TW ACUSTIC/VPI 2 GREAT TURNTABLES WELL MADE GREAT SERVICE BOTH WONDERFUL SOUNDING AS WELL! |
I'm not sure there is any utility to threads like these. While I own a VPI Aries 2, it has seen many upgrades any there have been so many revisions to peripherals, that any comparison becomes virtually impossible. For instance, even if you were to consider the stock Aries, there is the cartridge to consider, the tone arm cable, the base the table is sitting on, whether the table is properly leveled; has the user optimized VTA and VTF; the phono preamp; interconnects; power cords; power conditoner; quality of AC coming into the house/apt; room acoustics; genre of music, preamp; power amplifier; tubes (if not SS). Truth is, it would be hard enough comparing two of the same tables in different settings let alone one table to another. I guess if you compared the two tables, VPI and Raven One in a controlled setting, in the same room, on the same platform, with the same tonearm and cartridge and run through the same electronics and same cabling, playing the same source content, the comparison might hold some validity, but of all the "this vs. that" threads we see on this site, how many have been conducted where the variables have been minimized?
That being said, I am sure both of these tables are wonderful feats of engineering and one can and should be completely content with either one of them. If you add to the foregoing the psychological affect of defending your own sizeable investment, you can see that other than the entertainment factor, there is really little to be gained by these threads. |
Ebm
What did your new AC1 replace and which were the other tables you mention? |
I just went to see the Berlin Staatskapelle do Mahler #8 at Carnegie Hall. This is my reference for what a great turntable should sound like. My RAVEN AC 1 comes close to replicating the performance however no system can do this in a home setting. When I purchased my turntable from HIGHWATER SOUND I compared it to my turntable which had just been updated and also compared to another table around the same price. All tables used GRAHAM PHANTOM and ORPHEUS cartridge. I listened to RAVEN AC1 for over 2 weeks. The RAVEN AC1 in my system did everything better- bass imaging, sound stage and depth etc.At this point my dealer HIGHWATER SOUND got me a new RAVEN AC1. He (Jeff) came over 3 times to double check everthing on the table. I have never had better customer service. I am now going to update to RAVEN AC3, BLACK NIGHT Battery power supply and BLACK NIGHT Feet as soon as they are ready.I must say this turntable really helps me enjoy my large classical record collection. I also have 2 good friends with Great VPI based systems and they have even larger classical record collections and both their systems are WONDERFUL. Both of these friends do agree that the RAVEN AC1 is by far these best turntable that I have ever had in my system.
. I feel live classical music is the ultimate referance. However, a great turntable and large classical record collection are great in a home system as we can not always go to live music. |
Since when does a "story" become a "fact"? |
I'm convinced the Oracle will do low end well though it just wasn't there the couple of times I listened to it.
I'll chalk that up to yet another audio dealer that doe's not know his product well nor set up.... |
If SO,sorry for my defensiveness.
Btw,I did check the test record we used at the time,on the Oracle(a table I no longer own,but "really" respect).The speaker measured down(cleanly)to 16 hz.That was reinforced by my little group of audio enthusiasts at the time.
Btw,I miss "that" speaker more than any audio toy I've ever owned.
But my Braz/Adi Dreadnaught "git" is almost as "bold",and has a lifetime warranty,gets better with age,and is much more highly regarded and valuable once it gets a few years on it!
Kinda like "things audio".No? -:)
Best |
Sirspeedy,
No offense intended. It was all about your use of the word "literally". It conjures a very funny image, sort of like that old speaker ad where the guy (in profile) is sitting in his chair and being "blown away" by his speakers. That's all. I understand what you were trying to say. And yes, I have much to learn. |
"P" ...if the table could not "do bass",the speakers would not have performed as such....
It was meant to be a bit of an "exageration",but you might not have picked up on it(actually you most likely "did") and your goading remark speaks volumes about you,personally,Imo.
Btw,only two of the four towers were dedicated to bass.You probably have not been around long enough to remember "that" speaker.I'm not too surprised by your reaction.You'll learn more as you gain some experience,I guess -:) |
Now that I've caught my breath, I guess it was the Oracle turntable that blew the doors off his room. Even funnier. |
This has become both informative and entertaining. VPI vs. Raven One....Here's what I noticed... by Madfloyd I used to own four tower Huge Infinity speakers. The Oracle literally blew the doors off of my previous listening place. by Sirspeedy Thanks for those. I've heard Madfloyd's VPI in another system and am very interested in reading about his results with the Raven. And the description of Sirspeedy's doors being blown off their hinges by four speakers is the funniest thing I've read in days. |
HifiGary,here is am excerpt from a recent conversation I had with a dear friend.
