I remember long ago, as a boy, I used to be able to enjoy music without picking apart a track. is the bass tight? is the midrange clear and life-like? is the treble resolution spot on? What about imaging/sound stage?
Most people have this very same superpower - not being an audiophile. They can play a song from the worst earbuds, laptop speakers, or even computer speakers - and enjoy the music; even sing along. They aren’t thinking about "how it sounds" or scrutinizing the audio quality. Actually, they couldn’t care less. They can spend their time on other life pursuits and don’t feel a need to invest big money (or much money at all) in the hi-fi hobby.
Any psychologists or scientists in the building? (please no Amir @amir_asr) since you are neither! ...despite the word "science" being in your domain name - audio science review.
Please, I beg you. Help me get away from this hobby.
Imagine - being able to enjoy all of your favourite music - while still achieving that dopamine rush, along with serotonin, and even oxytocin - the bonding hormone, which can be released while listening to songs with deep emotional messages, or love songs.
We’re very much like food critics or chefs in a sense. We want the best of something (in this case, audio) I’m sure michelin star chefs face the same thing in their own right...can’t enoy or even eat the food unless it’s up to a certain standard.
When we audiophiles want to listen to music, we often play it on a resolving system, so as to partake in a a "high-end" listening experience. We often pick apart music and fault the audio components in our system, cables etc. All of this takes away from the experience of enjoying music as a form of art/entertainment. It has been said that some famous artists don’t even own a high-end audio system.
I gained a great deal of wisdom of from the documentary - Greek Audiophile. In it, we have audiophiles from all walks of life. Their families think they’re crazy for spending all this money on audio. They say it sounds "nice" or "real" but still can’t justify it.
I think it’s all in the brain. If we can reset our brains (or me at least) I can still enjoy music without needing a great system for it.
Luckily for me, my memories including thinking back to the 'good ol' times' are actual proof that even at the young age (say 16?) I already WAS and audiophile. By the age of 18, had become full blown. Proof: even as teenagers, we listened to - gasp - CLASSICAL music. Not because we LIKED the music (hell no), but rather because the pop music of that time (1980s) was recorded by sound engineers in appalling and disgusting fashion that made it USELESS for 'qualfied' listening. Unlike classic audio engineers, who had mastered they recording over decades.
So still (or better: again, reviving the hobby after a 30 year absence) , music is still pretty much a means to judge and enjoy the hardware.
buy yourself a pair of the better KEF or Harbeth speakers. They make music sound like music. Nothing will be spectacular, but everything will be at least very good!
@jjss49Just watched your attached video. Excellent, thanks for posting. It puts into clear focus what crops up on far too many posts. Maybe it should be made required viewing by all members. 😂
Sometimes I feel very ashamed to have spent so much on my system, or even my music collection, while people are starving and homeless. The only justification I have is that perhaps some of the music mekes me more compassionate and generous.
In the car, with the factory audio (old BMW), the music sounds great.
In the gym, with ear buds, the music pushes me a little harder. Sounds great.
At home, with huge Magnepan 20.7s, which my wife insists are too big and I have to get rid of them, I spend half my time tweaking their position or mine. I also find that some of my favorite old music (1950s and 1960s) was poorly recorded and/or too compressed. Not a problem with ear buds or in the car.
Go figure. It's always something.
On the hobby side, I enjoy all the You Tube videos for audiophiles. Better than most everything else on TV.
To sum up. It's the music and how it makes me happy.
the fallacy expressed by some, like the comment above, is that many/most experienced, dedicated folks here with money, spending fairly decent money on this pursuit are doing it stupidly, and for all the wrong reasons (bling, self aggrandisement, impress others, what have you...)
hint -- you are wrong
can’t speak for all, but for many, many here whom i know personally, who post regularly to share their experiences, learnings, observations, advice ... are sharp, invariably accomplished (and very nice) people -- who as far as i can didn’t get here by being shallow, tin-eared chumps. throwing good money in after bad...
here is a well articulated view for both side of the coin ... skip to 3:00 if you are tight on time
@grislybutter+1. I would certainly NOT recommend Audiogon as a forum for anybody young or any age just wanting to learn about fine audio for music listening purposes... much too often I see a "how much money can I spend on something to achieve an (at best) incremental improvement (if that)" rather than the other way around, namely "how can I spend money wisely to achieve rich and beautiful sound quality to listen to music?" A money-is-no-object attitude really is a disservice.
