surprised no one has mentioned the DeHavilland Ultraverve 3.
uses one 6sn7 so tube rolling is a dream.
uses one 6sn7 so tube rolling is a dream.
Tube Preamps.....
I am running 2 GFA 565 Musical Comcepts modded Amps with Vandersteen 2ce v2. I am looking for a good quality tube preamp. With or without a built in dac. Should I stick with shopping for a used Mac? Or should I look at others also. Suggestions? Like to keep it under $3000. Could stretch to 3500. Thanks for your input.
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@judgementday, I sold my AI MB3 when I found that my MZ2 was a superior sounding preamp even though it doesn’t have as much functionality. The one outstanding thing about the AI MB3 was the incredible John Curl phono stage. My solution was the buy a Parasound JC3+ for phono and use the MZ2 as a line stage. |
For the adcom amp recommend Rogue Audio Perseus magnum built in phono as well, used for around 1400.00 usd you could roll the tubes all 4 are 12au7 , so no mix and matching headaches, but the jj tubes that it come with sound amazing as well.I dont do dacs , just a palystation 1 for cd duties that to my ears trounce my marantz cd 6005 cd player, and you can get one of the p.s. for 40-50 bucks! Must be the scph-1001 version as it has the rca output jacks! Save your money for more music... |
I personally don't get the LISST tube thing for the Freya as there are already 2 non tube stages built into the thing, although higher gain or fear of tubes may be the reason…in any case I've settled on NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" in the first tube stage with the new Tung Sols in the second position…I'm not certain that the Freya "kills" CJ or Audio Research preamps as I don't have those to compare it with, but if it does it makes me feel like a real smart audio component chooser, which is good, and owners of any other preamps shouldn't feel bad…maybe you simply didn't know… I may get the Audible Illusions M3B or the L3A line stage, but I want to try the Freya first. One can buy the Freya for $699 and buy better tubes later. They are like $20 a piece, not big deal. |
I personally don’t get the LISST tube thing for the Freya as there are already 2 non tube stages built into it, although higher gain or fear of tubes may be the reason…in any case I’ve settled on NOS Sylvania "chrome domes" in the first tube stage with the new Tung Sols in the second position…I’m not certain that the Freya "kills" CJ or Audio Research preamps as I don’t have those to compare it with, but if it does it makes me feel like a real smart audio component chooser, which is good, and owners of any other preamps shouldn’t feel bad…maybe you simply didn’t know… |
@sciencecop - If the preamp's output impedance is too high for the amp you risk rolloff at the frequency extremes. This does need to be considered. The LTA MZ2's output impedance is 2 ohms, unheard of for a tube preamp and another benefit of its design. This is basically SS territory. It will work with any amp. |
@meiatflask - There is something special about the ZOTL design from David Berning that provides amazing clarity and 3D soundstage. I was using my Cary at the time when a friend brought over his MZ2. The difference was immediate, like replacing new glass in place of a piece that needed cleaning. I placed an order the next day and sold my Cary. I'm still using 2 of the NOS JAN Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes I had in the Cary for the MZ2. The Cary's NOS Telefunfen 12AX7s went into my LTA amp. I could have deployed the Cary's 12AU7s also in the MZ2, but it can use 12AT7s as an option, which I prefer. The 12AT7 provides a bit more gain and a more forward presentation depending on the brand. Again, the MZ2 is a tube rolling funhouse. The stock tubes that LTA provides sound pretty good. I know that LTA has also just announced a new/improved preamp for those wanting an even more refined sound, more inputs, a better volume control, and a more polished look. Its price is more in line with Cary/CJ For me, I still like the MZ2. At its cost, I can't see how it can be beat, even when configuring with upgrades. Like the new model, the MZ2 is also a premium headphone amp, its originally designed intent. |
The MZ2 adds nothing detrimental to the sound except dynamics and added soundstage size. It is a clear conduit otherwise. I agree that it’s the best preamp I’ve owned, much better than my AI Modulus. I am testing the new Micro ZOTL Preamp now and it’s more of he same but better. To me the MZ2 is the best bang for the buck. |
Try to figure out what you want - lean, warm or lush? +1 CJ is very good value not so good on resale if it doesn’t work for you. Mcintosh is a great classic sounding choice with good resale but higher priced because highly desirable - warm but not lush. VAC are lush but pricey. As Wolf mentioned, once you get a tube preamp then tube rolling can become an endless pursuit too... |
