Upsampling, Can there be too much?

To answer your question directly, on the most analytical equipment, 192/24 is exceptionally hard to beat.  So when I am recording LPs, I stop there. 

I have two albums however that run right over 96K without stopping, so obviously the above is not adequate for them. However the tangible perceptive difference is negligible. 

More power to those that can hear a difference but in my situation with the Cary DMS -500 player. (The DMS-500 series and up- offers users the option of converting PCM sources into a DSD64, DSD128, or even DSD258) I have yet to really hear any noticeable difference among any of my stored files nor amongst the differing formatted content streamed (TIDAL, QOBUZ) when engaging this unique use  “ on the fly” 128 Trubit DSP feature. As much as I WISH heard it , EVERY format sounds pretty good!

All DACs in one way or another "shape" their small signals... And some offer "pure" hardware as well as some choice of "filtering"... And then again some DACs offer you both NOS and some other options like upsample rates and filtering... Take the Denafrips Pontus II for example, very popular... Just one of many... As in hardware so also in software...

And where do you draw the line with so called "pro studio" vs consumer software... Seems like a price-point vs knowledge/experience thing...

For Chord DACs the following is from Rob Watts...

"For Hugo 2/Qutest the signal path is: 1FS to 8FS input > 16FS WTA1 filter (49,152 taps) > 256FS WTA 2 filter > 3rd order 2048 FS filter > pulse array noise shaper at 104 MHz > analogue

When an M scaler is connected, the WTA1 filter is not used, and it is passed through to the 256 FS WTA 2 filter."

What this means is that sending any file that is less than 16FS (705.6 kHz or 768 kHz) will cause these Chord DACs to upsample internally... Sending 16FS will cause the first filter, WTA1, to be bypassed... This also occurs with the TTs and Daves although the WTA1 fillers have more taps...

With some upsampling software you also get the chance to use various filters to "shape" the sound... Anything from Linear phase sharp to Minimum phase slow...

Choices are good as everyones kit, room, ears and brain are different...

FWIW We use professional DAW software to create .wav files of 384 KHz 32 Bit Floating Point, and our Chord DACs sound better than ever replaying these on ROON with absolutely no DSP of any kind.  Higher resolution source files are better than any DSP we have ever tried over the last 5+ years.    Why 384?  There is laboratory data showing that the digital noise floor dissipates around 356 (see DXD specs), and 32 Bit Floating Point everything sound superior in every way to 24 bit and below; way superior [Try It You'll Like It]

If up-sampling is all you got:

Our experience has revealed that the DAC/Streamer up sampling to DSD 2.8/5.6 affects the most pronounced change in auditory information.

Upsampling adds nothing but distortions.

Well, I wouldn’t go this far either. There are measurable and IMHO audible differences in how the frequency response changes with most DACs as the sampling frequency is increased to 88 kHz and above. Frequency response measurements are perhaps the thing listeners are most sensitive to. For this reason I have my Roon set to upsample below 88kHz and otherwise give me the original signal above that.

The biggest difference I’ve ever heard though is with how poorly older DACs handle Redbook playback vs. many new models. Back then it made 100% sense to upsample. Now, not so much.  I think it is from that early time that audiophiles are still stuck on the myths of high resolution formats.

@erik_squires  has it correct, I've experienced this. @adasdad  looks like he's found the answer for basic chain with similar setup.

I no longer pay attention to over sampling up sampling, whatever, 16/44 is just fine, and with your Aurender the transport and streaming should be running neck and neck. I gave up cd transports years ago, and I had a pretty nice transport.

@brandonhifi, the first thing that I’d like to ask is what made you get an Aurender W20SE music server? Very nice! My go to audio gear guy in the Twin Cities since 1976 has been Bill Soderholm who owns Stereoland in Bloomington, MN. I bought my first audiophile system from him when I was a sophomore in college, which was a Marantz 100w per channel stereo receiver, 4 Bose 901 speakers, and a Thorens turntable. He’s got some really amazing stuff at his newly expanded showroom. 
 

