My take on vinyl is that: You must be DRIVEN. It’s not only about different sound. It’s an hobby, like those cool people who purchased vintage cars and keep them up. You may invest a lot of money to spin an old record that Princeton Records wouldn’t pay $1 for it, with noises and distortions and all, but it’s endless, addictive fun. If you are not that driven - just an curious cat, Technics made very reliable tables that sound good with very little maintenance. Perfect starter. |
@mrpostfire , Many good suggestions here. I believe all the Nottinghams require manually moving the belt, so probably not for you. Vintage Luxmans, Thorens and the new Technics with built-in phono stage all sound like good options. A couple of sub-topics not addressed too much yet: 1) Record cleaning is the key to minimizing ticks & pops, even if you plan on playing mostly new LPs. For about $500 of your total budget you can get significantly cleaner, quieter LPs using a combo of ultrasonic cleaner, DIY fluids and rinse/dry with a wet vac. Read @rushton 's thread here where includes his PositiveFeedback article and other posts that expand on how to do it most cost-effectively. A commitment to cleaning records and immediately storing them in good new sleeves is required to get anywhere close to the sound you are investing in. 2) Phono stage needs to accounted for in your budget. It also must be carefully chosen to match gain and loading with the cartridge and preamp you'll be using. Don't just buy individually suggested items without informed opinions on if they play nice with each other. Aspects to note in your questions will be phono stage gain options, loading options, cartridge output and compliance. Don't feel like you need to become an expert overnight, just ask "Hey does this cart match well with this tonearm and this phono stage?". You'll get plenty of help. Cheers, Spencer |
Mrpostfire, I'm over 70, I had vinyl until CD's came out, and I have no idea what the "vinyl experience" is about; without a high end analog rig it was "crap" and good riddance. However, it's entering a new dimension in music with a top flight rig. What you don't want to do is waste money by buying something cheap. This is a long term investment; musical pleasure for the rest of your life. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/luxman-aims-reach-more-vinyl-enthusiasts-new-high-end-turntab... That looked like something you could live with, I believe I could. The best thing about new, is the possibility that you might be able to try before you buy; this TT business is very competitive. In regard to a cartridge, I recommend that you get one in the vicinity of 1K; like ice cream, they come in different flavors, but more or less the same quality in said price range. The best way to choose a cartridge without auditioning it, is to carefully read the reviews, and read as many as possible. Pay close attention to the music, the reviewer is using; if he uses music that is compatible with your tastes, and gives that music glowing reviews, you've got a match. It ain't easy being an audiophile, but the rewards are tremendous. |
I don't know if there is a consensus but it seems like more people believe $1000 isn't enough to capture the "analog magic." I can up my budget to $2500 new or used. The Nottingham's look intriguing as do the vintage Luxman PD 441. One thing I want to avoid is manually fiddling with the belt to change play speeds. I'll have to do some more research but I appreciate those providing specific suggestions. Thanks. |
Dear mrpostfire, Analog that tops digital is not inexpensive, and coming from a guy that started with analog, a grand in used gear won’t quite cut it. But it’s a start. Why? A bring home the bacon cartridge starts at around the $500-$1200 mark, with the sky being the law of deminishing returns limit. Ortofon 2M Bronze $440, Dynavector 10X5 Mk2 $750, Grado Sonata V2 $600, Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III Hi MC $550, and this is quality "entry level" gear. That doesn’t leave a lot left for table, wire and tonearm. So for a grand, in my experience, tough to do. But it’s a start. If buying new I’d suggest a Rega Planar 3 Turntable $950, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit Black with 2M Blue stylus $760, Thorens TD 203 Turntable w/ Arm & Ortofon 2M Blue $700, get you in for around a grand. If you’re going used? I’ve had an Oracle Delphi since 1982. Ya, ya, some will comment suspension tables this/that, but the fact of the matter is it’s a fine and rock solid table. They start at about a grand for just the table, no arm or cartridge. Add another $500 for a Rega RB300 arm, add a starter cartridge for another $500, and for $2000 G’s you’ve got a table you can build on from here to eternity. "Caveat" - - don’t mix a Rega arm with a Grado Sonata cartridge ! Another table I’ve had experience with is the VPI Scout, and there’s a Scout Jr on eBay right now for $700, which is something to take a good hard look at. Happy hunting. |