He is a retired music reviewer,but has considerable contact with some curent equipment reviewers/industry folks.
I am stating this as an answer to your original post ONLY!!
It is something you may find interesting,but is not the gospel,so take it as basic input....
My pal and I were discussing the current audio industry in general,and stated that he has a close relationship with some very well known folks(audio journalists).The subject of Turntables came up,and VPI was included here.
His story was interesting,as he'd mentioned there was a "serious" comparison(I was asked not to be overly specific)between the "latest" VPI Super Scoutmaster and a European six figure table,that had been considerd the Holy Grail at this point.
The comparison was very carefully carried out(from what I was told).These guys know what they are doing!
The VPI came in at almost exactly the same "standard of sound" as the BIG BOY design.Basically they had to really stretch,to figure out which table was "on" at the time.
I was told this was not going to be exposed in any venue,BUT is is a "fact"!
A well designed,not overly costly design outpointing/equalling(to some high brow folks)an extremely expensive/flawlessly set up high end design,that was previously considered unbeatable!
Draw your own conclusions!!
Btw,as to the mention of an Oracle being rather bass shy...I don't believe that to be the case!!
I used to own four tower Huge Infinity speakers.The Oracle literally blew the doors off of my previous listening space.The speakers had big time bass capability,and the Oracle "did" my LP's to the max!
I ALWAYS try to hear "exact" same LP's on different systems,because in the real world NOBODY can do serious A/B'ing anymore.Let's get real!!
It is not a stretch to understand that when some folks move on to a new table,there is usually some other updates/upgrades done as well.Do we "all" really give credit "only" to a new component,after other variables are done to the system too?
If that were the case,I'd have been blown away by a plethora of new componentry in my old rig,after "just" employing a mere 70 dollar PS Audio wall wart product.The wall wart was a huge improvement in bass,but I'd made other changes as well.I could have easily thought it was my table/arm/cartridge/amp upgrade/tubes...you name it.Ya live and learn-:)
Btw,yes,I am no longer actively an audio system owner.So what?
I've gotten "back" to collecting acoustic fretted instruments,and studying Music Theory( a pain in the butt,but it needs to be understood).That was my passion before audio,when my kids were babies.I need to have some physical interaction with music these days.Just my own take and NO MORE than that,regardless of who says what!
Btw,my sound is definitely better than yours-:)I'm kidding.Don't get peeved.
I think I still know a thing or two about decent sound,and good value.
I hope someone saves a few bucks,if considering what "gives" in this hobby.Yer not going to go wrong with a newer VPI,if you get it set up "correctly"!You may have enough left over to take a nice vacation this year.
Still,guys like Stiltskin,and especially Downunder surely have systems to be proud of.What's not to like?
That takes nothing away from expensive stuff,which still happens to be quite good!
Adios |
Peterayer:
Here's what I noticed:
1) Tonal balance: The VPI table & arm were dark in comparison. My room is not overly lively, but not too damped either, yet most vocals sounded muddy or recessed in the mix. There was very little sense of air etc. Switching to the Raven One/Triplanar all this changed. The top end just sings and is full of detail and life.
2) Weight: The Raven One is considerably lighter than the VPI (mine had the Super Platter which was very heavy) but the sound is much more weightier and full with the Raven. Instruments have more substance than they did before. Even the highs have weight where they were thinner sounding before.
3) More LPs sound good: Only a fraction of my collection sounded good before and I found that I'd keep the ones that did near the turntable and played them more for that reason. Now I go back and find LPs that sounded mediocre and find they sound great. I am enjoying my entire collection!
4) Analog is better than digital: I can now finally say this without fooling myself. Everything sounds organic, detailed and I can crank up the volume without harshness. I use a ModWright Transporter for digital (brings weight and a sense of analog to the sound), but it doesn't compare.
5) VTA on the fly! I never thought I'd appreciate this as much as I do, but it's wonderful to walk up the table and twist a dial and correct overal tonal balance. I do this instinctively, almost subconsiously. Further, all adjustments to setup are much easier.
6) I don't feel the need to use any sort of clamp. Mind you, based on other comments (including Emailists above) I did buy a clamp and copper mat to experiment with. But all in all, playing LPs has never been easier.
