NOS tubes for fear of who could get their hands on them for nefarious purposes (like building illicit nukes). After that, they never sounded the same, no matter how exacting they made them. >>>>Of course by banning them they alerted the bad guys to the specific metals they needed to obtain. Or is it Top Secret? And if so how did Brent Jessee find out? Furthermore, there’s much more to constructing a nuke than obtaining some obscure metals. And if the Government was smart they’d announce they banned metals that actually weren’t needed to make a nuke. Hel-loo! In addition, the construction of how to make a nuke is pretty well explained in a number of public sources like, you know, the book by Richard Rhodes, The Making of the Atomic Bomb. Hel-loo! |
@geoffkait It was more of a short generalization when he told me after I asked him why NOS were better. I would assume that way back then, simply banning certain metals was the way to go. There were no announcements, just the restrictions that went over the public's head, unless you were in the business of using said metals. Brent, being in the business, most likely came across the info like anyone else with the resources and desire to know since it affected him. As for the public sources, there was the occasional book in the library that had that info on making your own bomb but it was nothing like today, with the internet. You had to seriously source the material. All the best, Nonoise |
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Looks like Almarg sums up the point eloquentlyBut it was, in the end, an assumption. Most engineers would consider a fuse to be nothing more than a protection device, since that's it's intended purpose. It turns out though, that it has ramifications beyond it's intended purpose, and there are those who've bothered to see for themselves if there's any benefit to changing the fuse for a better one, as opposed to those who simply refuse to try. All we're doing here is going in circles. All the best, Nonoise |
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kosst, Can I be so bold as to offer some advice? Don't do that. Also, if you're in Chicago, or near enough, thecableco.com is located there. Fuses, power cords, speaker cables, etc. are all there for you to try. All the best, Nonoise |
When it comes to power supplies, I’ve not spoken with a designer who actually ever put a significant thought into the fuse beyond its inclusion because of the obvious necessities. I have talked with some who mentioned the superiority of circuit breakers. My position on that remains, given the ridiculous pricing of so many of these products, the inclusion of a fuse instead of a circuit breaker seems wrong. Further, when it comes to tube amplifiers, you don’t really see much divergence in design. Like the rest of the amplifier, most of the implementation consists of simply lifting from the products that have come along since the 1930s, whether guitar or hifi. Bring up the schematic of any 1950s Fender guitar amplifier, and the power supply and the rest of it will look far closer to the typical current names in this hobby than you might think. Apart from the decision on tube versus solid state rectification, and perhaps the inclusion of a choke, the differences lie in size and cost of the capacitance, other than the work (I encourage folks to read the GreenForce patent) of my friend Bob Backert, you don’t see much change in power supply thought from the old days. I’ve never actually replaced any of my fuses with anything other than the LittleFuse, Bussman, Radio Shack, etc. I’m happy enough where I sit, and don’t feel any burning desire for these fuses, or the need for overall system improvement to drive me down such paths. But at the end of the day, as a material scientist engineer / chemist producing electronic materials, I feel interested from a distance. My thought process follows whether the ** potential ** for these after-market fuses could increase the performance of an audio component. Based on my experience, the answer is, YES. Improved materials COULD result in an improvement in either objective or subjective criteria. Everyone knows, sometimes we can measure differences, but they do not translate to anything sonically beneficial. Other times, we cannot measure differences, yet we can hear them. Cost, and beyond that, actual value constitute different criteria that me and my colleagues considered only after we established the effectiveness or lack thereof of the material considered. Efficacy and cost represented two different components in our initial research and analysis, though they obviously often become critical and interdependent components at some juncture. Now, as I’ve previously stated, I know of no high-end audio company that could perform the sort of testing to generate the hard numbers on why these fuses would grade out as superior. Or not. To that statement, how many folks claim they measured the resistance of each on their multimeters, and saw absolutely no difference? Sorry, but measuring this level of resistivity requires a lot more than your $13 or $13K meter, including things like the ability to create an ohmic contact. I’m confident specific groups within companies like Philips, Matsushita, Samsung, and Sony do possess the capabilities, and COULD perform such analysis. But so far, to my knowledge, none has shown any interest in doing so. @geoffkait routinely mentions NASA when it comes to fuses - my position is, if you have or know of tangible evidence on the sort of comparisons I’ve described, please point us to it. Until and unless I see that, we’re left only testing (actually, I do have a few ideas for testing we could try, such as A / B the voltage / current readings through the power supply) via listening, which I certainly don’t dismiss. But that’s clearly where so much of the disconnect between the two sides lies. In the end, I don’t begrudge anyone their tastes of happiness, tell folks how / where to spend their money, or what constitutes value for them. Many folks here have established enough trust on this site that if they claim to hear a meaningful enough difference to justify the cost of these fuses, I support their position, and certainly, their right to claim it. Again, maybe not enough to go try / buy a fuse, but enough to smile about the happiness they’ve found |