My 2-cents worth. My Rega RP3 -- bought about 12 years ago with a Rega Elys, upgraded 7 years ago to a Dynavector 10x5 -- gives me better sound than my CD Player (NAD C516BEE). I upgraded 2 years ago to a better phone stage (Pro-Ject Tube Box DS), and got significant improvement. It's a mood thing. When I am working or just need background music, I play CDs. When I'm really listening, I play LPs. And no, my analog rig was well within the $1K when I started. I added a few bucks every few years. So NO -- you don'r need big bucks to enjoy vinyl!! G |
Tonight, I discovered "ultimate analog"; that's what I call it, because it was too compelling to quit listening to, and I never found words to describe it. Never do I record CD's or LP's at 15 IPS because it's too expensive. Tonight, I found a box of tape on 10 inch plastic reels, it was tape that had been recorded over and erased, therefore can be purchased very cheaply. I had made recordings on this tape at 15 IPS and forgotten about it. While the music came through, the first reel was noisy, but the music came through over the noise. There were 10, 10 inch reels, so I still had a lot of tape to go. The second reel wasn't noisy, and from the audio, I deduced that I had recorded LP's because of the way the music drew me in, but there was no record noise or "tell tale clicks" that are a dead give away for LP's. The music was so compelling, that I quit all analytical listening and just went with the flow. First, let us define what music is, it's a part of you; you're inner being, that most personal of selves. It is the most important record of your life, because it celebrates the high times and the low times. When you experience instant recall of those times and places, that is invoked or excited by the music, to the extent that you can visualize the experiences, and even re-live the emotions; that is because the music has resonated your subconscious memory. This was the first time I had heard music that compelling. I listened to one reel after another; going back 50 years in time, seeing the people, events, and experiencing the emotions that made those times. I played one reel after another till almost day; that is when I began to analyze what had transpired. The terms we use to separate CD's and LP's by calling one digital, and the other analog, had been fused to create one compelling "super audio"; music with the emotion of analog, but minus the pops, clicks, and noise; that was music from CD's that had been recorded to magnetic tape at 15 IPS, and played back; you do the analyzing. |
In the last month I have ditched my 28 yr old Mirage M-5's that I thought I would have the rest of my life and I am 68 yrs old and my Marantz SR 8002 I thought had beautiful sounds with M-5's..But I have tinnitus really bad and thought these last years it was that more that, than equipment. Was I wrong.. Purchased used Definitive techogoly BP8080st bi polar to see and I was amazed at what I was hearing, that sound of separation of music again.. With just change of speakers and I am all time CD playing. I will next year get into streaming.. But just purchased my first vacuum amp from Raven and they sent a Nighthawk out until they build the Blackhawk Mk iii units.. Now I am hearing music instruments that I never knew were in a CD sound track...And Dave from Raven is sending upgraded tubes to see if I can hear any more musical sounds that I may be missing.. So I am excited every time I turn this equipment on.. I am using a Sony CD/Blu Ray with 192/24 spec audio .. I think at times to hear a vinyl play but I will not go that direction.. will purchase a better CD player and looking at a Marantz Network Audio Player. But right now I am enjoying sound I never knew were there and hopefully the Blackhawk when it arrives shares with me few more details than now... And next year would like to try Non Bi polar speakers and see what they sound like..the last time I had front firing speakers was 1980 Pioneer CS 99A wooden box speakers and that was a Loog time ago and since have had bi Polar.. any suggestions??? Was thinking Definitive Tech STL's. |
To the OP Not sure whether they were sold in the US but Yamaha’s YP-800 is a good bet for a modestly priced entry into Japanese DD tables. The included arm’s okay and I’d second the Goldring 1042. With a budget phono I was surprised how close that combo got to my EMM Labs cdp particularly with vocals. Be prepared to have the power supply re-capped, certainly in the UK well under $1000 would be possible. When the EMM died rather than repair it I picked up an SP10 with Jelco arm, added an AT33 ptgii and decent phono and haven’t looked back, way better sound than I ever achieved with a digital based system for a good deal lower outlay Why do people buy CD or Stream? It's easy, you can get decent sounds As for the vinyl, it took a good deal of time and effort setting up to take it from good to great |
