First the room. I have bookshelf speakers in the living room with a sub and I love the sound it all creates (won’t go into detail about specs, not the point here). It’s beautiful and I love it. Then I have a system in the basement and the sound is completely different. The living room gives an open and spacious sound and moving the same system to the basement gives it a focused and not spacious sound. The tones and detail is good just not as grand a sound as in the LR. Secondly, the sound was horrible in the basement until I put the speakers against the long wall. My point is the same system in two rooms sounds completely different and a choosing a different wall made a monumental difference but still can’t match an open room. I’m a Vandersteen owner (basement system) and i know all about speaker positioning and optimization. There has got to be diminishing returns on a sound system when your room is limited in what it can do with the acoustics.
Hearing. I recently had a hearing test and found I had hearing loss (a couple of decibels) in the mid frequencies (low and high were fine) and that it wasn’t due to age or damage but rather something I was born with. So what I hear and what you hear is different. I’m sure most of us have variations in our frequency responses. So when someone gives their endorsement on a amp or speaker or whatever, that sounds good to them and might not sound good to you. There is something to be said for tonal adjustments and for me in the 1kHz range. The point here is you need to decide what sounds good to you and you might not like that component someone swears is the best.
I’m always amazed and the amount of money people drop on systems and maybe they don’t need to spend that much money due to limitations mentioned above.
It’s not a fun topic but you have to admit there could be a lot you can do with the room to make the sound better. But maybe there is nothing you can do and no amount of money on equipment will change that.
agree - great forum topic and one that hits home for me
1. I think everyone in this hobby appreciates how impactful room acoustics are to the listening experience. IMO, no piece of gear/equipment (regardless of price) can totally correct a bad listening environment - maybe improve what we hear in terms of "noise floor" or "speed/detail".
2. Hearing loss is bitch. And hearing aids really remove the beauty of the "sound of of the music" when I wear them. So now, I'm mainly listening "for things" like a specific instrument or a background artifact. But I prefer not to wear them so I can enjoy the tonality my system provides for frequencies I can hear rather than that washed-out amplfiied noise in my ears.
This is a good topic. I have noticed that the bulk of commenters on this forum couldn't hear a nuclear explosion from 100 yards. Much less do they have a trained ear for critical evaluation of musicality in reproduced sound.
The best audio improvement I ever made was when I went to an ENT doctor and got tested and fitted for the Phonak hearing aids. I couldn’t believe what I was missing not just in my stereo system but life in general.
I figure if you hear a live concert such as The Dead’s "wall of sound’ or any live outdoor venue using equipment by Altec, JBL and McIntosh then to hear it as you experienced it complete with the inherent coloration of transducers, boxes etc. requires the same playback equipment consisting of Altec, JBL and McIntosh.
In my experience (on these pages): it seems when one brings up another's, "hearing", or: "aural acuity"; as a variable in their perceptions, the reaction is often denial. AS IF everyone's senses don't vary in acuity, to one degree or another.
Then again: denying reality seems a trend, not only on these pages, but...
Anyway: If were truly OCD, there are more of my own posts on the subject to reference, and A LOT of other folks as well, if you type, "aural acuity" in your SEARCH DISCUSSIONS box.
The listening room is an obvious MAIN variable and: one's hearing is another. BUT: when acuity, the training of another ears, or: HOW they listen are brought up, it's taken much more personally (silliness).
Of course it does. People will always gravitate, toward those with like opinions/references/experience(not to mention: aural acuity, or- lack thereof).
Gustatory perception varies as much as aural acuity. If YOU can't taste or hear it(whatever,"it" may be), there's little doubt, it wouldn't be of value TO YOU.
How refreshing, that someone frequenting this site, actually realizes there are varying levels of aural acuity, possibly responsible for an inability/ability to hear certain things. KUDOS, Erik!
Stereo Review’s, "funniest" and biggest joke was Julian Hirsch, the stone deaf, everything-sounds-the-same, "audiophile". Of course, those of like aural acuity never could get the joke.
Apparently: the definition of, "aural acuity" even escapes some geniuses. As with EVERY sense; abilities/sensitivity levels vary, widely. ie: Some are born with perfect pitch and others, tone deaf. The first can’t be taught, or- the second, corrected. Some will wrestle with the concept. I couldn't care less!
