One of the biggest "phoney" rip offs in the high end is on the turntable front!!Here,most folks simply go for the biggest hype products,and seldom use common sense to make a personal decision.
The table is meant to "simply" spin a record,without adding much of it's own character.Of course getting it "perfect" is kinda tough,but there are a host of not very pricey tables that will do the job most admirably.
Yet,this is high end audio,and alot of folks like to think they are getting better performance,because they have spent alot of money.These are the not too high audio IQ hobbyists,who are led by the nose by audio reviewers or,as in the case on this thread(from personal experience)by audio retailers,who have ONE agenda....guess what that might be?
A good VPI or Sota will knock the socks off of the over-priced,underdesigned(but OH So Pretty)Raven!
You also get a Company that is local(in the USA)and will probably be around after the economy shakes out....yet....
Common sense does not always prevail in high end audio!!
Best to all |
I have to admit I had expected some nasty responses to my "opinion".Impressive that Audiogon "can" be polite when a favorite product is criticized.I think anyone has this right.
The recent thoughts are pretty much on the money,imo,and I have heard the Raven on quite a few occassions.Not really as important as one might think,if you want to break down what a good LP spinner should do!
From 40 years in the hobby,there are some aspects of table design that simply seem to be a good idea,at the very least....
The TW Acoustic Raven does NOT emply them!
This does not mean it cannot allow a record to sound "good",but it is easily bettered by a "Boat Load" of competitive tables,and to go into denial mode only means one is defensive of how their money has been spent.Or,as is so common on this forum,protective of a favored dealer,or group of audio pals.Sheesh!!
Two things come to mind,and it does not require extensive experience or a "full range" system(or even a really good system)to understand a "superior" design(of which the "pretty,and heavy" Raven is NOT).....
First,and products from VPI or SOTA researched this,understood it, and advocated it for years....A good record clamping system will allow the record to develop MUCH MORE inner detail!
Second(this is where SO many mfgrs simply drop the ball,and it is a shame that so many hobbyists are so damn defensive about it....an "effective" suspension!!!
Like a REAL ONE!!!
Oracle,VPI,SOTA,Linn,Walker,Anything designed by "Conti"/Basis Audio "ALL" know this,and if you read the white papers from some of these designers,it is NO stretch to understand that at the very least...."it's not a bad idea to have one".Oh,sorry!That was common knowledge long ago.This is the new high end stuff.Didn't I read recently about some $60,000 table that we should consider SOTA?
Of course one can get into stuff like heavy platters not "really" being all that they are hyped up to being.For example(and unless someone has truly developed something like a Kryptonite bearing)just using "common sense"(not common in the High End)wouldn't a heavier bearing ultimately begin to develop noise,from the mass and weight of "that" platter?Bushings don't like that!OK,I'm being a bit picky!!...
Not really,but I'm attempting to be "thoughtful about how my audio money should be spent.And,anyone is surely open to getting "whatever" they desire....Mine is ONLY a "thought piece"!....Phoney dealers,get rich from some of us putting too much stock in their motives,and attempt to be helpful.
The fact is that high end (at this point in time,and especially in this economy)requires a hobbyist to exercise some "thought" as to what they are buying,and "how" it approaches what they want it to do(the product at hand).
SORRY!I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers,but I do know of a hobbyist who only purchases stuff if it has a vibe of desirability,from a "cost and review popularity standpoint".The fact of the matter is,his set-up has never sounded anything beyond "average"(from a load of other folks familiar with the set-up).
Of course "his" dealer of the moment(who comes on like his "new" best pal)is not about to spoil things,so the beat surely will go on.....Laughable!!...
Btw,the room is attrocious!So,it's a pity actually,but he is happy!...Nothing really wrong there,actually.Yet,and yet,the guy is NOT a "thinking hobbyist",and has been at this for decades.
My advice is to educate oneself as to what is necessary to acquire accuracy in LP playback(or any other audio matter)and try to pick out the most "viable" choice.
You'd be surprised how sensitive a good consumer can be,in short order,especially when spending monies.....There is a load of baloney in "today's" high end!......Far more than at any other time!!Your dealer is NOT your pal!Just ask him if he wants to hang out some week-end!