Frogman, I've been listening to nothing but brand new LP's for days; old music, but new LP's; it really takes big strong fingers to pluck fat bass fiddle strings, and Mingus has them. I'm listening to; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0A_Ik6TTn0 It's so amazing how well this can be heard on a new LP. My contention in regard to vinyl has always been the same; I deplore the misleading assertions that the sound audiophiles are raving about can be had for next to nothing, and those old record players that were common in the 70's can deliver. They deliver now, what they delivered then, which is why everyone threw them on the trash, and bought a CD player. I realize how you have to wade through a "hodge podge" of statements in order to read mine, and how it's all so confusing, which is why you don't see the consistency in my statements, but I hate for people to waste money and be disappointed, which is something they're going to do if they believe there is something magically inherent in a vinyl record. |
@big_greg
I recently picked up a JVC QL-Y66F DD table with a Stanton 981 HZS cartridge for $545. Is it better than my digital sources (which isn't something the OP asked for by the way)? No. Do the used records I buy sound really nice on it after a good cleaning? Yes! Do I get more enjoyment out of it than my digital sources? Yes! Is it more pleasing on the eyes than my CD player or DAC? Yes! You've got an amazing MM cartridge if the stylus is the original Stereohedron or Stereohedron II, congrats! Normally this cartridge alone cost more than you paid for cart + turntable :) |
I do see Nottingham Interspace used from time to time for about $1500, rarely though. Not sure of the price for a new one, probably around $2.5k for table/arm. Usually, people keep their tables for a long time if they like them and only upgrade when they can go much higher, which in reality often means double the price. New Technics might do too. A lot also depends on your music and sound preferences. There are reasons why the very best turntables are belt drive. In ideal world I would have two, both belt drive and direct drive, but that would be a totally different level of performance and cost in the dozens of thousands. $2.5k - $5k range for new table/arm will let you get into analog seriously. $500-$1k for cartridge and $1k - $1.5k for phono. |
Again, you are missing the point. If you weren’t so predisposed to interpreting others’ comments the way that you want to see them it would be clear. I’ll try it one last time (with you). For starters, suggesting that the reason that someone does not see things from your point of view is that he beat you to the bong is an argument by any standard. But, that’s your style and I know it well. Unfortunate. Straight ahead. Now, if you had cared to really read my comments you would see that the only gear that I have “recommended” as worthwhile is “well chosen and well set up” budget gear; specifically the vintage Thorens that I linked. This, as a way to encourage those wanting to try vinyl for the first time while staying within their stated budget, or very close to it, to try it. IMO, it IS possible to get a taste of what many find so “involving” about analog while staying within their stated budgets. Funny, how quick some are to spend other people’s money. Also funny is how that budget figure gets smaller and smaller each time you quote it. Have you ever heard a well set up vintage Thorens? I doubt it. You would be shocked at how close it would come to your beloved Rega as far as playing MUSIC goes; and, for some, in some specific ways, it does it even better. Please reread my comments if you want more specific details as to why I feel the way I do. If that is not enough then read, if you haven’t already, big_greg’s comments as to why he enjoys listening to his lp’s more than his digital, finding the experience more “involving”. Those comments sum things up very nicely. What is “better” music playback? That which scores points in all the “audiophile” criteria, but doesn’t keep you glued to your listening chair digging the music? Or, that which does? For me it’s a no-brainer. |
@frogman "Better" is by definition a subjective term, however what I'm referring to are the things that seem to tick the check boxes for "audiophiles", dynamics, details, black backgrounds, soundstage, excetera excetera. I personally get more enjoyment out of spinning vinyl even if technically the sound quality isn't quite as good. I'm more likely to get up and walk around or be doing something else and have the music be in the background if I'm listening to a CD or streaming than if I'm listening to a record. Does that help with your understanding of the point I'm trying to get across? |