As you have now realized, based on ACTUALLY TRYING THE UPGRADES YOURSELF, and on your own AURAL ACUITY; improvements to your power supply(whether internal to the components, or to your AC source) can yield obvious and audible benefits. KUDOS for ignoring the naysayers, pseudo-scientists and Julian Hirsch clones. HAPPY LISTENING!!
Empirical evidence(empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge or the, "a posteriori") is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation. ie: The second 50% of my last post(my personal experience/observations). Of course; accepting those conclusions would depend on one's confidence in my aural acuity, experience with sound/music and powers of observation. Happy listening!
BTW: A good way to audition cables, in your own system,
without having to buy outright, is The Cable Company's lending
library: (http://www.usedcable.com/) &
(http://thecableco.com/) Whatever you pay for an audition,
will be deducted from the price, should you decide to
purchase. Great people which which to deal, and you don't
have to depend on someone else's opinions/tastes/aural acuity.
Rleff- Once you've purchased a hi-end power cord(ie- Synergistic research AC Master Coupler, PS Audio XStream, Zu Mother- or better than those mentioned), and burned it in; you will understand the changes through which it will progress(the electrically biased ones excepted). That depends on the resolution of your system and your ability to discern the differences(system variances and aural acuity/training differences existing in so great a divergence).
YEP, "variables"! Semantics, perceptions, systems, aural acuities, references(if any), etc. Of course, the better(to me, more neutral/transparent/clean/natural/quiet/fast) ANYTHING(tubes/rectifiers/caps/cables/special copper/silver) swapped into the total system, the more obvious strengths OR weaknesses upstream will become. The natural tendency(for most) would be to attribute whatever perceived differences might be exposed, to the new component(s). "Best" will always be subjective.
It’s sad, how many fail to acknowledge the disparity of aural acuity (just like every other sense), among our species. A good man will recognize his own limitations. A wise man recognizes; not everyone shares the same limitations. How many of the naysayers have actually TRIED better cables, etc, is another topic. Then again; channelling Julian Hirsch just seems popular, in these threads. Even if one has to resurrect a seven year old thread, to accomplish the task.
"Of course, everyone's system and listening preferences (and probably bias too) will vary." You forgot aural acuity, critical listening aptitude/experience, familiarity with real instruments/vocals in a live venue and(perhaps) ear wax. There are a plethora of variables! Synergistic offers a money-back satisfaction guarantee. Any Dollar-induced bias should be subtracted from the opinion equation, as it won't cost you anything, not to like it. Then again; those with the preconceived notion that it can't possibly make any difference, already have a built-in, set in concrete, bias against such tweaks.
"........but when someone brings up a group, made of up actual audio researchers, experts, and others who are viewed by their peers as experts, that that group is suddenly of "no value"." Perhaps: expectation bias and peer pressure? Oh, wait: those guys(the Naysayer Cadre) are COMPLETELY impartial(snort of derision). Or- is it possible, that there’s been a panel, selected from a completely random pool of music lovers, that have never met or compared notes, as relates to their listening preferences/biases? And: had their aural acuity tested, prior to listening? I’d be mildly interested in the results myself, were that the case!
"Read my articles "Audiophile Law:" = "TRUST ME!" *
Many (if not most) of us are familiar the fruits of Atmasphere's aural acuity, experimentation and creativity.
What significant offerings, for the furtherance of our listening experience (ie: equipment pleasing to the ear), have you generated, outside of your opinions?
Awards won (presented by other esteemed ears)?
My own lengthy experience and gleanings from the study of certain MODERN electrical theories aside; I'm much more disposed to accept Atmasphere's viewpoint, based on actual accomplishment.
The hypothesis is (whatever the particular wire, tweak, etc); that a change (good or bad) can be heard. If one desires to apply, "science", to an agenda, regarding their listening enjoyment; experimentation is an absolute requirement. iow: One must actually TRY, whatever’s being discussed, with their own ears, in their own system. The electrical/electronic variables, as well as biases and/or aural acuity, are too myriad to calculate. As one notable Physicist, theorist and Nobel Laureate (popular, for his lectures on QED) is usually quoted, " It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong." THAT’S, "logic".
@unreceivedogma- Changes in temp and humidity, are also mentioned in some of the above studies, as affecting TS parameters. Then too; sound propagates somewhat differently, with those changes. The disparity of aural acuity, between individuals(not to mention training/experience/perception and maybe: simply denial), is why(I’m certain), some don’t/can’t/refuse to hear the changes made by fuses, cables and speaker break-in. I don’t believe EVERY system, goes through(or- can resolve) changes that ARE audible/obvious. Some, no doubt, simply want to enjoy their music and not be bothered with listening that intently. Some of us have engaged these issues professionally. So many variables!