Grisly's point is well-taken, by me anyway.
I suspect much money is being spent more on "bling" and "shiny objects"... and, as my reading buddy Suze Orman says: if you need things to validate your self-esteem, then you ought to be working on your self esteem first, and not your acquisitions of objects.
@dadork my responses to you have all been removed. Seems like freedom of opinion is not a thing here when it irritates the wealthy's feeling good about themselves.
audiogon should ban poor people and just become an exclusive club for the rich.
@jjss49for your information I never said it's my business how anyone spends their money. What I said MANY TIMES was the exact opposite and that I am happy for anyone to have the wealth to buy whatever they please
@grislybutter Once again I have to ask, "How hard is it for you to wake up every morning?" Your self flagellation is laughable. There are several problems with your thinking process, the first being is it is none of your business what other people do with THEIR money.
well said, seeing that person’s posts, i have had some of same feelings that you expressed... but mostly the utter lack of a sense of humor is remarkable and regrettable
........
all this said, i suppose everything in this thread falls in the category of first class problems that most folks in the world would love to have -- if someone is here on this forum reading and posting, life can't be that bad, right?
@fertguy, Three Dog Nights' first LP wasn't released until October of 1968. Unless you may of heard them at JD's in the river bottom, live. Was it another artist? 1967 was the 'Summer Of Love'...AB
@grislybutterOnce again I have to ask, "How hard is it for you to wake up every morning?" Your self flagellation is laughable. There are several problems with your thinking process, the first being is it is none of your business what other people do with THEIR money. The problem with you and your ilk is this belief that there is a limited amount of wealth and someone having a portion of it excludes others from having it. Have you ever considered the jobs created by this hobby? From the designers and mfgs right down to the people who make the transistors, capacitors, paper cones and whatever else goes into a system are all employed and able to participate in upward mobility on their own terms. If someone's plight in Bangledesh is poor how is this your fault or mine? Most of the world's poor are poor because of bad policies adopted by their governments or this belief in a class system which keeps people in a box. Or because of ideological beliefs such as thinking there are masterminds who know what's best for us instead of ourselves. My suggestion? Sell all of your worldly belongings, go on a hunger strike and protest your self perceived injustices until you no longer exist. Leave the rest of us alone.
My audiophile experience is this- I've always enjoyed music and after I stopped blaming others for my lot in life I started changing my lot. Then I was in a position where I was able to invest in my enjoyment as I SAW FIT.
I refuse to beat myself up black-and-blue over my silly habit. I enjoy the heck out of listening to my stereo and to all the music I've collected over the decades. It's a constant source of pleasure. I don't fret over the money I've spent on it over the years. I applaud the efforts of both the artists who create the music and the engineers who create the hardware that enables me to enjoy that fine music in my home. They haven't stolen my money. They've earned it.
It’s a Life Sentence ... you feel it, I feel it, and everyone else here feels it! Best if we just except it. Only difference being, we are, our own Judges. Nice feeling :-)
@uncledemp: My guess is not what you thought 😂😂. from a long time ago in the forums when I was young and cocky. Then it stuck. Favorite track from my favorite band:
@bob540+1 ... but if you’re living healthy, eating protein and veggies, doing a little weight-bearing exercise along w some walking, you could have another 20+ years, BUT, that said, I agree it’s good to prepare.
At age 60, I have been going through the same thing, preparing my trust documents... should have done it years ago. What really threw a wrench in and slowed me down was trying to figure out how to best distribute my physical possessions; the money assets aspect was much easier to figure. What to do exactly w my nice stereo gear? Who would most "deserve" and appreciate inheriting it?
I really had a hard time with that, and it caused me a lot of anxiety... but then it gradually dawned on me: nobody I know cares about it, really. My spouse would like some of it, but would rarely use it w/o me there. Sure, they know it’s "nice," but they wouldn’t necessarily care to have it, wouldn’t want to bother w it, most likely ... they stream bluetooth to their soundbars, if that, or listen on their stupid phones.