   My suggestion when using a TT2 and an M Scaler is to let Rob Watts magic do it’s work and to not use any of the upsampling capabilities of any other powered boxes that you might have in your listening chain. I’ve found this approach to give the most accurate and non-fatiguing music reproduction. It’s also rewarding if you bypass the less then great Amanero USB input of the M Scaler in favor of using a single BNC cable instead. Here’s part of my setup. Music Server  > AQ Diamond USB > Audiowise SRC.DX > single WAVE Storm BNC > Hugo M Scaler > dual WAVE Storm BNCs > Chord Hugo TT2. 

I like upsampling music playback, NOS sounded a bit rough to my ears, but some people swear by it as some holy grail DAC mode. Definitely subjective opinion here.

Agreed, unquestionably subjective. Some listeners do not like up/over sampling due to algorithms/mathematical use and subsequent manipulated-recreated or reconstruction of the signal. So definitely alternative approaches preferred by different listeners. Thankfully options of choice exist.

Charles

Well, in the past (around late '80s) we do have 8x oversampling CD players.  That means we are very accustomed to 16bit 352.8KHz sound signatures.

Personally I tested myself on a headphone, anything more than 24/176.4 makes no difference to me.

IMO having 24/352 is perfectly fine.  And I like upsampling music playback, NOS sounded a bit rough to my ears, but some people swear by it as some holy grail DAC mode.  Definitely subjective opinion here.

@vonhelmholtz

In this discussion, we are not talking about mastering in pro studio. My initial post was in context of upsampling at consumer grade level, which nets nothing; all that perceived detail is nothing but a form of distortion.

I do see your point, a DSD file professionally up sampled in a mastering studio probably carries more legitimate info across the spectrum. Personally, I prefer to listen files in its native resolution. 

@lalitk 

I think that was my point.  Results are dependent upon implementation.

@vonhelmholtz 

I hope you’re certainly not suggesting that results from consumer grade up-sampler is on par with mastering done in a professional studio? 

Perhaps, a blanket statement regarding up sampling is overly general.  Octave records has recently started mastering in DSD256, but prior to this they mastered in DSD64.  So, they have been upsampling the 64 to 256 and so far the reviews, to my surprise, are uniformly positive. 

Upsampling adds nothing but distortions. Some people enjoys added distortions! IME, once you hear a DAC with a high precision master clock, you would not feel the need for gimmicks like upsampling.

Chains of digital devices, each with their own clock/jitter signatures are a bad idea, as each has to attempt to de-jitter and lock the clock according to its own peculiarities. IMHO, those who keep chasing a new upsampler are chasing different, but not necessarily better, jitter signatures.

A rational observation.

Charles

Upsampling was much more valuable 10 years ago with DACs that didn’t do Redbook justice at all. Those have pretty much vanished.

Now the big differences in upsampling are in how the DAC treats the upper octaves. A good, modern DAC with a 96kHz signal sounds pretty good to me.

Chains of digital devices, each with their own clock/jitter signatures are a bad idea, as each has to attempt to de-jitter and lock the clock according to its own peculiarities. IMHO, those who keep chasing a new upsampler are chasing different, but not necessarily better, jitter signatures.

No issues using USB with Innuos Statement to Moon 680D.

Not a fan of upsampling either. 

@roxy54 

I throughly understand your point. With DACs those are distinctly two different types of products for distinctly different types listeners.Very different presentations. Not much cross shopping there.

Charles

@brandonhifi 

The physical transport is in everyway more detailed, tonally more rich and fuller and deeper sounding. I can't say instrument separation is better because the W20SE is masterful at that also. But after correcting the loose cable issue, like finding a needle in a haystack in my rig, The Jay's Audio CDT3-MK3 is nothing less than magical. Everything I play through it, if well recorded, because it is perfectly revealing, but if well recorded, is jaw dropping. Sometimes this last week I'll just sit in my listening chair and grin ear to ear because never in my life have I heard anything that good even in all my high end hi fi shops in Minneapolis, USA.