I could probably go on... but I need to go eat lunch. :-) |
Emailists: Could you comment on your additions, the platform, weights etc. There is a recent review on Stereomojo re weights and clamps. For all I know, it is your review. I would recommend a Raven owner having a look at the site. All I have done to my Raven one is add Stillpoint feet. |
I own both a TW Raven AC-3 and VPI HRX tables.
Both are wonderful sounding tables and each has their positives and negatives.
While I can appreciate Speedy trying to hype up the buy American view, stating that the TW or Transrotor or any other of the multiple German tables as being inedequate is plain silly.
We all should be rejoicing that turntables and analog in general is growing and we have more quality choices we can make than ever before.
Why did I buy my TW raven AC-3. Easy - freedom of choice. It is a well made product that will last forever. It's speed control is exceptional. The main selling point for me is the multiple arms and cartridges you can run at the same time. You can do it easily and it makes analog more fun - period.
I agree with Raul that tonearms with interchangable headshells is a great way to play with multiple cartridges.
BTW, Thomas's new VTA armboard looks like a Godsend for any great tonearm out there that does not have VTA on the fly like the VPI, Graham or Triplaner. This gives you more choice of tonearms.
anyway, support analog and spread the money around all the worthy global choices and we will all enjoy analog for a long time more.
cheers |
Hifigary - I think the Raven One would be a huge improvement over the Aries, and you will enjoy great music for many years to come.
There appear to be four discussion points on this thread: price, engineering, sound and the US dealer.
Price - The Raven One is quite a bit less than the SME 10 as a price point example, and there is no comparison between the two. The sonic qualities of the Raven are simply outstanding. Even the Raven Two is less than the SME 10. And as for the AC-1 - it is much less than the SME20 and a bit over half the price of the SME30. I'm not trying to pick on SME, but am simply using it as a pricing point.
Engineering - the Raven and AC are finely engineered tables - from the bearings to the platter, motors and isolation. There is no doubt that Thomas did his homework from an engineering perspective.
Sound I have had both musicians and recording engineers comment that the table has the best timing I have ever heard in a table, that the nuance in this table is unbelievable". And finally: "Musical - as close to being in the room with the musicians as you can get". When this comes from both the guys in front and behind the control room glass this says a lot.
Dealer Jeff Catalano of High Water Sound is a fair, honest and reputable individual beyond reproach. He wants folks to be able to enjoy their system, and will work with them to match components to their specific systems. From my personal dealings with Jeff he has advised me on where it is worth spending money and where it is not whether those funds be spent with him or with another dealer. He is not a high pressure sales guy but one who is interested in satisfied listeners in the end.
I own an AC-3, and as you can tell from my sound comments above I feel it has taken my analog rig to a new level. I am a happy, happy listener and that is the highest praise I can give to the price, engineering, sound, and US dealer of the TW Acustic tables. |
Thanks, Sirspeedy for the information. |
I was asked by a poster here to jump in and add my thoughts, being a Raven One owner.
First of all, I never understood why some people give VPI a bad rap. It seems like a well built, well engineered product. I don't have enough experience with VPI's as to even comment about their sonic characteristics.
As most people realize, auditioning just the table part of the equation is rather difficult, but David seems to have some experience hearing his Raven against some other tables in his own system, so I'd like to hear more of his opinion on the matter.
Personally, I went from a tweeked out WTT classic to the Raven One/Phantom in stock form, and got a massive upgrade in sound quality, using the same cart.
Since that point I have tweeked out the Raven a bit, adding a sistrum SP-1 stand, TTWeights clamp, platter, and periphery ring, and just recently, a Halcyonics platform.
I never used to be a believer in suspensions, but having heard what an excellent (though expensive) suspension can do for performance, I now believe in using one.
The Raven in stock form I believe represents an excellent value, and allows much room for growth and improvement through tweeks and add ons.
Maybe I am being naiive, but I feel at the current level of performance, realism, and master tape type sound I am getting with this set up, that I can't imagine many turntable setups being able to significantly "better" the playback I am currently getting with this rig. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. |
I find Audiogon threads to be informative and entertaining. When I first read the original post, I thought that this thread would be the former. However, it has become the latter. |
Since I am an Oracle owner let me chime in here.
Compared to my RX-5000 or Sp-10 Mk2 the Oracle gives nothing away in bass performance as far as I can hear. What I can say is that the Oracle is leaner on the lower registers because it might just be more accurate. Reminds me of Quad 63's in the bass area - fast / accurate / realistic / lacking in quantity not quality. No mid bass emphasis here, just clean low end. Reminds me of why the Linn was so popular in the 80's until everyone realized how colored it really was in the mid bass area.
