Upgrading from Wilson Sophia 2's?

A used pair of Vandersteen 5s would be a fine choice
Perhaps later upgrade them to a pair of 5As
which offer a deep natural sound stage,seamless coherence & frequency balance of course at a higher price.
Both speakers feature self contained bass amp and a neat in room bass tuning that delivers a far smoother in room bass response this allows your music to sound more natural
in your room.
Cheers Johnnyr

French_fries

"listening for 5 min vs. listening for 20 or more..."

Perhaps that's why my local Wilson Dealer only allows for listening to a couple tracks they select at a time, when auditioning Wilson or Ayre gear.

No matter though. Detecting speakers which are predisposed to being more on the articulate side of the coin than that of the eufonic side is no hard task. I simply can not, as another posted here, see Wilson with any power train other than one comprosed of tubes.... but that's just me.

Just heard the Magico V2 again today at my dealer. Compared them to Rockport and Verity at the same price point. The Magicos were extremely involving, detailed, nuanced, not fatiguing and simply a joy to listen to. Compared to my Egglestons, they are more articulate and have much better, deeper and clearer bass with no overhang. They are musical. Best I've heard.

So you went back for more, huh, Peter? You getting serious?

Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts. I agree that a tube amp would probably curtail the edge a bit, but I'd be worried about bass control. I have a VTL ST-150 (that I use in another system) that I tried and the bass was just plain sloppy. I worry that with a tube amp I'd need to have speakers with built in amps for low frequencies (like Vandersteen or Genesis).

Dave, interesting about your experiences with Monster cable. I've done a fair amount of cable swapping. Part of my challenge is a 50 foot speaker run. At this length, the cables make a huge difference, but tonally and grain. I'm currently using a high gauge cable from Paul Speltz (anti-cables) that are working out well and have seemed to reduce the glare a bit.

Just buy the next pair of used 5A's and be done with it! :-)

Don't you wish that I had sold you mine and not decided to keep them??

I am not so sure that Madfloyd needs to replace the Sophia 2's - he might just need to find some good tube amplification to drive them.

The question is, what would provide the tube magic and work in Madfloyd's dual purpose system? I know he likes the sound of my tube amps (Atma-Sphere MA-1's), but they just won't work in his setup.

George

Madfloyd, are you running 50 ft speaker cables or 50 ft balanced IC's to your monoblocks next to the speakers?

I would second (or third?) the 5As. Try them set up well in your room and I'm guessing you'll stop second guessing your system and just enjoy it. Then again, nothing would surprise me I guess.

I'm running 50 foot speaker cables. While the character of the cable certainly comes through at an extreme length such as this, it's not as detrimental as you would think.

Every once in a while I move my monoblocks beside the speakers (using 50 foot balanced cable between pre and amp) to reassure myself that there is no big night and day difference. Granted I'm typically trying different brand speaker cables, but I don't hear an improvement. In my situation, having the amps up front would be very inconvenient, but I'd find a way to make it work if the sonic improvements were worthwhile; I just don't hear a difference (personally).

I have a VTL ST-150 (that I use in another system) that I tried and the bass was just plain sloppy.

If I remember correctly, damping factor(an amp's control over speaker cone) goes down as series resistance goes up(with longer cables).

So, asking a tube amp(which starts out with a fairly low damping factor, already) to drive extremely long speaker cables is probably a sure recipe for sloppy bass.

What do you prize more, the speakers, or the electronics?

I still feel investigating some other cable integrations will help. And there are indeed some room issues which likely need addressing.

I don’t know a lot about a lot, but I do know a system needs matching. Just because all the electronics are expensive doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll be synergistic.

As important as I’ve found cables to be, I’ve also seen from many of the posters here the amp + speaker combo is as or more important. I don’t feel that XA 100.5 is the right amp, if all the preamps in the house when mated to it, yield the untoward results you mention here.

One has to consider the common denominators, right?

IMO, your tube preamp appears the weakest link aside from possibly the 100.5 Pass amp…. with those speakers. There is no mention of rolling tubes in that tube preamp. Done that yet? Try some RCA or Telefunkens.