There are some very good points raised here and I am just going to throw this out there. I am currently selling a fully restored Dual 1019 ready to go at $299. No it is not a shameless plug ... Lol. Would I recommend this tt to a new to analog person? Heck no, even though restored and in perfect working order it is still not your definition of plug and play. I am usually fiddling slightly with antiskate and vtf depending on records. This type of older vintage idler drive is usually going to need a bit more fiddling than a simple belt drive. For example only couple days ago I noticed it sounded slow even with pitch adjusted fully up. Investigation revealed that the brass drive cone was not truly tight on the shaft and had slipped down on the shaft a little, hence running slow. Reset it, tightened it up and checked speed and set with strobe. Relatively simple task for me but for a newbie to idler drives or tt in general? May have driven them crazy. Plenty of sub $500 tt especially used would be a lot easier to live with and still give a nice experience. |
big_greg, thanks for your response. I’m trying to get a better sense of what you consider to be “better” sound; while admitting that you get more enjoyment from the (apparently) lesser. “Revealing” can mean different things to different listeners and isn’t always at the top of list of priorities for some listeners. Feel free to expound if you would like. Thanks again. orpheus10, I learned a long time ago that it is pointless to try and have a meaningful dialogue with you. Case of “Mars and Venus”; and that is being very generous. As usual, you are missing the point with your insistence on “winning” an argument that should never have become an argument. Please look for the argument elsewhere. Peace. |
I know what my problem is; "Nobody passed me the bong"; that's what it takes to get this romantic involvement with the "old-school" records and record players, that they now refer to as "Analog"; which said record players could be had for $200. new. Frogman, "Do I get more enjoyment out of it than my digital sources? Yes! *" BTW, Frogman has a TNT6 plus ET2 tonearm. https://www.vpiindustries.com/tnt6 https://www.stereophile.com/content/eminent-technology-two-tonearm Frogman says, "* ....more than anything else I get more involved in listening to records than digital sources ****" I wonder why? |
I recently picked up a JVC QL-Y66F DD table with a Stanton 981 HZS cartridge for $545. Is it better than my digital sources (which isn't something the OP asked for by the way)? No. Do the used records I buy sound really nice on it after a good cleaning? Yes! Do I get more enjoyment out of it than my digital sources? Yes! Is it more pleasing on the eyes than my CD player or DAC? Yes! I have a more resolving belt drive table with a better cartridge and better phono stage that I play my best records on. It doesn't best my Marantz KI-Pearl CD player, but it's close. For me there is some nostalgia involved, but I think more than anything else I get more involved in listening to records than digital sources. I don't think everybody buys a turntable because they are trying to get better sound quality than their digital sources. If the OP is looking for that with the budget mentioned then they may be disappointed, but if they're looking for a decent turntable in that price range they are out there to be had. Of course the definition of "decent" is subjective. |
Two things come to mind when reading this posts... One, nostalgia and profit drive much of the comeback of analog turntables and vinyl. Much like the comeback of the Volkswagen Beetle and the Chrysler PT cruiser, auto manufacturers capitalized on the “I want the good old days again” mindset of middle aged consumers. When kinds were playing mom and dads records and turning away from CD or IPods, those sales of albums brought it back... which leads to my second thought. Secondly, one MUST spend a very decent sum of money to begin to get good sound from turntable rigs. CD players are getting much better, streaming and digital downloads are offering hi-resolution files that sound very good and clean. Therefore a good turntable, cartridge, tonearm, phono preamp and record cleaner will cost you thousands of dollars to better digital sound. A vintage crappy turntable may come close but only if one really knows what to get and again you would spend a very good sum of money on a vintage Garrard 301, reconditioned or new. |
The cheapest tables with arm come in at 3K. @orpheus10 No, since Technics is back to business with Coreless Direct Drive (considered by many audiophiles as the best DD available today) and for very reasonable price, for example the 1200GR is under $2k and there are few more between $1200-1500 from Technics coming later this year. So the $3k mark is definitely not the cheapest. I think it would be hard to find anything close to the new 1200GR which can be purchaced for under $1700 used @inna |
