Tube Integrated vs Tube Seperates

Separates will be quieter and better in most cases.

I used Tubes for 50 years . There are no really  good ones made or used ,

2 small d's are it ,

Usually separates win by far, unless you choose set tube amp.

Budget is the key point before any suggestion.

Budget is 3-5k. Like I said though I’m fairly set on Primaluna. 

LM 508ia is way better in your price range.

as tube 805 is on very high level of the tube world and they provide 48w X2 power,which can meet a lot of speaker.

Separates is going to in most cases get you better power supplies optimized for the job at hand. I would MUCH rather have monoblock amplifiers located within 12”-24” of the speakers and an XLR balanced connection to the preamp. Depending on length of run and RF environment, you might be ok single ended RCA. You could get very close to this with Quicksilver amps and a pre at top end of your budget. What speakers are you running, how big is the room, how loud do you listen ?

Jim

I have had integrated dual mono amps that never sounded as good as my primaluna pre and amp.  I am getting another evo400 to run both in mono.  You will find separates to your liking.

PrimaLuna fine at your budget level. Separates better but you'd have to stretch budget. Actually, I'd rather have the PL integrated with it's active pre vs some of the other tube amps with passive pre's.

I prefer the simplicity and sound of a high quality integrated tube amplifiers like the Audio Hungary Qualiton Series. But they are above your budget even used.

My X200 smokes every PL, AR and Mac separate I have ever owned. 

I had a PL Dialogue Premium integrated, then the preamp and amp separately, and yes the separates were much better - a lot more clarity and detail.  I now have 2 Evo 300 monos that I use a Benchmark LA4 (solid state) preamp with, running Harbeth M30.2 and second Runwell’s comments above regarding Line Magnetic.  If you can audition, depending on what speakers you have, the LM is awesome (I have the 845ia) which is only 22 w/ch.  For classical and jazz I enjoy this integrated more than any of the above.  And it does not have less clarity than the very neutral and detailed LA4 running the PL monos, which to me was amazing.   The PL are very nice though also and you can’t go wrong with them.  The LM is just more realistic sounding and musical, to my ears.  Actually has more ‘snap’ and punch than the PL.

I had a long response but it went poof. So I’ll make this short and sweet. For your budget, buy the best new PL integrated you can afford. However without knowing what loudspeaker you will be driving, my final answer is TBD.

Sorry, but I think you’d be misguided to ignore the Line Magnetic suggestion.  And I’ll add the Octave V40 SE, which I think will also stomp it in terms of imaging and holography.  Pretty sure I saw a review where Octave stomped PL, but I’m not gonna search for it and I could be wrong.  Im not saying the PrimaLuna is bad at all — they’re excellent.  But, for what you’re looking for in terms of imaging holography, I think both LM and Octave would be superior.  But, that’s up to you.  FWIW, and Best of luck. . 

I used Tubes for 50 years . There are no really  good ones made or used ,

2 small d's are it ,

Would anyone like to translate this into English?

Are you familiar with Raven Audio tube amplifiers?

I'll let myself out...😆

Speakers are Harbeth C7es3 xd. Room is 12x24 open on the back left half. I listen typically in the 80db range but at times peaks are well into the 90db range. 

octave is a company m don’t know much about, but I appreciate their look, and they seem well built. I will read up on them a bit more 

Line Magnetic I find fascinating but I worry they aren’t a great amp to run for as many hours as I’d be using them. I could be wrong though. 

I used Tubes for 50 years . There are no really  good ones made or used ,

2 small d's are it ,

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

He used tubes for 50 years then swapped to small class d amps, that's a silver with gold trim and really big FEET. It also says English is not his native language and actually he is a she.. She has a dog named Spot.

There you go a complete translation. :-)

Regards

BTW, I use everything.. I don't give a crap. I can make anything work.

Maybe a good compromise is some type of hybrid?

I think you are very close to making the wrong choice.

Prima Luna goes out the front door and Cayin goes out 

the back. Same Chinese factory or so I have read.

If you plan high usage then a US based service option

will be important. ARC I-50, $5k new. Made in MN.

Rogue Audio-made back east for even less.