My first reaction to, "embedment" wasn't exactly positive. Since; I've adjusted my thinking. Some simply communicate their thoughts differently. As many of us understand (sometimes, from decades of experience); what are being termed such, are prerequisites for any good music venue's viability. In a properly, "embedded" home environment; the better the associated gear, the more obvious and efficacious any tweaks should become. That's- IF, from the start, they are worth their weight in salt and compatible. I'm referring to performance, since aural acuity varies greatly. KUDOS, to those that experiment, regardless of result. Also: Some seem to miss the fact, that improvements in sound are (or- should be) cumulative. The only limit is one's own satisfaction (far as I can tell, anyway).
It's important to note that there are many variables that will determine, or limit, a listener's ability to discern improvements/changes in presentation. ie: A system(source/pre/speakers/cables) that does not present or pass the info on the recording, poor recordings, room acoustics, aural acuity(actually; the lack there-of), the untrained ear, and the ubiquitous mental block(a refusal to hear what is obvious to others, because it doesn't agree with your mindset). Don't let the opinion of another stop you from experimenting with your own system. There are numerous simple/inexpensive mods and tube upgrades for the ST-70, that will yield much musical pleasure, if you ignore the naysayers(again- providing the rest of your system, and your ears, support them). Besides- It's just fun to experiment! Happy listening, all.
There are way too many variables, when it comes to systems and cables (regardless of description/placement), for anyone to make categorical propositions as to how much or whether your sound/presentation will benefit from their replacement.
Then: there are the aural acuity disparities that exist between people (as with any of our other senses), which many choose to deny.
It's been my experience, the better the equipment, room acoustics, component's power supply and everything else involved; the more obvious an upgrade in house wiring, cables or interconnects will appear.
The only way to tell whether any (or what) upgrades in your system's wires will prove beneficial, within your own budget constraints, is to try it yourself, in your room, with your ears.
I built my system in our living room. We have hardwood floors throughout the first floor and a large 10 x 13 Persian rug. I think we have the right balance between hardwood floors and Persian rug. I think the hardwood floors help to brighten up the sound and improve my sound stage. The real game changer was when I added two REL SHO's. Suddenly the soundstage presented itself. It is critical to make sure you blend the subwoofers with the towers to play more like woofers.
Long ago I sold a decent system to a gent who lived in a Brownstone on Commonwealth Ave in Boston’s Back Bay. It was a spacious room with high coffered ceilings, a huge oriental carpet, was lined with walnut woodwork, well filled bookcases, overstuffed chairs, a baby grand piano… you get the picture. The system was a pair of KEF 104/2s and an NAD 7155 integrated receiver and matching CD player. The wiring was 16ga. zip cord, like from the hardware store. Patch cord was what came with the player. He was into opera. When I finished hooking it up the first disc he chose was a Georg Solti London set of something by Wagner with I think Nilsson singing soprano. I had heard these speakers in the store extensively and owned a pair myself but nothing prepared me for how amazing they sounded with no break in in this room. Completely convincing sound stage, tonally uncolored, seemingly unlimited dynamics.
so yeah, I guess the room matters…a lot.
From the OP, "There has got to be diminishing returns on a sound system when your room is limited in what it can do with the acoustics."
Indeed, but we all try to do the best we can with those limitations. Many of us can’t put speakers where they SHOULD be, so we compromise. Or we try adding some discrete room treatment - if they meet the WAF. In reality, unless someone has a dedicated listening room, most cannot put in the honking bass traps that would be necessary.
All the more reason to use good headphones sometimes. I tell my friends that you can get $10K speaker performance from a $2K (or less!) headphone - as long as you are willing to forgo the gut hitting punch of a good sub or woofer.
Regarding hearing loss. Well, we will all deal with that sooner or later. (and some unfortunate ones will get tinnitus, constantly hearing a sine wave around 8,000 Hz). High frequencies start to roll off for many in their 30s and 40s. The lucky ones delay that to their 50s.
I had a hearing test done by an audiologist and mine rolls off at 13KHz now (I’m 63 and tried to protect my hearing over the years - at least after I was 30 and not so young and foolish). But that doesn’t mean I want my SPEAKERS to roll off there. I still want them to be the best they can be at their price point, even if I can’t hear it.