I put a Grandezza arm on the Oracle with a ZYX UNIverse. Now you have a deck and cart that have the reputation of being lean in the bass department. And it can be so if the cart loading is not optimal, but when everything is set up properly, I am almost embarrassed by both the quality of bass as well as the amount.
Oracle is one of the most accurate and musical deck out there - a great buy and you won't see mine up on "Gon for sale; period - and those that know me can testify to how fickle I am!!!!!!!!!!
Steve |
Really,this is getting a good bit out of control!Why I am asked to mention comparisons sort of misses my point about other viable options.I've not A/B'd virtually any product over the years,other than power cords or cables.
I "have" heard the exact same program material on numerous occassions,on many products/tables.Enough to offer up my own "opinion" on the matter.That is about it!
No ill will,to any posters here.This is an opinionated forum.NO?
Best to all........"almost".
Now I've got to watch the season's last episode of "24"!I've got some "opinions" as to how that might end,but better not go "there".Besides that question has not been raised here,so why start trouble? |
Sirspeedy, yes the Oracle Delphi IS an excellent table but after repeated listening I found it a little light in the bottom end for my tastes.
The Oracle was one of the tables I gave seriuos consideration to over a year ago also it's a hell of a lot better looking then many on the market including the Ravens.
BTW they also make a killer phono stage, it really is superb. |
Sirspeedy --I am puzzled by your refusal to mention anything about comparisons you have made between the turntables you like and the TW design which you dont.I have no agenda and have appreciated your thoughts on other threads.I would think you would supply an answer to the question posed without hesitation.I have a suspended Kuzma Reference and am thinking of getting a TW designed Table therefore I looked forward to your comments.
Im sure you understand that your silence may make one wonder. |
Madfloyd,
Could you describe the differences you hear between your old VPI rig and your new Raven One/TriPlanar? I assume you are using the same Dynavector XV-1S. Thanks. |
Dlanselm,sorry but I've learned my lesson!I'm done on the subject.
It's kinda like I called someone's kid ugly.No intention to purposely ridicule anyone's choices.Only to mention my thoughts on better/less costly designs,as how they might relate to this product.....IMO.
I mean,the original thread "does" ask a valid question!!
It does not mitigate the fact that the Raven is a well liked and good product.Maybe just not my cup of tea.
As for any "history" I may have had previously in the hobby/industry....that is totally irrelevent to the subject.Believe me,nobody would benefit from my going "there".
Including the folks cluing some into my agenda!!!!!
I'd rather stick to the specific subject,regarding viable design,and my "opinion" on the VPi's or any other stuff.
Btw,just for the heck...The Oracle Delphi is a fabulous design,and gorgeous to behold.Not a bad choice if one is interested in saving a few bucks,with alot of bang for the cash outlay.It has been around for awhile and represents a very well thought out design....
NO,I'm not going to give a dissertation on why I believe it "is" so,and offer comparisons.Check it out!
Whether I am in,or out of the hobby....
Would a retired athelete be less able to analyze his sport? After four decades of involvement.Hmm?
Best |
Dlanselm, I agree and will contact you directly regarding the cart.
I think its interesting that you consider spinner distant third. I have read your blog and followed your evolvement from Brinkmann and on to now Raven, I think it gives credibility to your choice I also know Dgad bought his Raven very long before it got the "flavour of the month" sticker that some seems to give it. |
Sirspeedy, thanks for the response. Would you be willing to share SPECIFIC details about your recent comparisons amongst these products you speak about that helped you come to these value and design opinions? Thanks in advance.
|
OK,I understand how you guys can feel....Yet,my experiences in the hobby really have nothing to do with any of my own personal opinions here.To insult me by claiming you know my agenda is absurd.
I think I gave enough design emphasis to my other choices.Do some home work yourself to determine if the other designs are better.
I'll happily stick to my statements,made previously!Attempting to figure out if I had a hidden agenda is total baloney!
A design will either stand up to what is out there or not.If there are better,lower cost designs that I feel are better,I'm certainly allowed to mention them.
There are some folks who like getting a better mouse trap for less cash.
The objective was "solely" to give exposure to better,lower cost designs!....They happen to exist btw!
And why does it have to come off as "bashing",just because my emphasis is on better designs,for less money?I never said the Raven was crap.I believe I said it sounded good!