I’ve yet to hear Wilson speakers that weren’t powered up well. Big SS Monos usually…. Despite the reputed ease of driving the Wilson numbers claim their speakers are .

Another thing is owning a too revealing rig. Too much of a good thing? Is just too much of a good thing. Been there and done that too. The listenable recording list gets a whole lot shorter. That’s a clue about the system… and/or the room.

Draping that screen from bass chunk to bass chunk will be more than a subtle move. I’ve got a 106 inch wide, 116 WS on wall screen for my projector. Opened up for HT all is well, BUT with music the sound is sharper. Noticeably.

The type of drapery is important too. More pleating helps by breaking up reflections with some absorption and of course there’s the esthetics of a dressed wall versus a plain one. If motorized, you’ll add to the wow effect too.

I’d start with a 2:1 ratio and move up from there to suit. You want to be able to breathe thru them but not extremely easily… not like speaker grill cloth. I use moderately light drapes to cover the screen, and at the opposite end of the room, quite heavy ones, close to thermal density drapes.

I don’t move my speakers either. If I thought I needed to do that I’d think about on wall or in wall speakers for HT and leave my mains set for 2ch.

Personally, I’ll exhaust every avenue I can think of and those other’s folks here will or may mention, if financially do-able, before I think of switching speakers. Repositioning them even if I think they’re right anyhow, wires, tubes, etc. Even a gear change, like the preamp or amp.

I mean if you can afford to get new speakers on the level of your Sophia IIs, or greater, then why not experiment or re-experiement with these other, far, far, far, far less expensive paths? In the end if new units are the case, you’re going to be that much further along.

VTL makes some tube amps I’d bet will drive those Wilsons… Spectron has some accounts which indicate some of their amps if outfitted well meet or exdceed the performance of the Sigfrieds. Lots less $$$$$$$$$ too.

I have found that as the systems become more refined there is a point where those old mediocre recordings become listenable again. Yes you can hear the shortcomings but also the musicality comes through.
You have great electronics, but I think the cables are an issue. I'd try shorter cables (Bolder Cables or Dynamic Design are two which I know are clear and neutral). Very good gear is revealing but does not sacrifice musicality, cable anomalies can cause a subtle exaggeration of certain frequencies which may sound revealing but also fatiguing and simply not natural.

I recently switched tubes in my Audio Valve Eclipse to Telefunkens and it's sounding pretty sweet. I'm also pretty happy with Paul Speltz' heavy gauge Anti-cables, but since it's not a huge investment, I'm going to try Dave's suggestions of Monster cables.

Thanks for the suggestion of draperies for the screen - I'm going to look into this. Can you explain what you mean by 2:1 ratio, BlindJim?

Bet a set of Wolcott P220M Monoblocks would drive the living snot out of those Sophia's (in a good way)

Madfloyd

Hope this is of some help.

Going into this experiment I wanted a more home like atmosphere as that room serves also for company & casual conversation, as well as film and 2 ch.

The results exceeded my expectations… though I’m not done with it yet.

I tend to avoid dead rooms or those sufficiently dead. Movies seem to require a bit more lively atmosphere than does purely audio sessions… IMO

2:1 drapery ratio

If you drape a wall which is 120 inches… 10ft. using only 10 ft width of material there is no drapery effect, only a flattened piece of material hanging in front of that wall now. Bland looking, and likely not worth the trouble.

There will be little absorption of upper mids and top end energies, and no diffusion.

Pleating or folds in the drape material occur when more material is placed in the same space. A rule of thumb is at least 1.5 to 1. In the case of a ten foot wall, fifteen feet of material would be needed to provide a moderately fashionable look. 4:1 would just look busy and out of place most often

I did that exactly. Beginning with 1.5:1. It wasn’t a bad thing, but it didn’t look that great and didn’t perform too well either. This was my first trial with the now rear of room heavy curtain panels. Because they are panels, simply add more to suit.