I have two systems, the first is in a bad room with some treatments and the second is in an okay room with just a little conditioning. The speakers are different, the amps are different the preamps are different, most of the wires are different, the sources are different, so of course they will sound different.
And as for my hearing? I can hear just fine as far as volume, but I’m sat to say, I can’t hear much above 11k.
In total agreement about the room, even the slightest correction with treatments makes a major improvement as does figuring out how your speakers respond to placement, toe in, etc..
I personally found by switching from bookshelves, (Triangle Comete’ EZ’s), to dipoles (Maggi .7’s), I was able to enjoy music again. I went back to listening rather than hearing what the speakers were and were not doing.
As we age and after years of exposure to loud sounds weather we produced them or were from some external source, adjustments in our listening must be made to accommodate our hearing and the rooms we grow into to get us back to how we think things used to sound or should sound.
One thing to I need to keep in mind as I go crazy chasing how I remember things sounded, is back in the day I heard music, today I critically listen and my current speaker choice, room correction and the advice I often get from fellow posters here on Audiogon has allowed me to continue enjoying this hobby as long as I don’t look at my credit card bills… LOL
As for Hearing & Listening…
Not to change the subject but… How many times has the wife come in at the part of the song you’ve waited for and starts talking and thinks you hear what’s saying, then says you’re deaf for not responding? … LOL Didn’t hear my wife because I was listening to the music….
@doogabayne Don't worry about your couple of dB loss in the mid. Your speakers can't reproduce that flat.
But the worst is the big hearing loss that can come with old age. The best hearing aids in the world are a very poor substitute for your own good hearing. My late father had bad loss in both ears as a very old man. He loved music and had a good if vintage system. He bought the best aids available but said that music no longer moved him. He didn't listen at all in the last decade of his life, moving mainly to BBC Radio 4, the best talk radio in the world.
Dealing with one's listening environ will likely be the most difficult challenge one will face, since the answer will either ask for a new purpose-built one or treatments that one's significant other will hate in most cases....
Dealing with your ears will require aids or headphones dialed into your personal response curve.
Your grey matter and how it responds will need a 'sea change' or a hammer.
Spot on observation! I think those guys at Audio Science Review ignore the fact that we all hear different as our our rooms different, so with these many varying permutations and combinations science plays only a small roll in what we hear!
Rooms are frequently discussed on audio forums I assume this one is no different, but no one ever accused philes of being good listeners.
Big room, reflections farther from the side, feels spacious. Small rooms, reflections arriving close enough to main sound, more focused. If you want spacious, put a 2nd pair of speakers closer but along the wall (wider angle to you) and feed them a delayed version of the main signal (get rid of the bass). If that is starting to sound like one of those spatial modes on your home theater AVR, it is. It is fake, but so is your spacious setup. If that is your enjoyment, then make the most of it.
The first rule of phile club is no one talks about wasted money. Of course most of the money spent is a waste due to limitations mentioned. You are not supposed to say it out loud, no more than you are supposed to say a lot of the money is spent on very expensive single function equalizers. They often come packaged looking just like other pieces of audio equipment.
Rooms are important and frequently discussed here. I lucked out and my audio room is amazingly good (see my userID). I was really lucky more so than good. We can probably lend a hand helping you tweak your systems if you show your systems under your ID.
Virtually all of us have very compromised hearing in comparison to our spouses. Women have much better hearing. I always bring my partner along when auditioning components. She can’t describe a single aspect of sound quality like I can… but can hear much better. She hates anything brittle, digital, noisy, or with high frequency distortion.
Anyway, most of us have some hearing impairment of some kind. But unless it is very substantial, it just doesn’t mater. A better system sounds like a much better system. Sounds like your hearing is outstanding… from an overall perspective. Forget about it. Enjoy the music, choose components that sound good to you.
You hear what you hear. It doesn't matter what everyone else hears or doesn't hear. If you have hearing issues, you'll need to have that corrected (or not), you don't change your system to correct your hearing issues. What you hear out in the real world should be what you hear at home.
Blimey. For the past five years or so I’d say the one thing which comes up mote than anything else is “the room”. A whole industry growing up around room correction; measurement; DSP and so on.
Hearing gets mentioned in passing but often dismissed. It really shouldn’t be.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