So, that realization made it easier: directed my trust to have my durable power of finances decide what she wants, if anything, and then three others in order get to choose... and after that, it will all just be lumped together with all my other physical possessions to be sold off, the money then going to the trust through which the money will be distributed exactly like I directed for the other financial assets. (charitable remainder trust annuities for my sisters for income, no lump sums; once my sisters are gone, then the Nature Conservancy keeps the cash to buy critical habitat and preserve it -- sorry nieces and nephews, you’re on your own, so reap what you yourselves actually sow, lol)
It was actually kind of eye-opening, and a relief: nobody besides myself actually cares about my gear, really. They like it when they hear it, but they wouldn’t necessarily want it. Too much hassle for ’em, not worth the trouble. Yes, I’ve mentored a couple people along the way towards simple, quality smaller systems; I’ll settle for that torch-passing. So, "what to do w my gear once I’m gone" became easy on my mind, instead of troubling.
Over and out; time to do some reading w classical radio station playing softly through my Heresy IVs ...
So I don’t understand this audiophile stuff. To be one of these you mean I have to listen to certain things in a different way and be very critical.
I have to listen to discern how the flute sounds in relation to the trombone, and then I need to be able to figure out where these instruments are located between themselves because depth and position of an instrument are somehow very important if I am a Audiophile. Spatial placement of all the instruments is ever so important to know. I think these people with all this critical listening crap might be neurotic and really stressing themselves to death and influencing others about how they should be doing critical listening. And somehow decay is really really important and I really need to measure this? And who are all these people analyzing a room to place acoustical panels ever so properly given that most rooms we have Systems in are profoundly limited in terms of where the stuff can be placed. I love how their rooms are basically empty except for hi-fi systems and acoustical panels and that single chair scientifically measured to be placed perfectly in a room.
Who the heck puts tape on the floor to properly position speakers and really is this supposed to be a good thing to do because you can’t listen for yourself.
does anyone really know what any of this is all about?
The problem of leaving an equipment mess behind for others has been on my mind too. I've built some huge speakers that are a pain to move around. I don't know if anybody will want them after I'm gone. Will they end up in a landfill? Heck, I'm almost done with them. I'm the kind of audiophile who likes to tinker, do weird things that nobody else does to see what happens. No matter how good it sounds, I'll be interested in trying something else. I've got a new speaker project in mind, trying to resist starting on it too soon. More thinking it through, less cutting wood. It's probably going to be something nobody else in the world will ever want.
@asctim I have always known the potential of my system(s) due to not frequently changing my components just making small tweaks. Recording quality and power issues are my pet peeves. Why? Very little(if anything) can be done with these issues. I want to be in control of the sound of my system not the power company or a poor recording engineer. If something is not right I want it to be MY error not placing blame on the gear/dealers ect. With time, research and knowledge I will find a way to correct any issues. When my system is in top form and playing a well recorded disc everything is right in my "Audiophile" world.
I have come to the conclusion that I am never going to be an “audiophile” in the sense that many others on this forum are. I set a budget of “good enough . . . certainly better than anything I’ve ever had before”. I’m not going to keep auditioning or buying other equipment in search of something, Unless I decide that a new purchase is “worth it” and fits in my budget, I’m standing pat and enjoying the music.
One consideration is acknowledging that I’m 68 and only going to live so long. No matter how much pleasure I get from my equipment, usually other people don’t care about that — they have other interests and consider my stuff an ordeal to have to get rid of. They likely won’t appreciate the resale value of things like hifi equipment and will sell to the first buyer. That will be a big enough loss with my current equipment, but to think what they might accept for an amplifier or loudspeakers that cost $20,000 each — they wouldn’t even know how to go about selling such items for anything reasonable. If I had a large record collection that I invested a lot of money in, that might even be hard to sell unless they know how to go about it. I do plan to leave directions for my heirs regarding things like this, but mostly I just want to make settling my estate as easy for them as I can. They will already be stressed, and I don’t want to make it more painful for them.
You can critically listen and enjoy music simultaneously. I never knew this was an issue for some.