shrapnel, if that's what the tech at CJ told you then it must be true. But I will add that I have owned the ET2, Classic and CT6 preamps (amongst other CJ models) and I will tell you for a fact that the design, parts and layout for these three preamps are completely different, as is the sound signature. YMMV |
@br3098 I am telling what the technician at CJ (Jeff, I believe) told me. I talked about sending my line stage classic 2 SE to get phono stage put in. I was asking him if I should just upgrade to the 3 and he said "why? its the same circuit with a remote control added to it" He asked me to stick with the classic and just get a phono stage to go with it unless I wanted the remote. He also said the phono stage they add to the 3 and 2 is the TEA2 circuit. |
I would concur with recomondarions on preamps based with 6SN7 tubes. There is something special about this tube type, and there is (relatively speaking) a great selection of old tubes that you can roll with terrific sonic changes. Something SS will never do.The 6SN7 is more linear tube than its miniature counterpart the 12AU7 (although the 6CG7 and 12BH7 are nearly the same tube in the taller miniature format) and has less microphonics than the 6DJ8 and its brethren, which includes the 6H30. It is one of the best tubes you can use in a line stage. |
@parsons, That is high praise and I completely agree. The MZ2 can compete with preamps at 10x the cost. I am now very curious about the new Micro ZOTL Preamp that was just shown at Axpona for the first time. Unlike the MZ2 which is a Swiss Army knife product, the new pre is a dedicated preamp and Mark says it’s better than the MZ2. |
Hi, reading the string with interest. I had a CJ 12AL (12au7 tubes) pre for several years which was a warm/lush preamp for sure. A beautiful sounding piece. I replaced it with a Odyssey Candela preamp to mate with my Odyssey Stratos. It leans to warm aide of neutral and responds greatly to nos tuberolling. I default back to bugle boys. I assume it falls well within your $3K limit but a call to Klaus could answer any questions that you may have. Take care. |
shrapnel: the CJ ET3 and Classic 2 preamps are completely different designs, with no relation other than they were both designed and produced by CJ. The ET3 is based on technology used for the GAT preamp while the Classic 2 is essentially an update of the PV-10BL preamp. Both are great amps but were designed for different user expectations and different price points. patores: personally, I would take the advise of the others who have advised you to skip the preamp/DAC combination. To paraphrase Peter, Paul and Mary "Preamps live forever but no so little DACs..." |
I haven’t heard the Don Sachs but it looks nice plus he’ll work with you on upgrades to my understanding, a big plus. I have lived with a 6SN7 based output tube preamp up to a few years ago, still have it but it doesn’t hold a candle to my Bill Thalmann upgraded Vintage CJ PV9a in any parameter of performance. The Classic 2 SE with the teflon caps used, no longer available new is killer for the money and beyond but no remote, definitely worthy of consideration. |
Another note on the Freya...it's much less expensive than many of the preamps noted here (about half the cost of the least expensive others noted), has more inputs both single ended and balanced with balanced outputs, and it has the cool 3 way passive/FET/tube operating options which can be changed with the remote from the beer soaked couch you got from your mom (or in my case, the throne I use since I'm Lithuanian royalty). I also found that the Freya really comes into its own with great tubes. I really think if the Freya cost 2 grand it would garner more respect immediately, and if more people said great things about them I'd feel better and less defensive about using one. |
+1 LTA MZ2. I love mine. It now comes with three inputs or you can opt for a second set of outputs. LTA's build team is flexible. It is so much more transparent and 3D sound producing than my prior Cary tube preamp (also 6SN7 based), which I liked a lot until a friend brought over his MZ2. No contest. Ordered the next day. Quickly sold the Cary and I only miss the pretty red chassis it had. |
@doni - I had a brief listen to the LTA MZ2, and was very impressed. With the remote, separate power supply etc, it is still only $2300. Line stage only, and only two inputs if I recall. I am curious how it would stack up against a used conrad johnson or ARC, which could be had in the 3k range. @chuckjonez - Don't the more recent CJ's have remotes, too? I have kicked around used CJs, but it has been decades since I listened to one. Are there any specific models in the OP's price range that would be at the top of your list? |
I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Linear Tube Audio MZ2, a very fine little 6SN7 based preamp with separate linear power supply. I got a Freya, and was quite happy with it, until I tried the LTA, and have not gone back (Freya for sale). And that is before doing any tube rolling, which I look forward to. BTW, well below your budget. Don ivey |