Btw,I've been around the block with "many" competitive products too...Hands ON!I've most likely owned as many as you have as well.That should give me the ability to make a judgement here.I don't claim to be an expert,but a person with a little knowledge of some things.If I can point some folks in a direction and save them some money,what so bad?
If you own a Raven,be thrilled.Good for you!
You have to understand that anyone is entitled to their own opinion,and psychoanalysis of an agenda(like DGAD's of me) is just a copout ,IMO....You can put whatever spin on it that makes you happy,but there is some mightily good designs around for alot less dosh!
At the very least,it gives me the right to express my own thoughts,and if you are happy with whatever you own that is great as far as I'm concerned.Do you honestly think I care what someone owns?Be happy with whatever you are comfortable with!
One thing for sure....don't try to analyze my agenda!You don't know me,or my experiences.
I have only respect for the body of Audiogon members,but I know a few things which allow me to express my personal opinion...for whatever reason!
The bottom line is(and I did mention this)just look at the white papers offered by other competitive mfgrs(Basis has some great ones)....
Make a decision based on common sense and what seems to be the most plausible design....That was actually my point,originally.....Yet ruffling feathers on this forum is not uncommon....I'll walk on egg shells in the future.
|
Perrew, your questions are very relevant, though perhaps better served in another tread. I know your considering the cart in question, please feel free to contact me, via email or better yet a phone call. Your underlying premise is correct though, I can only determine the cart did not sound good on my arm, and table. Though, in my personal vinyl hierarchy, the spinner is a DISTANT third after cart being one and arm being second. Regrading cart break in, NO component or cart has every "broke in" enough, if my first impression was not VERY favorable. IMO carts do tend to get more spacious sounding after some hours, however, I feel the tonal character remains fairly constant, though the VTF and VTA settings change throughout its life, to accomplish this.
David |
I can add that I'm a very happy owner of a Raven One. I upgraded from a fully decked out VPI Scoutmaster and no change in my system, short of changing speakes, was as dramatic and positive.
Mind you, I also switched from the VPI JMW9 Signature arm to a Triplanar at the same time, so I can't truly say how much the table was responsible vs the arm, but together the difference was astounding. |
Dlanselm I like your stance on conrolled opinion, I think that is a way of judging components that doesnt get enough weight in the equation. May I ask how many hours you had on that cart before you concluded it didnt sound good and with what arm combinations you used it? |
People can get so passionate about this hobby. There are no absolutes and many paths to a satisfying system. There is no best. I find there are many more good products than bad which
is a good thing for all of us. |
Sirspeedy,bashing is OK, IMO. For instance, I just had a well hyped cartridge in my own system, it was the ONLY new variable, it made my whole system suffer. Am I now to assume my whole system sucks, or did just the new cart? My opinion on this cartridge is pretty "controlled". Is your opinion on the TW a "controlled" opinion?
Bashing a product is fine, as is calling into question value, IMO. However, I would like proper context. For instance I heard the TW with this cart and this arm, played through these electronics and these speakers, all of which I am very familiar with. Or better yet, I had the TW in my own system for audition, and BTW I had on hand both the SOTA and the VPI, and I switched cart from table to table. Thus, I got a pretty good feel for the character of the table.
However, unless I missed it you have not provided specific information. Again feel free to bash but please do provide more information when doing so. Without such information opinions are of ZERO value.
David
|
The Raven one is not overpriced, the AC and blacknight are, overpriced sort of. In my opinion all audio gear is overpriced after say $5k per component and maybe $10k for speakers. Sure audio can and does improve when you go up in the price range but the improvements are very little when compared to the price.
I think a well matched $20k system can do better in a dedicated and treated listening room then a $100K system in a modern living room.
Just paying a lot of money doesn't garentee a great system. |
Sirspeedy has an issue of other sorts. He has sold off his system due to having a problems that have nothing to do with TW.
Sirspeedy why don't you just come out and state your true complaints. It isn't fair to everyone here for you to bash a product based on your personal grudge. I am sorry but it is far too obvious. |
Sirspeedy,
You have a long way to go to convince me that I made a poor decision on buying a Raven.
When I bought my Raven One I wasn't influenced by any magazine review because there wasn't any, at lease here in North America.
And here on Audiogon, at the time, there were a handful of favorable mentions of the Raven tables, with this I added TW Acustics to my short list of tables.
You say, A good VPI or Sota will knock the socks off the overpriced , underdesigned but oh so pretty Raven.....
Overpriced and under designed !?, what compared to VPIs Superscoutmaster Reference complete with MDF plinth and very poor rubber belt drive system....
