Upgrading from Wilson Sophia 2's?


Currently using these in a 14x25 room. Enjoying them for the most part, but they can sound aggressive and make mediocre recordings sound like crap and be somewhat fatiguing. I’m interested in trying something that is slightly more forgiving without sacrificing a lot of detail, air, dynamics, etc.

Any suggestions?

Associated equipment (preamps still in flux):

Amps
Pass XA 100.5 monoblocks

Preamps – Tube
Audio Valve Eclipse
Cary SLP-05

Preamps – SS
Fire H20
Wyred 4 Sound STP SE
Pass XP-20

Sources:
ModWright Transporter
Raven One TT / Triplanar / Dynavector XV-1s

Thanks.
madfloyd

Showing 5 responses by blindjim

before you go off on another pair of speakers, and I'm not a big fan of Wilson from what I've heard of them in local showrooms, I'd say try this one thing...

CAll the cable co and ask for a pair of Nirvana SX Ltd, and a pair of Nirvana SL ICs. Put the SX onto the ??? source, and the SL onto the preamp to amp.

Things should then be mo betta.

That move will cost $50 or so to find out... and that beats $10K or so, easy.

Wilson's have a bit more life in them than the Revels, but I've found both less than musically satisfying without tubes throughout... but that's just me

you could try all SX Ltd throughout too, even in speaker cables. The ambient retreval is fascinating. I'd bet they'll fix your woes... and save ya some dough in the process!
French_fries

"listening for 5 min vs. listening for 20 or more..."

Perhaps that's why my local Wilson Dealer only allows for listening to a couple tracks they select at a time, when auditioning Wilson or Ayre gear.

No matter though. Detecting speakers which are predisposed to being more on the articulate side of the coin than that of the eufonic side is no hard task. I simply can not, as another posted here, see Wilson with any power train other than one comprosed of tubes.... but that's just me.

What do you prize more, the speakers, or the electronics?

I still feel investigating some other cable integrations will help. And there are indeed some room issues which likely need addressing.

I don’t know a lot about a lot, but I do know a system needs matching. Just because all the electronics are expensive doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll be synergistic.

As important as I’ve found cables to be, I’ve also seen from many of the posters here the amp + speaker combo is as or more important. I don’t feel that XA 100.5 is the right amp, if all the preamps in the house when mated to it, yield the untoward results you mention here.

One has to consider the common denominators, right?

IMO, your tube preamp appears the weakest link aside from possibly the 100.5 Pass amp…. with those speakers. There is no mention of rolling tubes in that tube preamp. Done that yet? Try some RCA or Telefunkens.

I’ve yet to hear Wilson speakers that weren’t powered up well. Big SS Monos usually…. Despite the reputed ease of driving the Wilson numbers claim their speakers are .

Another thing is owning a too revealing rig. Too much of a good thing? Is just too much of a good thing. Been there and done that too. The listenable recording list gets a whole lot shorter. That’s a clue about the system… and/or the room.

Draping that screen from bass chunk to bass chunk will be more than a subtle move. I’ve got a 106 inch wide, 116 WS on wall screen for my projector. Opened up for HT all is well, BUT with music the sound is sharper. Noticeably.

The type of drapery is important too. More pleating helps by breaking up reflections with some absorption and of course there’s the esthetics of a dressed wall versus a plain one. If motorized, you’ll add to the wow effect too.

I’d start with a 2:1 ratio and move up from there to suit. You want to be able to breathe thru them but not extremely easily… not like speaker grill cloth. I use moderately light drapes to cover the screen, and at the opposite end of the room, quite heavy ones, close to thermal density drapes.

I don’t move my speakers either. If I thought I needed to do that I’d think about on wall or in wall speakers for HT and leave my mains set for 2ch.

Personally, I’ll exhaust every avenue I can think of and those other’s folks here will or may mention, if financially do-able, before I think of switching speakers. Repositioning them even if I think they’re right anyhow, wires, tubes, etc. Even a gear change, like the preamp or amp.

I mean if you can afford to get new speakers on the level of your Sophia IIs, or greater, then why not experiment or re-experiement with these other, far, far, far, far less expensive paths? In the end if new units are the case, you’re going to be that much further along.

VTL makes some tube amps I’d bet will drive those Wilsons… Spectron has some accounts which indicate some of their amps if outfitted well meet or exdceed the performance of the Sigfrieds. Lots less $$$$$$$$$ too.

Madfloyd

Hope this is of some help.

Going into this experiment I wanted a more home like atmosphere as that room serves also for company & casual conversation, as well as film and 2 ch.