Understood

Those “physical media “ silver disc can sound genuinely stunning with a high quality CD transport. You have that and a top notch streamer. Congratulations!

Charles

@brandonhifi 

Funny?

USB  connection requires a constant handshake. Reboot, restart or repower do not ALWAYS work. Close to last resort physically r & r'd the output cable.

Voila 

Funny not!

I have no problem with Aurender N30 upsampling with Mscaler.

It seems that Macaler get less burden.

It help to have linear power supply with Mscaler in additionn to Dave.

Thomas

@brandonhifi 

Shunyata might be the best way to go and I spent more on the NR power cables than the Everest, but this was the biggest upgrade in sound that I’ve made so far. If you are a dealer ignore this next part, but they had a large price increase a month or so back..so look for old stock.

@vonhelmholtz 

😂 Funny you mentioned the Everest, was thinking about upgrading my IsoTek Sigma to the Everest this week.

@brandonhifi 

I didn't want that response.  All 6 conditioning channels on my Everest are taken. 

@vonhelmholtz 

Excellent question, and honestly I'm still in the midst of the first week of constant comparison of that very thing. But from several days of critical listening I can say without any doubt the physical CD on the flagship Jay's is superior. I even have the 4 thousand dollar Transparent XL BNC on the W20SE, but the few thousand dollar less expensive cable Wave Storm BNC on the Jay's.

The physical transport is in everyway more detailed, tonally more rich and fuller and deeper sounding. I can't say instrument separation is better because the W20SE is masterful at that also. But after correcting the loose cable issue, like finding a needle in a haystack in my rig, The Jay's Audio CDT3-MK3 is nothing less than magical. Everything I play through it, if well recorded, because it is perfectly revealing, but if well recorded, is jaw dropping. Sometimes this last week I'll just sit in my listening chair and grin ear to ear because never in my life have I heard anything that good even in all my high end hi fi shops in Minneapolis, USA.

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What differences do you hear when you rip a cd to the Aurender vs play on the Jays?

The issue with the Jay's was because a loose cable, completely solved, worked with Alvin from Beatechnik, Jay's Audio official dealer, and got it fixed, upsampling stacks perfectly now from CDT3-MK3 to Chord Mscaler to Chord Hugo TT2. 

One of the hardest things for me in HiFi especially using power conditioning and LIFEPO4 batteries for half your components it tight secure wiring. I even use the best Gotham quad shielded cables from Ghent Audio and still.... LOL what a journey HiFi is. Funnest hobby in the universe.

I used to own the lowest model of Audio Note UK DAC,. I can't recall the model, but it used tiny tubes that were soldered in. It was a revelation at the time. I now have an Audio Note Kits 2.1 Signature, professionally built and upgraded by them a few months ago. I would not go back to a design that uses oversampling, unless it was a dcs or something of that caliber, which I could never afford.

After using oversampling players for years, the non-oversampling sounded much more natural and fluid. At the level that I can afford, it sounds more like the real event coming through the speakers rather than a cobbled together re-creation. I can't imagine how good the top-level Audio Note DAC's are. 

@roxy54-

Do you use an Audio Note DAC? If so- which model?

Listen to an Audio Note DAC, and you'll know that there can be too much. 

@vonhelmholtz 
The Chord Mscaler only has 1 USB, 2 optical toslink, and 2 BNC inputs. The W20SE has usb bit perfect output only so no upsampling possible with USB output. I find the upsampling on the Aurender using my BNC Transparent XL cable far superior to USB. So I use both BNCs for the Aurender and Jay’s.

My experience is it depends on the track, and yes, there can be too much of a good thing. 

@brandonhifi 

O.T. Curious..On the Aurender site it suggest AES, or coax output is preferable to USB. Have you found this to be true?