For the best transparency without missing the best tube qualities (that are not always here when we have a tube item in hands): deep soundstage, harmonic developpement without dry signs, I would suggest the Coincident Statement Linestage. I have one and could compare it directly to AR ref5se and my ex Rogue Hera 2, the Coincident is without doubt better than these two pretenders, better transparency and fluidity. For a really good quality/price ratio, and if you don’t use usb input for your front digital audio gear (as the usb input is not up to date), you can find a second hand Ayon Skylla2 dac that is a dac with two 6h30 tubes per channel as output stage, tube retified, with three different gain ratio and volume control, so it’s a real dac with tube preamp inside. Beautiful association with solid state power amps that would be a bit too much on the solid state side of sound: excellent with Accuphase, too gentle for Passlabs. |
I would concur with recomondarions on preamps based with 6SN7 tubes. There is something special about this tube type, and there is (relatively speaking) a great selection of old tubes that you can roll with terrific sonic changes. Something SS will never do. By all accounts the Don Sachs is a great one. I’ve have a Modright ls100, a Supratek. , and a Wyetech in my system. For my system synergy the Wyetech was the winner. YMMV. Buying new with return / home trial is prudent. So is buying used at a fare price as you should be able to resell and not loose much. Good luck with your search! |
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I second the Denafrips DAC. For preamps, I’ve had a half dozen or so, but a few years ago bought a demo Rogue Metis Magnum for only $1100 (didn’t even listen to the stock tubes initially) and being new to tube preamps paired w solid state amps, over a year and a half stretch of obsession, rolled about $4k worth of 6SN7 and VT99 tubes (w adapters). I ultimately declared a clear winner.. and that was the NOS (or even used) VT-99 Tung Sol’s (also black glass like their 6SN7 brothers). In the VT-99, flat plate or round plate.. both are suprisingly similar, they were dramatically quieter, higher bandwidth, and therefore more revealing than anything else. Raytheon’s and Sylvania grey glass (from Argentina) were also excellent but a step back from TS VT99. Even Tung Sol’s crazy expensive much heralded round plate 6SN7 didn’t come close.. too noisy and twice and expensive. On a lark one day, i put in the original tubes (still low hrs) and they were unlistenable, relatively speaking. I’m not sure how the preamp garnered such rave reviews with them, but perhaps i’d just been spoiled . I believe the Metis loves great NOS VT-99’s w adapters because it separates the main power lead from the interior of the Tube, which is important in a lower tier preamp such as the Metis. Expensive tube preamps are probably less sensitive to rolling, but this one needs the separated lead to operate quietly. Here, It is a very dynamic, transparent preamp which injects the perfect amount of 2nd harmonic distortion into my solid state equipment chain. So you’re looking at maybe $1200-1400 (w NOS tubes and adapters) for a giant killer. |
Note that the only serious issue with a Freya is the fact that you could become obsessed with 6SN7 tube types…my SE power amp also has one of these (a NOS Amperex), so I seem to now have a tube collecting problem with the Freya original 6N8S tubes (which are possibly all you need), Sylvania "chrome domes," more NOS Amperex when I can find them, new version Tung Sols (not too shabby really), and more coming from stashes of NOS RCAs and on it goes. You've been warned. |
Another vote for the Freya. At least give it a try. For $700 bucks with a 15 day return less 5% restocking fee (and shipping) you will risk little. It’s a very flexible, balanced design with (tiny) remote, several output modes (one of which is 6SN7 tube-based) and numerous inputs. Also has a very very good volume control and 5 year warranty. I know...it doesn't cost enough so it must be junk. Why not let your ears decide? You could do Freya + Gungnir MB or even the Yggdrasil DAC at your (stretch) budget. Lots more info over on HeadFi (Freya impressions and tube rolling thread). Good luck. http://www.schiit.com/products/freya https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-freya-impressions-and-tube-rolling-thread.832177/ |
+1 @whitestix on the Sachs pre. He also offers a short in-home trial, which is a real plus, and the fact that this would be new rather than used is also kinda nice. At your price you could do lots of Don's upgrades to create a really nice pre. On the used side, there's a nice Backert Rhumba 1.2 listed at $2400. But if you can stretch your budget just a bit there's an Allnic L3000 mkii reduced to $3700 that looks like a great buy as its listed retail is $13,000 (there are nice reviews of the original model from Audio Beat and Dagogo comparing it to other nice preamps). I have to say if I'm you I'd have a tough time passing this one up as it seems like a truly top-level and potentially end-game component -- if there is such a thing. Best of luck. |