The results exceeded my expectations… though I’m not done with it yet.

I tend to avoid dead rooms or those sufficiently dead. Movies seem to require a bit more lively atmosphere than does purely audio sessions… IMO

2:1 drapery ratio

If you drape a wall which is 120 inches… 10ft. using only 10 ft width of material there is no drapery effect, only a flattened piece of material hanging in front of that wall now. Bland looking, and likely not worth the trouble.

There will be little absorption of upper mids and top end energies, and no diffusion.

Pleating or folds in the drape material occur when more material is placed in the same space. A rule of thumb is at least 1.5 to 1. In the case of a ten foot wall, fifteen feet of material would be needed to provide a moderately fashionable look. 4:1 would just look busy and out of place most often

I did that exactly. Beginning with 1.5:1. It wasn’t a bad thing, but it didn’t look that great and didn’t perform too well either. This was my first trial with the now rear of room heavy curtain panels. Because they are panels, simply add more to suit.

Having to go with an on wall DIY screen required I drape that wall as well. The exp of the first effort showed me I needed less density in the material and more diffusion, yet the screen needs not be seen when the curtains are closed either.

So I went with 2:1 and lighter materials, rather than the 3:1 with thicker cloths on my front wall. I wound up with about a 2.5:1 ratio in the end.

The ratio past 2:1 is mostly preference and the material type chosen for the project. Thicker stuff makes for broader folds. Folds add fullness to the look and diffusion for the sound. As the density of the fabric attenuates various portions of the bandwidth when place in direct relationship to the loudspeakers, and less so at the sides. Always though, fabrics will have a decided effect on both, the freqs and reflections, being mindful of the quantity, degree of transparency of the fabrics being used, and placement..

Here’s one of the places where true transparency is not the goal.

Given drapery panels are thoughtfully chosen & placed they provide an alternative path to treating the ‘sound which professional studio’ acoustic panels routinely do not achieve unless they are customized specifically.

Given the cost of rails, rods, traverses, and the panels themselves, it’s no cheapy move, at least not in my opinion. But it sure has an influence and doesn’t look like architecture or science is controlling the space.

Naturally, with the regulation of the lengths of ‘stand offs’ (the posts to which the traverse is attached extruding from the wall where it is also attached at it’s other end) you can add to the sonic illusion of depth as well. Or simply cover up your use of dedicated acoustic devices such as 2 – 4 inch bass traps or diffusers too. thereby reducing the techy look.

The key really lays in the density of the fabric and the amount of it which is used. Neither is it a perfect or even necessarily predictable means to an end. But then just what room treatments are?

It is a sure help regardless, over that of untreated stark walls, and especially if the room must double as a stereo room too. and just who wants to see the screen when not in use anyhow? It’s a big one eyed reflector staring down at you.

Some trips back and forth to the store is going to be needed to fine tune the sound. True too unless you have them custom made your choices will also be minimized by the fabric selection itself. One will have the look you want, but not be right in density. And so on.

J. C. Penny’s has the greater assortment in ready made panels… and a great starting place in my area.

I suggest if you indeed go this route, begin with two sorts of materials, medium (not easy to breathe thru) and dense, harder to but doable… and soft. Avoid stiff materials altogether, unless only diffusing is sought.

Motorized traverses are all over the web. Nearly all will require ‘pinch pleated’ panels, NOT tabbed or threaded, and a ceiling mount is preferable, on wall are as well available. That search might be daunting and give way to a custom curtain making endeavor.

I compromised a fair amount in my own undertaking and still spent around $2K hung and done for both walls, front and rear. …even with the discounts I got as the results of my then dating the saleslady.

I knew zip going into this about curtains except it was curtains for the sound if something wasn’t done soon. I have no remote controlled opening or closing. Threaded panels on custom rods. I learned a lot too, and feel I’ve attenuated much of the nasties, although more attention is yet required.

There are fabrics too which are just like wall paper that are expressly oriented for acoustic treatments that claim to dampen as well as break up waves and eliminate reflections. There’s an ample selection and I’ll likely use that for my ceiling only… as I poorly chose to go with an off white pearlescent color. Dull yet too reflective for my screen material choice.
No prob... curtains too remind me of younger days when theaters were theaters! Very opulent & richly outfitted with thick carpeting, textured wall papers oversized banisters leading up to actual balcony's and with huge screens.

Curtins always were raised or separated to show the screen. Sometimes a few were opened to fully reveal it.

The sound sometimes wasn't on par, but the experience and memories remain.

I still think that's a very cool way to introduce a viewing session. I wanted to recapture as much of that novelty as I could in my room.