Having to go with an on wall DIY screen required I drape that wall as well. The exp of the first effort showed me I needed less density in the material and more diffusion, yet the screen needs not be seen when the curtains are closed either.

So I went with 2:1 and lighter materials, rather than the 3:1 with thicker cloths on my front wall. I wound up with about a 2.5:1 ratio in the end.

The ratio past 2:1 is mostly preference and the material type chosen for the project. Thicker stuff makes for broader folds. Folds add fullness to the look and diffusion for the sound. As the density of the fabric attenuates various portions of the bandwidth when place in direct relationship to the loudspeakers, and less so at the sides. Always though, fabrics will have a decided effect on both, the freqs and reflections, being mindful of the quantity, degree of transparency of the fabrics being used, and placement..

Here’s one of the places where true transparency is not the goal.

Given drapery panels are thoughtfully chosen & placed they provide an alternative path to treating the ‘sound which professional studio’ acoustic panels routinely do not achieve unless they are customized specifically.

Given the cost of rails, rods, traverses, and the panels themselves, it’s no cheapy move, at least not in my opinion. But it sure has an influence and doesn’t look like architecture or science is controlling the space.

Naturally, with the regulation of the lengths of ‘stand offs’ (the posts to which the traverse is attached extruding from the wall where it is also attached at it’s other end) you can add to the sonic illusion of depth as well. Or simply cover up your use of dedicated acoustic devices such as 2 – 4 inch bass traps or diffusers too. thereby reducing the techy look.

The key really lays in the density of the fabric and the amount of it which is used. Neither is it a perfect or even necessarily predictable means to an end. But then just what room treatments are?

It is a sure help regardless, over that of untreated stark walls, and especially if the room must double as a stereo room too. and just who wants to see the screen when not in use anyhow? It’s a big one eyed reflector staring down at you.

Some trips back and forth to the store is going to be needed to fine tune the sound. True too unless you have them custom made your choices will also be minimized by the fabric selection itself. One will have the look you want, but not be right in density. And so on.

J. C. Penny’s has the greater assortment in ready made panels… and a great starting place in my area.

I suggest if you indeed go this route, begin with two sorts of materials, medium (not easy to breathe thru) and dense, harder to but doable… and soft. Avoid stiff materials altogether, unless only diffusing is sought.

Motorized traverses are all over the web. Nearly all will require ‘pinch pleated’ panels, NOT tabbed or threaded, and a ceiling mount is preferable, on wall are as well available. That search might be daunting and give way to a custom curtain making endeavor.

I compromised a fair amount in my own undertaking and still spent around $2K hung and done for both walls, front and rear. …even with the discounts I got as the results of my then dating the saleslady.

I knew zip going into this about curtains except it was curtains for the sound if something wasn’t done soon. I have no remote controlled opening or closing. Threaded panels on custom rods. I learned a lot too, and feel I’ve attenuated much of the nasties, although more attention is yet required.

There are fabrics too which are just like wall paper that are expressly oriented for acoustic treatments that claim to dampen as well as break up waves and eliminate reflections. There’s an ample selection and I’ll likely use that for my ceiling only… as I poorly chose to go with an off white pearlescent color. Dull yet too reflective for my screen material choice.

Thanks for the detailed post, Blindjim; it gives me lots to consider.

No prob... curtains too remind me of younger days when theaters were theaters! Very opulent & richly outfitted with thick carpeting, textured wall papers oversized banisters leading up to actual balcony's and with huge screens.

Curtins always were raised or separated to show the screen. Sometimes a few were opened to fully reveal it.

The sound sometimes wasn't on par, but the experience and memories remain.

I still think that's a very cool way to introduce a viewing session. I wanted to recapture as much of that novelty as I could in my room.

Last week I listened to the most recent sophias and watt puppy sashas. I found the sophias brighter and fatiguing, and heard nothing fatiguing on the watt puppys on the same recordings. However, the sophias were driven by an ayre integrated, while the watt puppys were driven by McIntosh 300W tube monoblocks.