This is your second attempt at bashing TW Acustics though this time around you have included owners.
Your simply bias towards TW Acustic and if you actually heard one no matter what it did well you would never admit to it.
Just what is it your going on about, are you trying to save us from something?
Do you see yourself as the Ralph Nader of this hobby?
Sirspeedy, it's a hobby, calm down. |
May I ask, are the Raven sold via regular Dealers or direct from the US Importer? |
The fact that a product is "flavour of the month" as TW is, does not, of itself mean it is overhyped rubbish. The One in particular, I think is exceptionally good value. It is an intrinsically simple design, but beautifully engineered and built to very tight tolerances.
As to the question of whether a turntable can make much difference to the sound. All a table needs to do is turn at a stable speed, provide good support to the vinyl and exclude sources of vibration getting in and drain out vibration from the cartridge. It sounds easy, but it seems pretty hard to do. Having gone through 5 tables over the years, all I can say is, changing to the Raven One has made as much difference in sound reproduction as any other step I have taken over the years.
|
I listened to the Raven AC a lot of times, well, it is black and heavy. I listened to the Raven AC a lot more times (I have one) and it is colourful and light. IMHO of course? |
Sirspeedy,
If you find the Raven overpriced, then I wonder how you find some other designs priced well above? You have me quite surprised. Then how is a tiny cartridge priced more than many a turntable for what is essential almost no material cost. I just don't get it. Do you honestly believe that a $1000 cartridge is that different in cost of production from a $8000 cartridge. You might as well condemn the whole audio industry. Which is how you described to me your sentiments earlier. And not in relation to a TW table but to your experience with other products. Are your listening biases the only ones to be accepted? I have listened with you in a few rooms years ago, and I would easily state that our biases diverge.
On to the VPI. Many an original owner of a VPI turntable, or SME, and quite a few others have gone away from suspended decks. I assume they all had to convince themselves they achieved better performance and couldn't hear any improvement since obviously the design of a suspended deck is far superior in your book. Note: how I am not mentioning just TW. The arguement here is more of a suspended vs. unsuspended. There are several adherents to both camps.
I might add, VPI and others have greatly improved the design of thier turntables since some of the newer decks have displaced them on the market. Many of the design improvements are for the better. I wonder why it took so long. Maybe competition in this case benefits the consumer. But the VPI isn't inexpensive or even less expensive. As a value at the lower end it is a great table. But the high end turntables are costly. The new platters have definitely improved the sound of recent. Based on discussions with owners of VPI tables, not all models are equal. I won't go into the specifics as I have no personal experience.
Finally, I have a friend w. a very high end turntable that borrowed my Raven motor. A motor that has been measured to be accurate to one of the highest rates possible. This measured by an independant reviewer and not at the motor but instead at the platter. If I recall correctly something like 0.03%. That is direct drive teritory. Also measured noise was incredibly low.
All I can say is my friends amazement of how such a motor improved the sound of what is already a very well engineered turntable that was rated class A in stereophile for many years. He immediately noticed the increase in speed accuracy from the reduction of noise and the improvement in tracking the inner tracks on an LP. Much of this performance can be had on the lowly Raven One.
You are being too black and white in your statements earlier and my response is in accordance. When you live with a turntable and have owned others then please have such a firm valuation of a specific brand. Mine are based on experience and for sure some personal bias. But... my friends w. lesser decks were not told that mine is better. I did mention the ease of changing, adjusting and running multiple tonearms. The speed stability and the ease of use or all excellent. And last is the bearing design is unique among turntables.
As far as a record clampling system, how does the TW prevent the use of a record clamp. I own a Harmonix Clamp and a few outer rings. I just hate outer rings as they are a pain to use. I almost never use the outer ring (which I love) for that reason. Especially if you want to use a 9 inch tonearm or a triplanar. |
Sirspeedy et al, I do see SS's point. There IS a lot of unsubstantiated hype in today's market place, but there are also some great products. Like Mosin, I would feel more convinced of Sirspeedy's specific contention regarding the Raven (which one, for example?) vs VPI and Sota, if he were to cite his specific reasons. However, it is also true that once one has spent big bucks, it is darn near impossible to have a truly objective opinion about the item one has paid so much money for, unless it has been a total disaster. So this is definitely not a knock on Sirspeedy. |
Interesting thread. I'm not sure how much of it I find to agree with, but it is interesting in ways. Most of all, I find the opinions of the posters to be the most interesting part, not from a technical point of view, but a psychological one. Bantered back and forth are comparisons, even blanket ones, between various makes without any consideration based in true fact. Oh, well. I would like to see some concrete explanations of these premises presented, and I am pretty sure the original poster was hoping for some, too. Owning some brand of turntable doesn't make anyone a pro about sonic presentation of all turntables, suspensions, or anything else.