What's with this "analog sound"; millions of people threw their "crappy" turntables on the junk heap and never looked back; a cheap crappy record player, and a record of any kind will give you crappy sound that every body gave up when they got a CD player. Personally, I'm not paying money for someone else's junk; there is way too much that can cause a TT not to be up to specs to chance a used one when you can get a new guaranteed one. This stuff is rated by class in "Stereophile", and if you want better than a good CD player, you got to go to class "B"; otherwise you get something no better than a good CD player, and I'm sure you already have that. The cheapest tables with arm come in at 3K. Cartridges come in at 1K, phono pre at less than 1K if MM with tubes preferably; total 5K. You can find ways to chisel 1K off the total, and still come out right. Or, you can go to Crutchfield, and get everything for $399. https://www.crutchfield.com/shopsearch/turntable.html |
To the OP. Don't listen to them or yourself regarding cheap DD tables. They are junk and will give you stupid even if at times sort of exciting sound. If you want real thing extend your budget and get Nottingham Analogue Interspace table/arm. Add Goldring 1042 MM cartridge and that will do it. For phono get Sutherland least expensive model. Another thing - buy only best pressings of records. Since you probably have no idea ask us, especially Bill. He's been roaming entire world for years searching for those, and finding them, usually. And clean the bloody records well on a machine. Again, don't waist your hard or even if not hard earned dollars on mass market and DJ BS. |
Larry, you are being totally inappropriate and I will explain. Most of these guys won't be able to tell whether it is record or cd playing, given similar level of equipment, unfamiliar music and analog mastering for cd. Even less probable with something like XRCDs. But I have faith in Bill and frog. Damn, I myself sometimes get confused for a few seconds with my own system and very familiar music when analog recording is quite compressed. |
Larry,it's quite apparent that you know next to nothing about "high end analog"; no audiophile would even consider the ridiculous stuff you are proposing; however, there is no question in regard to the superiority of analog over CD, even when one can't hear to well. My contention is the fact that the price point at which this superiority occurs is not made plain, and some one with only 1K should accumulate more funds before they take the leap, otherwise they will blow the 1K and not reap the benefits. |
I have been listening to records since I was born (over 70 years ago), and then CD's came along; good bye, and good riddance noisy records. Now records have been re-discovered. No, what has been discovered is records + high end audio. Records without high end audio is still a "no go" for me. None of the people I know, are about to pay the cost of high end analog to hear their records in the fashion being discussed, which means they only play CD's. Now, according to some, all you have to do is dust off those old record players, and you're in business. Anybody who was around the first time knows that's a lie; the average CD player will leave those old record players in the dust. Why you are trying to entice young people who don't know, into believing there is something special about an LP without expensive analog gear is beyond me. Oh, I know, I just can't hear what's special about the LP; I couldn't hear it then, and I can't hear it now; not without expensive high end gear. |
I always thought playing vinyl creates noise and less detail compared to playing a 16 bit and 24 bit CD? If I am wrong, I would like someone to explain otherwise. Also, can you really hear a sound difference when playing a $20,000 turn table? What if you purchased a $600 turn table and added an $1,800 cartridge. Wouldn't that still sound good. I would like to hear a demo comparing CD to vinyl and compare a cheap turn table with expensive cartridge to a $20,000 turn table using the same cartridge. |
A few years ago, serious and learned audiophiles had a debate as to what price point that analog exceeded digital, and we arrived at 3K. Since that was a few years ago, it must be at 4K now. Once money is spent, it can not be "un-spent". When someone who doesn't know about analog, but wants some serious sound, why recommend something that will not even get them there halfway? Freediver, is that the cost of your rig $250. ? |