True. I have experienced myself becoming so critical in my listening at times that I’m impossible to please. I think I hear a problem and I become obsessed with trying to understand what I think I’m hearing and fix it asap. This can involve many hours of effort to no avail, only to find that the next day I’m happy again with the sound. If you can be critical, notice a problem, but not become obsessive about it to the point that you are no longer enjoying the music, then I think that’s a healthy perspective. Of course if there can be problems that are extreme, like loud and scary pops and crackles coming through the speakers, or smoke and bad smells coming from the amplifier. Those kinds of problems should be distracting.
On one of my better days I noticed something very off about the sound but just made a mental note of it and let the album I was listening to play through. I was in the musical magic zone and not going to interrupt it for a sound quality issue. Afterward I discovered it was a bad connection to one of the tweeters.
If chasings sound quality is getting in the way of their enjoyment of music and they're not happy about it, then I'll encourage them to at least take a break from the audiophile hobby.
It’s not an issue. It’s just someone who has decided to give up on the hobby trying to get some mental and moral support to complete the process. Simple.
They have my support. If chasings sound quality is getting in the way of their enjoyment of music and they're not happy about it, then I'll encourage them to at least take a break from the audiophile hobby. An alternative might be to take a different approach to the hobby. Don't analyze the sound directly. Just listen to music for a while and reflect on the quality of the inner experience afterward. What did it do to them? Was it a good time? Did their mind go to that special place? If not, maybe try switching some things out at random. It might not require going upscale at all. The right combination of simple components in a particular room might just work musical magic for them without requiring any specific sonic excellence. If they find something basic that works, no need to analyze. Just enjoy. If after a while they feel the urge to experiment further with sound quality even though they're having a great time, then I think they've got their mind in the right place to continue enjoying music while they pursue the audiophile goal of ever higher sound quality.
It’s not an issue. It’s just someone who has decided to give up on the hobby trying to get some mental and moral support to complete the process. Simple.
Step #1: Give up, sell everything, go “small”
Step #2: Continue to frequent audio forums every single day, declaring everything is snake oil, evil people out there to take your money. Read measurements in the internet, embrace ASR
I have seen this transformation happen over and over again during the past many years.
P.S. I would say this: make sure the gas bill is paid before you buy any audio equipment. Highly recommended
I think we need to think about finding a more flattering term. The word audiophile is not the greatest.
We are connoisseurs of music that is re-created exceptionally well to inspire Great interest while listening. I’m not sure many know what the hell audiophile means as well as many who care not to referred to as such.
This thread seems like a good place to share my recent experience listening to an inferior system than I usually do and enjoying the heck out of it. I was recently tasked with doing some quick evaluation of a Denon PMA-900 HNE stereo receiver. Just as a start I hooked it up to some Sony SSCS-5 speakers I happened to have and their matching 10" subwoofer. I wasn't feeling well this weekend - a little stomach bug and I wrenched a tooth really hard - ouch! So I spent the weekend listening to this setup, playing music, watching movies, playing games. I could hear all it's limitations immediately. The Sonys were a big step down from the Revel M16s I had been using just prior, and those were a big step down to my ears from the big full range horns I'd been playing. The Sony's are not particularly realistic in tone, not very clear or extended in the bass, not loaded with sublime micro-dynamics. A little "foggy" sounding. Not goosebumps inspiring. Despite all that I came to the surprising conclusion that I very much enjoy listening to this inferior system. How can that be? It doesn't sound as good but I enjoy listening to it so much, in some ways more! I think it's partially because it disarms me. It humbly presents the sound with it's modest capabilities and I quit analyzing it, allowing me to get out of the way of myself and enjoy the music. The other thing I suspect is it just has a good balance of faults, none of which are too extreme, that make it all come together in a much more pleasing way than I would have expected. I get the feeling that a lot of content was expected to be heard on a setup like this.
I started enjoying music and getting lost in it early in life, singing in a choir, I have played music and sung my whole life, music is how the "Light Gets In" and the magic begins. Reading these comments brings a smile to my face. Its the music that's important, and enjoying it as best we can, live is best, playing and singing, a good sound system, what we can afford it's all part of that smile.
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