I suppose I'm a direct competitor of TW Acustic, but I don't believe it is fair for guys to summarily trash their turntable without something other than supposition and insinuation. So far, that's what we have seen, however. To name brands that are better without anything to back up the claims doesn't seem too credible to me.
My suggestion to the OP is that he seek out the turntable, and hear it for himself. Only then can he make an educated decision.
Win |
If the response is an insinuation towards my post,I might add that assuming something is meaningless in your case.If I am not the target,then I apologize whole heartedly!
If I am the subject of your response......you know "not" what you speak of...for sure!!
Discounting or bad experiences has "nothing" to do with a vastly overpriced product(not a bad product,btw,just easily bettered for less cash) in comparison to better,lower cost designs.Made "here",and for alot less dosh.
Take the VPI TNT for example...one half the cost and a far more advanced design.Usualy that equates to more detail from a disc.I assume that is what we are striving for.
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In deciding if a response is worthy or not, enough has been said that my input is needed.
No denying a top suspension is needed. This is correct. Also, I find little will compare to a turntable that has a separate suspension from the table. This is where turntables such as VPI & others can fall short. They are limited in their design to the suspension they can deploy. While an unsuspended deck can be designed with less compromise provided that an external suspension system is in use. Many people do use Vibrplanes, MInus K platforms or the like. There are even those who have suspended turntables that are placed on additional suspension knowing about the limitations of suspension design in the eixisting deck.
Unfortunately some posters here did not get off on a great foot w. certain dealers, or did not receive the discount they wanted towards a purchase and will bad talk a product in light of the fact that they didn't want to pay to own it. You know who you are. I don't find your tactics fair to the other members of this forum. |
I have to admit I had expected some nasty responses to my "opinion".Impressive that Audiogon "can" be polite when a favorite product is criticized.I think anyone has this right.
The recent thoughts are pretty much on the money,imo,and I have heard the Raven on quite a few occassions.Not really as important as one might think,if you want to break down what a good LP spinner should do!
From 40 years in the hobby,there are some aspects of table design that simply seem to be a good idea,at the very least....
The TW Acoustic Raven does NOT emply them!
This does not mean it cannot allow a record to sound "good",but it is easily bettered by a "Boat Load" of competitive tables,and to go into denial mode only means one is defensive of how their money has been spent.Or,as is so common on this forum,protective of a favored dealer,or group of audio pals.Sheesh!!
Two things come to mind,and it does not require extensive experience or a "full range" system(or even a really good system)to understand a "superior" design(of which the "pretty,and heavy" Raven is NOT).....
First,and products from VPI or SOTA researched this,understood it, and advocated it for years....A good record clamping system will allow the record to develop MUCH MORE inner detail!
Second(this is where SO many mfgrs simply drop the ball,and it is a shame that so many hobbyists are so damn defensive about it....an "effective" suspension!!!
Like a REAL ONE!!!
Oracle,VPI,SOTA,Linn,Walker,Anything designed by "Conti"/Basis Audio "ALL" know this,and if you read the white papers from some of these designers,it is NO stretch to understand that at the very least...."it's not a bad idea to have one".Oh,sorry!That was common knowledge long ago.This is the new high end stuff.Didn't I read recently about some $60,000 table that we should consider SOTA?
Of course one can get into stuff like heavy platters not "really" being all that they are hyped up to being.For example(and unless someone has truly developed something like a Kryptonite bearing)just using "common sense"(not common in the High End)wouldn't a heavier bearing ultimately begin to develop noise,from the mass and weight of "that" platter?Bushings don't like that!OK,I'm being a bit picky!!...
Not really,but I'm attempting to be "thoughtful about how my audio money should be spent.And,anyone is surely open to getting "whatever" they desire....Mine is ONLY a "thought piece"!....Phoney dealers,get rich from some of us putting too much stock in their motives,and attempt to be helpful.
The fact is that high end (at this point in time,and especially in this economy)requires a hobbyist to exercise some "thought" as to what they are buying,and "how" it approaches what they want it to do(the product at hand).