I preferred the watt puppys and left with the conclusion that watt puppy's have sweet highs, and are very musical. Sophias - I don't know if it's the speakers or the system, but they were harsh on harsh recordings. I have lots of harsh recordings, I don't want them to sound harsh when I play them.

By the way - alot of live unamplified music is harsh too - some chamber performances and symphony performances I've been to come to mind. Just because a speaker is producing a harsh sound doesn't mean the recording or the speaker is bad, it could just be that the live event was fatiguing, and they're doing a high fi job.

Hi!

I have Wilson Audio Sophia 2, and have not experienced any bright sound / fatiguing sound. However, the speakers are sensitive to fx. loudspeaker cable static electricity. You hear what you put into them. And I listen to all kind of music styles, and all kind of recordings, as I am a talent buyer within the festival scene. I have Burmester amps and cd player.

Cheeeers! Toffen, Norway

Upstream could be a factor, cables, amps, source. Ears could be a factor too, some people have different, not better or worse, just different sensitivities. They don't seem like the kind of speaker that will sugar coat the signal going into it. Don't get me wrong, they're nice, I just found the sound of the sasha setup more livable.

regards,

robert

Madfloyd,

Perhaps your problem is not your equipment but either or all of the following: 1) listening position, 2) speaker placement or 3) room acoustics.

Have you considered hiring a consultant to help you design the appropriate room treatments and positioning of said treatments? They can even help you with ideal seating position. I used Rives and the results have been excellent. I am sure there are others that would do a wonderful job as well. I think it would be much cheaper than a new speaker and probably more effective in correcting what you dislike. You can always upgrade to a new speaker later but at least you will know your room is "right".

FYI, I have a 15 X 21 X 9 room and I have a large screen on my front wall and I have Wilson speakers. I have NO treatments other than bass traps in each corner. My room was bright and had a lot of slap echo but not after treatments, absorptive and reflective, strategically placed through out room.

I have a fairly aggressive system, and went with a Marantz SA7S1 as my new CDP. I love it. It is has plenty of detail, but is also very relaxed and a bit on the warm side, so easy to listen to for hours. Might be something to consider to balance your system to your room and your ears.

FYI, I have recently evaluated a pair of Morrow Audio balanced MA4 IC's in my system. I believe Mike Morrow is onto something extremely important. Never have I heard an interconnect transform the sound of any system the way the MA4's did mine. They are so harmonicaly complete and will remove layers of distortion you may think you don't even have! The results are so phenomenal that words fail...he allows a 60Day trial/no hassle return evaluation. These aren't just a good value, they are a paradigm in high end design.

So I guess you like these better than the Monsters you had recommended earlier, Dave?

Read Dave's posting history.

Every new component is a revelation.

Until the next one.

And the one after that.

And the one after that one, too.

Even the one after 909.

It must be staisfying to never explore and discover new audio gear or to not have any excitement about your purchases. Above all else, it must be absolutely blissful to never add any value or practical opinion on a post. Audiofeil helps so many people with his incisive wit and gorilla style commentary. Check his threads for a wealth of useful information about how everyone else knows so much less than himself. You are so special...you!

I don't always agree with Audiofeil, not that everyone agrees with me, but he said what I would have liked. It is great your are pleased with what you have Dave but your posts are so predictable and over the top in recommending what you have and boldly declaring your gear as best, until, as Audiofeil says, you replace it. Just look at your recent post on speakers, declaring, "Maggie 3.6R's and 20.1's...all the rest pale in comparison." Well, these have been around for quite some time and you are just now declaring them king as you now own them, before you were proclaiming others as royalty.