trelja “Now, as I’ve previously stated, I know of no high-end audio company that could perform the sort of testing to generate the hard numbers on why these fuses would grade out as superior. Or not. To that statement, how many folks claim they measured the resistance of each on their multimeters, and saw absolutely no difference? Sorry, but measuring this level of resistivity requires a lot more than your $13 or $13K meter, including things like the ability to create an ohmic contact. I’m confident specific groups within companies like Philips, Matsushita, Samsung, and Sony do possess the capabilities, and COULD perform such analysis. But so far, to my knowledge, none has shown any interest in doing so. @geoffkait routinely mentions NASA when it comes to fuses - my position is, if you have or know of tangible evidence on the sort of comparisons I’ve described, please point us to it. Until and unless I see that, we’re left only testing (actually, I do have a few ideas for testing we could try, such as A / B the voltage / current readings through the power supply) via listening, which I certainly don’t dismiss. But that’s clearly where so much of the disconnect between the two sides lies.” >>>>>NASA was looking into advanced fuses twenty years ago, at a minimum. And more recently NASA is working with Littelfise to potentially develop even more advanced fuses. I posted links to both of those events somewhere along the line in the last couple months. There should be some minimum of due diligence to investigate the current status and technology involved. Of course we also get an idea of what current high end fuse makers are doing since they don’t seem to be shy about sharing all the gory details. Of course there the HiFi Tuning measurements of various fuses and their directions. It’s also somewhat incorrect to characterize fuses as “expensive” since according to The Cable Company’s page on aftermarket fuses more than and many are circa $20. Of course if you want the best you’re probably going to have to cough up big bucks - and if you like the cut of the new Busman high end fuse’s jib that’s means $400. But in the light of almost twenty years of audiophile fuses and with the brisk sales of SR fuses especially it does seem a little odd to see all the vociferous comments. |
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Thank you for the kindness @uberwaltz and @nonoise I feel we do ourselves a disservice by not providing specifics to statements we make ala NASA and fuses, and only giving part of the picture. Such information provides the discussion little credibility benefit. Likewise, I disagree fuse manufacturers provide ample information, evidence, and background in regard to their products. In fact, they've done the complete opposite. But obviously, from their sales, my (and anyone in the anti camp) assertions prove irrelevant. At any rate, for reasons I previously explained, that doesn't take away from me believing the potential for improvement their products provide exists. I'm not here to debate how much, if any, improvement they provide or whether that improvement represents value, as only the customer has the ability and right to determine that. Anyway, to practice what I preach, if anyone's interested, here's a link to Bob Backert's GreenForce power supply patent https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/15/91/21/3464dfe8a23d12/US20130279221A1.pdf After many, many years as tech at a high-end audio salon that went belly up, folks enthusiastically experienced Bob's work via his mods to their equipment. Enthusiastically enough so that Bob began producing his own, now highly regarded, preamplifiers featuring his unique power supply. I should also mention my friends Vytas and Marc from Veloce, who also took a different path in terms of power supplies, though no patent exists regarding their work, achieved results beyond the norm. Like many great things, they sort of stumbled into what they got unintentionally, and though the results were impressive (impossible and funny sort of story around it, but Harry Pearson of TAS declared the phono stage of their preamplifier the best he'd ever encountered), the understanding didn't arrive until much later. When I happened to guess what happened, they felt surprised, but a sort of light went on for me to make it seem so obvious and simple. Coincidentally, Bob, Vytas / Marc, and myself (and Robert Stein aka The Cable Company) all live in the Philadelphia area, are friends, began thinking about power supplies several years ago, arriving to the same sort of questions and concerns (though we never discussed it with one another until long after), and began working through them, though with very different solutions |
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