SORRY!I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers,but I do know of a hobbyist who only purchases stuff if it has a vibe of desirability,from a "cost and review popularity standpoint".The fact of the matter is,his set-up has never sounded anything beyond "average"(from a load of other folks familiar with the set-up).
Of course "his" dealer of the moment(who comes on like his "new" best pal)is not about to spoil things,so the beat surely will go on.....Laughable!!...
Btw,the room is attrocious!So,it's a pity actually,but he is happy!...Nothing really wrong there,actually.Yet,and yet,the guy is NOT a "thinking hobbyist",and has been at this for decades.
My advice is to educate oneself as to what is necessary to acquire accuracy in LP playback(or any other audio matter)and try to pick out the most "viable" choice.
You'd be surprised how sensitive a good consumer can be,in short order,especially when spending monies.....There is a load of baloney in "today's" high end!......Far more than at any other time!!Your dealer is NOT your pal!Just ask him if he wants to hang out some week-end!
Best to all |
Sirspeedy, I'm a VPI fan but have you heard the Raven? It seems to be a very good table. Are you speaking from direct experience? |
One of the biggest "phoney" rip offs in the high end is on the turntable front!!Here,most folks simply go for the biggest hype products,and seldom use common sense to make a personal decision.
The table is meant to "simply" spin a record,without adding much of it's own character.Of course getting it "perfect" is kinda tough,but there are a host of not very pricey tables that will do the job most admirably.
Yet,this is high end audio,and alot of folks like to think they are getting better performance,because they have spent alot of money.These are the not too high audio IQ hobbyists,who are led by the nose by audio reviewers or,as in the case on this thread(from personal experience)by audio retailers,who have ONE agenda....guess what that might be?
A good VPI or Sota will knock the socks off of the over-priced,underdesigned(but OH So Pretty)Raven! I agree with you. Unfortunatey it is not the performance, which counts today. Most buyers have different priorities and of course everyone thinks, he got the best (whatever it is). The customer normally compares old with new, the usual mistake. An old belt is inferior to a new one, old bearing oil is ....yes, you know. Most want something, they dont know what, but the "machine has to do something", it has to be fast, it has to be powerful in Bass or whatever. Most units today are highly colored. That means too, they have "something" in some frequency which is always there, "a kind of speed" for example, that means, even Schubert will sound fast, or they have no good abilities in the high frequency range (based on non existing vibration abilities etc....) But only a few want a 1:1 unit (recording:reproduction), they dont know what to do, because it can be possible, that they dont like what they hear. Then it is bad (but in reality it could be right) and they lok for something else. They dont know for what, but they know it has to be out there. 20 years ago the magazines had a different policy, they tried - in general - to push the curtain and they made serious comparisons. That's gone. Today it is business, every month a new Hype and we all know, how it can be made. I listened to the Raven AC a lot of times, well, it is black and heavy. The Linn LP12 of today. |
Sirspeedy, I would have agreed with you years ago, but comparing the TW to some very fine turntables yielded a distinct sonic improvement. Much to be said by the wonderful motor, vibration dissipation, and sonic performance. I know you have your disappointments, but most people who don't have "full range" systems capable of playing bass would not hear a difference between many very good tables. But when you get to the level of a true full range system, the differences in design, isolation, speed stability and energy dissipation become very apparent. |
Sirspeedy, before I read your response I ( with my dealer's advice) decided to keep my Aries and upgrade my nearly worn out Benz LP to a Benz LP-S as a more economical and immediate way of improving the front end instead of a wholesale change of the table. I also got a new platter belt which has made an improvement-BTW VPI's belts leave a lot to be desired-what with stretching over time and costing 20 bones a piece! But better that than the cost of a new belt along with a new table. |
One of the biggest "phoney" rip offs in the high end is on the turntable front!!Here,most folks simply go for the biggest hype products,and seldom use common sense to make a personal decision.
The table is meant to "simply" spin a record,without adding much of it's own character.Of course getting it "perfect" is kinda tough,but there are a host of not very pricey tables that will do the job most admirably.
Yet,this is high end audio,and alot of folks like to think they are getting better performance,because they have spent alot of money.These are the not too high audio IQ hobbyists,who are led by the nose by audio reviewers or,as in the case on this thread(from personal experience)by audio retailers,who have ONE agenda....guess what that might be?
A good VPI or Sota will knock the socks off of the over-priced,underdesigned(but OH So Pretty)Raven!
You also get a Company that is local(in the USA)and will probably be around after the economy shakes out....yet....
Common sense does not always prevail in high end audio!!
Best to all |