Nice post, whart. **** But where you realize magic is pretty individual **** Exactly! That was precisely the point of my post. Most of us who have been in this hobby for a long time know all too well that what is considered “better” sound is often very individual. “Magical”? .... that takes the question to an entirely higher level of individuality. To say that a well chosen and very expensive vinyl playback system would sound better than a budget system is stating the obvious; but, I also chuckle at the attempts to assign a specific price point to when it is that the “magic” happens. For this individual there is a fundamental difference in the way that analog sounds compared to digital. It can be a very subtle difference which gets more and more subtle as the quality of the gear in question improves (more expensive...usually). Other times, depending on the recording, the difference is huge. However, my point was that this fundamental difference can be heard (to varying degrees) even with a modestly priced, well chosen and well set up truntable system. Whether that difference constitutes “magic” for any one listener is another matter entirely. Many listeners new to lp playback are immediately turned off by the presence of even the slightest bit of lp surface noise to the extent that this obfuscates for them what analog is doing right. Others are not and are turned on by the qualitative difference in the sound and their emotional reaction to it; and, for them, it rings true in a way that some digital playback does not. Is he the type of listener that has to sit in “the sweet spot” to enjoy the experience? Or, is he the type of listener that can fully enjoy the music while being in the adjoining room? Again, a personal matter. What is “better”? How much experience does the listener have with live music and what are the preferred genres? These are not judgmental questions as they are often made out to be, but they factor into how the difference is perceived. However, to deem it necessarily a waste of money to not initially invest thousands of dollars to get one’s feet wet in the analog experience? Hardly! Again, it should be obvious that my tricked out TNT6/ET2 setup would sound a lot better than a modestly priced vintage Thorens. But, tell you what, the reason that listing caught my eye was that a neighbor and fellow audiophool owns that same model Thorens and in the context of his modest well chosen system that turntable sounds, to me as well as him, consistently more “magical” than a couple of currently (recently?) popular mid level CD players (OPPO, EAD, ?) that have gone through his system. Your mention of the AR XA brought back some memories. My first decent turntable was back in college when I purchased a Technics SL-1700 (or, was it 1600?). I was perfectly happy with it and its ADC XLM going into vintage SAE electronics and EPI speakers (I’m showing my age). Perfectly happy until my college buddy brought over his AR XA with XLM. Well, magic would be a pretty good way of describing what I heard as the difference. Having said all that my next turntable will probably be a Technics SP10; or something along those lines. Personally, I think every person who fancies him/her-self an audiophile and music lover should experience, first hand, analog sound in their system and on their terms (time, place, etc). It may not strike that chord that it does for some; but, it may and at least they’ll know for sure. |
@haircellcandy-- geezers are welcome in audio. @mrpostfire-used is the way to go if you know what you are doing; you’ll buy more for the same money. Cartridge- maybe not used (though I’m starting to explore old cartridges). @frogman - nice spot on that little Thorens for the money. I also participated in the @freediver thread-and will offer the same observation to @mrpostfire-- ultimately, the biggest outlay, even if you got all spendy on turntable, arm, cartridge and phono stage, will be the records. (Reel to reel tape is a prime example of this-- the source material is what is going to cost you far more in the long run, even if you are running a top tier deck). It is a commitment. Not something that requires extraordinary knowledge (which can be acquired through time and effort, like anything else) but in freediver’s thread, he was on the fence about whether he wanted to make the commitment and didn’t want to get into the weeds, he wanted plug and play. A lot about playing records is the stuff in the weeds, from basic good quality table, decent arm, cartridges- you can spend like crazy and may not be in much better a place than at a fraction of the cost. Getting it dialed in is key and knowing how to do it yourself is important. Record buying is a lifetime pursuit. Record cleaning is a PITA, but will be important, especially as your collection grows and you explore older copies. Many of us started modestly- my first table back in 1969? was an AR XA which was a very basic manual turntable that