Best to all |
If the response is an insinuation towards my post,I might add that assuming something is meaningless in your case.If I am not the target,then I apologize whole heartedly!
If I am the subject of your response......you know "not" what you speak of...for sure!!
Discounting or bad experiences has "nothing" to do with a vastly overpriced product(not a bad product,btw,just easily bettered for less cash) in comparison to better,lower cost designs.Made "here",and for alot less dosh.
Take the VPI TNT for example...one half the cost and a far more advanced design.Usualy that equates to more detail from a disc.I assume that is what we are striving for.
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"P" ...if the table could not "do bass",the speakers would not have performed as such....
It was meant to be a bit of an "exageration",but you might not have picked up on it(actually you most likely "did") and your goading remark speaks volumes about you,personally,Imo.
Btw,only two of the four towers were dedicated to bass.You probably have not been around long enough to remember "that" speaker.I'm not too surprised by your reaction.You'll learn more as you gain some experience,I guess -:) |
OK,I understand how you guys can feel....Yet,my experiences in the hobby really have nothing to do with any of my own personal opinions here.To insult me by claiming you know my agenda is absurd.
I think I gave enough design emphasis to my other choices.Do some home work yourself to determine if the other designs are better.
I'll happily stick to my statements,made previously!Attempting to figure out if I had a hidden agenda is total baloney!
A design will either stand up to what is out there or not.If there are better,lower cost designs that I feel are better,I'm certainly allowed to mention them.
There are some folks who like getting a better mouse trap for less cash.
The objective was "solely" to give exposure to better,lower cost designs!....They happen to exist btw!
And why does it have to come off as "bashing",just because my emphasis is on better designs,for less money?I never said the Raven was crap.I believe I said it sounded good!
Btw,I've been around the block with "many" competitive products too...Hands ON!I've most likely owned as many as you have as well.That should give me the ability to make a judgement here.I don't claim to be an expert,but a person with a little knowledge of some things.If I can point some folks in a direction and save them some money,what so bad?
If you own a Raven,be thrilled.Good for you!
You have to understand that anyone is entitled to their own opinion,and psychoanalysis of an agenda(like DGAD's of me) is just a copout ,IMO....You can put whatever spin on it that makes you happy,but there is some mightily good designs around for alot less dosh!
At the very least,it gives me the right to express my own thoughts,and if you are happy with whatever you own that is great as far as I'm concerned.Do you honestly think I care what someone owns?Be happy with whatever you are comfortable with!
One thing for sure....don't try to analyze my agenda!You don't know me,or my experiences.
I have only respect for the body of Audiogon members,but I know a few things which allow me to express my personal opinion...for whatever reason!
The bottom line is(and I did mention this)just look at the white papers offered by other competitive mfgrs(Basis has some great ones)....
Make a decision based on common sense and what seems to be the most plausible design....That was actually my point,originally.....Yet ruffling feathers on this forum is not uncommon....I'll walk on egg shells in the future.
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Dlanselm,sorry but I've learned my lesson!I'm done on the subject.
It's kinda like I called someone's kid ugly.No intention to purposely ridicule anyone's choices.Only to mention my thoughts on better/less costly designs,as how they might relate to this product.....IMO.
I mean,the original thread "does" ask a valid question!!
It does not mitigate the fact that the Raven is a well liked and good product.Maybe just not my cup of tea.
As for any "history" I may have had previously in the hobby/industry....that is totally irrelevent to the subject.Believe me,nobody would benefit from my going "there".
Including the folks cluing some into my agenda!!!!!
I'd rather stick to the specific subject,regarding viable design,and my "opinion" on the VPi's or any other stuff.
Btw,just for the heck...The Oracle Delphi is a fabulous design,and gorgeous to behold.Not a bad choice if one is interested in saving a few bucks,with alot of bang for the cash outlay.It has been around for awhile and represents a very well thought out design....
NO,I'm not going to give a dissertation on why I believe it "is" so,and offer comparisons.Check it out!