I am passionate about anything I do regarding audio. Learning about audio requires owning and living with alot of different equipment. Only over time can one get a more accurate handle on what one owns and how it stacks up against whatever else has been tried. Most all of the gear I've owned has been well respected and definately first rate stuff...my personal waxing and waning regarding any particular piece of equipment is a depiction of my experences over time. To be as candid as I am with my feelings and findings enevitably gives gasoline for those who would rather torch the message than inquire for elucidation or feedback regarding a particular comment. Pretending to act like the all seeing, all knowing, all judging God of the Audiophiles is pretentious and of no real value to anyone. Over the years, I have had an extensive array of gear and have talked at length about said equipment. As a result of my posts, I have had the opportunity to interface with many interested and questioning fellow A'gon members, both on and off the web. Most of our interactions have been mutualy beneficial. When one offers no real information or in-depth information regarding first hand experiences with their own personal systems, there can be no benefit to casting off "out of context" quotes and blanket assertions. If I read a post, I take it at face value, question what I wish and then decide if I've learned something beneficial. Anyone can find fault with someone...it takes a more mentaly stable adult to enter into a conversation.

Yes, there is so much more "mentally stable adult conversation" to the words, "Maggie 3.6R's and 20.1's...all the rest pale in comparison."

To be as candid as I am with my feelings and findings enevitably gives gasoline for those who would rather torch the message than inquire for elucidation or feedback regarding a particular comment.

This isn't the case at all, it is that the message is always the same, "I have so and so and it is the best". Which leads to you being the one "Pretending to act like the all seeing, all knowing, all judging God of the Audiophiles is pretentious and of no real value to anyone."

I agree it can be easy to find fault, I can search the archives and find some of my old posts and cringe! ...I was wrong either way.

You missed the point Brianmgrarcom. I am admitting to getting overly excited about my gear from time to time. I am also the first to expose any misgivings I discover about that same gear. Few have the balls to admit that what they have purchased doesn't satisfy for the long haul. Out of context comments are worthless, regardless. You are becoming a little Audiofeil yourself it would seem. Try asking probing questions or a flat out rebuke of what I've said, supported by your own thoughts and experiences. As you said, we can all cringe at some of the comments we've made. This is Audiogon, not the National Association of Trial Lawyers.

No, I don't think I missed the point, but it doesn't really matter. BTW, don't criticize others for being critical when your replies are laced with criticism. If I have taken anything out of context feel free to enlighten me. Nobody is putting anyone on trial here. Take care, Brian

Can we get back to Madfloyd's question about upgrading the Sophia 2? I've heard his system, understand his frustrations and would like to read some more opinions in the hope of learning something.

I have Sophia 1's in a 14'W X 23'L with a ceiling that starts at 9.5' on the left side and rises to 10.5' on the right. My system and a 52" LCD screen are between the speakers.
I have tried acoustic egg crate foam, thick gathered material similar to drapes and a thick flat blanket covering the screen. The foam and gathered material tamed the "beast" but the cost was a reduction in imaging and compression of the sound stage.
The flat double thick blanket worked best and with a small pillow on the wall directly behind the system at ear level listening for hours isn't fatiguing albeit's not at 85db!!!
It seems tuning the back wall is a bigger deal in my system/room then the side wall reflections!!!

before doing any speaker upgrades I would probably consult ASC (acoustical science corp) to see if they can suggest some improvement on your acoustics if you haven't done so.
Sophias for the most part I heard them are not really aggressive speakers.
One will be surprise how much acoustics can contribute to the overall sound of a good hi end system like yours.
Good luck-all the best.

I agree regarding having your room checked out professionally. I had pair of Infinity Prelude MTS’s that were supposed to sound very flat across the frequency spectrum. In my room they were aggressive, forward in the treble and fatiguing even on a good recording. Some Core Audio Design diffusers on the back wall solved the problem and gave me a great soundstage with increased depth.

I used Rives and I think the cost was about $2,000 and I received plans with where to place treatments and the type of treatments needed. The plans include schematics of how to build the treatments. Most of the treatments are not complicated and not very expensive to make. The plans will also show you the optimal area to place for your listening position. I am guessing from the description of your room the most complicated ( and perhaps expensive) applications will be dealing with your ceiling.

I am not saying that ASC tube traps will not work but my front LF bass traps are triangular shaped floor to ceiling measuring 24"X24"X34". That is a lot of volume and I do not know if ASC, or others for that matter, have traps that big to absorb the LF needed to treat the room. I also have other traps in back that are curved and use different materials than what was used in front LF traps.