retailed for around 90 or 100 US$. As my interest grew, I upgraded. I still have a few records from the early days of my involvement in this hobby; over the years I acquired many, many more. The learning, both about improving playback as well as music and various pressings--an ongoing adventure -- is great fun if your interest lies in that direction. I’m still learning and have been around this stuff quite a long time. I had suggested to freediver that he get a local dealer to loan him a used or demo table to try. I don’t know what your market is for dealers with access to trade-ins, demos and the like. It is almost impossible to evaluate turntables and their associated parts-arms and cartridges in a meaningful way in stores or at shows because there are so many variables at play- (this was the subject of another thread here recently)- but if you could try one at home that would be ideal. I actually do agree with @orpheus10 to the extent that you can keep improving everything on a vinyl front end, including phono stage, wires, tube rolling, etc. at some cost. But where you realize magic is pretty individual, as is your comfort level on price and adjusting things. (Turntables can be plug and play but you’ll get more out of a good set up by tiny adjustments and learning- something that could be fun or a nightmare, depending on your point of view) It took many years for me to get where I am-- I didn’t just go into a dealership and write out a check for the turntable I have now. Nor did all those wonderful records I have (and play, though I have more than I could possibly listen to and still keep buying, mostly old copies of things) just land on my shelves at once. It took years and I’m still sorting through copies I own. Time and effort are rewarded in this. And as was mentioned in freediver’s thread, the sonic outcomes are very source material dependent (which is true with CD as much as with the LP). If you decide this is for you, you can have great fun with it. I think you probably can do it without a deep expenditure of money, but it will take some time and a little effort. bill hart |
I'm a 71 y/o geezer and my hair cells are deteriorating. Hi fidelity was great when it came in. My father helped pay for his college education playing is small combo's in the pre-war 1940s and gigged some and played sax for fun as an adult. I tromped across a lot of his 78's as a toddler. My first stereo was entry level, affordable, Dynaco stuff bought through a catalog in 1968. 35 years ago I passed those Dynaco speakers onto my father with his first and only component system. My parents are gone and those speakers still sound pretty darn good and one of my sons will pass them onto my granddaughter in a couple of years with some other used components. I've been through some moderate components and speakers as my income picked up and bought Mark Levinson mono-block preamp and amp, Magnapan 33s and a Velodyne 15 SW, Proceed, Audioquest and Kimberwire in 1988. The stuff is probably worth $12 - $14K these days but was bought with the intent that it would be my system of a lifetime. I'm a doctor and knew then that my hearing would only deteriorate with time. By the early 1990s I was only listening to digital media, CDs and as streaming and downloads came and quality improved turned to only buying and listening to that medium. I have sons, two of whom are musicians one like my dad only part time now the other full time in New Orleans. Twenty years ago I was taken aback by their purchase of vintage turntables and a third son having picked up my old mothballed Technics TT. At the time they were primarily interested in new "Indy" album releases but they also began getting into some other stuff Jazz from the 60s and 70s and some classic rock
and more recently Jack White and the like. They do listen to their digital mixes and streaming for the most part day in day out. For me long work hours and the convenience of digital without having to get up to change records and the need for a new cartridge or better TT left me with no interest in my vinyl until a few years ago. Four to Five Years ago I was fascinated that they were able to discern quality differences between their affordable but good digital systems. Even as I listened to their systems when vacationing with them in Portland OR or New Orleans LA I could detect differences as well. Clearly the digital crushed the flaws of the analog recordings but even on those vintage turntables with modestly priced affordable upgraded cartridges there was an appreciable quality to the analog recordings. I have listened to the latest digital, expensive but getting more affordable and it is true that for my 70 y/o ears it is difficult to appreciate anymore that analog vs digital difference. I had been sitting on a pretty large Jazz collection from the 1960s through the early 1980s