Whether I am in,or out of the hobby....
Would a retired athelete be less able to analyze his sport? After four decades of involvement.Hmm?
Best |
Really,this is getting a good bit out of control!Why I am asked to mention comparisons sort of misses my point about other viable options.I've not A/B'd virtually any product over the years,other than power cords or cables.
I "have" heard the exact same program material on numerous occassions,on many products/tables.Enough to offer up my own "opinion" on the matter.That is about it!
No ill will,to any posters here.This is an opinionated forum.NO?
Best to all........"almost".
Now I've got to watch the season's last episode of "24"!I've got some "opinions" as to how that might end,but better not go "there".Besides that question has not been raised here,so why start trouble? |
HifiGary,here is am excerpt from a recent conversation I had with a dear friend.
He is a retired music reviewer,but has considerable contact with some curent equipment reviewers/industry folks.
I am stating this as an answer to your original post ONLY!!
It is something you may find interesting,but is not the gospel,so take it as basic input....
My pal and I were discussing the current audio industry in general,and stated that he has a close relationship with some very well known folks(audio journalists).The subject of Turntables came up,and VPI was included here.
His story was interesting,as he'd mentioned there was a "serious" comparison(I was asked not to be overly specific)between the "latest" VPI Super Scoutmaster and a European six figure table,that had been considerd the Holy Grail at this point.
The comparison was very carefully carried out(from what I was told).These guys know what they are doing!
The VPI came in at almost exactly the same "standard of sound" as the BIG BOY design.Basically they had to really stretch,to figure out which table was "on" at the time.
I was told this was not going to be exposed in any venue,BUT is is a "fact"!
A well designed,not overly costly design outpointing/equalling(to some high brow folks)an extremely expensive/flawlessly set up high end design,that was previously considered unbeatable!
Draw your own conclusions!!
Btw,as to the mention of an Oracle being rather bass shy...I don't believe that to be the case!!
I used to own four tower Huge Infinity speakers.The Oracle literally blew the doors off of my previous listening space.The speakers had big time bass capability,and the Oracle "did" my LP's to the max!
I ALWAYS try to hear "exact" same LP's on different systems,because in the real world NOBODY can do serious A/B'ing anymore.Let's get real!!
It is not a stretch to understand that when some folks move on to a new table,there is usually some other updates/upgrades done as well.Do we "all" really give credit "only" to a new component,after other variables are done to the system too?
If that were the case,I'd have been blown away by a plethora of new componentry in my old rig,after "just" employing a mere 70 dollar PS Audio wall wart product.The wall wart was a huge improvement in bass,but I'd made other changes as well.I could have easily thought it was my table/arm/cartridge/amp upgrade/tubes...you name it.Ya live and learn-:)
Btw,yes,I am no longer actively an audio system owner.So what?
I've gotten "back" to collecting acoustic fretted instruments,and studying Music Theory( a pain in the butt,but it needs to be understood).That was my passion before audio,when my kids were babies.I need to have some physical interaction with music these days.Just my own take and NO MORE than that,regardless of who says what!
Btw,my sound is definitely better than yours-:)I'm kidding.Don't get peeved.
I think I still know a thing or two about decent sound,and good value.
I hope someone saves a few bucks,if considering what "gives" in this hobby.Yer not going to go wrong with a newer VPI,if you get it set up "correctly"!You may have enough left over to take a nice vacation this year.
Still,guys like Stiltskin,and especially Downunder surely have systems to be proud of.What's not to like?
That takes nothing away from expensive stuff,which still happens to be quite good!
Adios |
If SO,sorry for my defensiveness.
Btw,I did check the test record we used at the time,on the Oracle(a table I no longer own,but "really" respect).The speaker measured down(cleanly)to 16 hz.That was reinforced by my little group of audio enthusiasts at the time.
Btw,I miss "that" speaker more than any audio toy I've ever owned.
But my Braz/Adi Dreadnaught "git" is almost as "bold",and has a lifetime warranty,gets better with age,and is much more highly regarded and valuable once it gets a few years on it!
Kinda like "things audio".No? -:)
Best |