as well as rock including first issue Hendrix, some C&W and Classical. So three years ago I bought an entry level Pro-Ject carbon TT with a heavy acrylic platter and dived back into the vinyl having slowed down on work hours now finally retired. I still mostly buy digital media but occasionally buy that special vinyl recording. Sometimes a well preserved vintage album, sometimes an moderately priced audiophile jazz or rock remaster or occasionally a new artist's album. When I buy these vinyl albums are special. That is my background from a lifetime of listening. This is what I want to tell you. What we are listening to are art forms. Only at the turn of the century did recorded music begin to vastly enhance accessibility. Hi-Fi was good Stereo better and equipment has only gotten better and better. Live performance is one medium but recording, some in studio and some live are other types of media and the delivery vinyl, CD digital and so on are all valid forms. Vinyl albums are their own special things. Think of original one of a kind as in a live performance. Think of a print, in some cases a limited edition woodcut, texture other kinds of prints or a high quality photo of the work. My rig is now vintage audiophile. For me it is still good but there is better stuff for only a little more than what I have in mine. So I ask. How much wall space do you have for art work? How much do you have to spend. What value do you find in a slightly damaged work from a famous artist. Are some pieces not about resale value or what others value but what catches your eye, tickles you, makes you laugh or cry? Is it about what connects you to other sentient beings living and dead? In short does it deliver? Many of you enjoy Jazz. There are no recordings of Billy Bolden perhaps the earliest of Jazz notables but in the early 1940s Bunk Johnson, who was the only living person to have actually played with Bolden in that first decade of the 20th century, was discovered old and toothless in the deep south. A bunch of those early 40s jazz musicians like Armstrong pitched in to by him a new set of false teeth and a trumpet. Johnson was recorded live and in studio. The music was/is wonderful and the recording quality good for the times. As was the case at the time bass register recording was shallow but his trumpet rings pretty true. In the late 50s the recordings were remastered in Hi-Fi. I still have my fathers vinyl 33 1/3 bought in 1959. The cover and recording are worn. I also have the album in digital and bought a new re-release 180 gram vinyl album with the original album cover and liner notes for a gift to my musician son in New Orleans. I still listen usually to the digital (although the vinyl will still play it sounds rough) while holding the old album cover with its wonderful liner notes. I just recently joined and this is my first post. I don't blog anywhere but have enjoyed reading these Audiogon blogs good for some laughs as well as having found some technical stuff helpful and the perspectives all valuable. So thanks! I would say don't stew too much. Enjoy, love, laugh or cry and live it up while you can! Music makes life sweeter. |
mrpostfire, you don't have enough money for what you seek, and that is the "vinyl mystique" many of us are enjoying. I've read the recommendations, and if you followed them, you would be buying someone else's junk, without sufficient knowledge to put it together. I recommend that you start an analog savings account, and gather more information in the meantime. |
Reel to reel is not as expensive as you might think. While I only recommend new TT and Cartridge; a good used reel that has been refurbished can be as good as new. Believe it or not, when you guys who like to "stream", record that music on a 2 track reel, you will have some of the best "analog" you have ever heard when you play it back. |
I lived with Snap, Crackle, and Pop, all the way up to the advent of CD, 40 years later. Wow, no Snap, Crackle and Pop; these CD's are amazing. Later on, some guy who was into the high end, said "What's the big deal"? He didn't tell me that his cartridge cost as much as my entire rig; consequently, there was no big deal, the big deal was on the high end analog rig, but you had to be able to pay the cost in order to be the boss. Today, we have convoluted cheap Snap, Crackle and Pop record players with the sound of "high-end" analog rigs in such a way that the "newbees" think they're going to get the "vinyl magic" out of one of the cheap Snap, Crackle and Pop rigs; it ain't going to happen. Almost any CD player will sound better than a cheap record player. Why didn't I hear all this "vinyl magic" 40 years ago before I got into the high end, and before CD? The answer is quite simple; without high-end components, there is no magic. Anyone buying cheap analog is wasting their money. |