If I was going overseas to save money, the LM

line has great SQ.  The Wilsenton ?? $2,500

has great reviews too.

The Harbeth like power and current. Do some more

homework before you buy. 

Always go separates if you can swing the purchase. That gives you flexibility down the road to switch to solid state on either pre-amp or amp if you want to change something up. I heard a Primaluna EVO 300 a year ago when looking to upgrade. Really nice integrated amp. Great soundstage and clarity. I ultimately went with full tube separates and a different manufacturer, but the Primaluna stuff was the runner up for me.

@ozzy62

Would anyone like to translate this into English?

Yeah… this:

 

I used Tubes for 50 years . There are no really good ones made or used ,

2 small d’s are it ,

Means:

Run 2x class-D monoblocks.

I have PL amp, and a different tube pre. So I kinda agree that a Tube Pre and come class-D Purifi or similar could be a sensible approach.

(Or sensible to me)

“D”s should never be small… and double-Ds should be move the cones around.

@brylandgoodman you had commented that "Line Magnetic I find fascinating but I worry they aren’t a great amp to run for as many hours as I’d be using them. I could be wrong though."

I've had some interest in Line Magnetic for a while, but never had the impression that there would be an issue with how many hours you could put on them. Was your impression in reference to how long the tubes would last or the actual amp failing after extended usage? 

I was in your situation (same budget) and went with the PL EVO 300 and for the money, I personally think it’s a great value. Upgraded to KT-88s and NOS preamp tubes and it never looked back. 
Will I go to separates one day? Probably, but that leaves me something to look forward to. For now, a good integrated is better than average separates. 
 

For those who bash the made in China and potential service issues, I’m not sure where the logic is to that argument. These are well designed and well assembled and not sure why a non-Chinese worker would do such a superior job! And I have found Upscale Audio to be excellent with their service. 

The 'idea' of separates makes sense, except when it comes to well made integrated from high quality makers which surround us these many years.

IMO you can give up a lot: convenience of unified features, reduced cost, size/weight/heat/placement issues for an 'idea' that will yield no actual perceptible difference if it is a high quality maker.

Power supplies: everything comes from separate circuit first to my Furman's capacitors, then to unit's capacitors. Everything goes thru the tiny wire in the tiny fuse, so thin hard to see. Meters typically show .01 w all the way up to a few watts most of the time, an occasional needed spurt from ...

I just bought a nice (get ready for the formerly dreaded word) Receiver, a Yamaha CR-1040, what a beauty, beautifully made, not tubes but sounds terrific, what convenience for that system! 

Did you ask Prima what difference they think you will actually perceive?

btw, I LOVE my Cayin Tube Integrated, and if Prima quality is as good as Cayin, that's hard to do, they are wonderfully made and sounding (your tube type preference gets involved of course).

I've moved between integrated and separates a number of times throughout my 30+ years in this wonderful hobby.  At your price point there are many excellent options.  I owned a PrimaLuna HP and rolled power tubes up to KT 150.  I really enjoyed the sound quality until I committed to streaming at which time I wanted to play with preamps.  Anyway today I own separates and would suggest you strongly consider the same if for no other reason the flexibility they offer.  Just my 2 cents.

Might check Quicksilver ... get's good reviews here:

Thanks for all the input. I’m leaning towards seperates right now. I do like that it gives me more flexibility. My main concern going tubes is power. I’ve used high power solid state for a long time. If I go seperates I can easily keep the preamp and move back to solid state for the power if I think that’s needed. I do have a little concern over 30-40 watts being enough, but I think I’m going to give it a shot and see how it works out. The hp Primaluna is really only a 3db difference. When I look at it from that perspective doubling the tubes for 3db doesn’t make much sense to me.
Regarding Line Magnetic my main concern is heat. At least with there set amps that get most the rave reviews. I’ve read they put out some crazy heat, and I just don’t think that makes sense for hours of daily use.  If someone could convince me I’m wrong I’d love to try one out. 

Quicksilver does get some great reviews. My issue is more cosmetic with them. I really prefer all of the connections to be on one side, and that side should be the back. Just can’t get on board with there looks, and cables coming out both sides before they get routed behind my rack. 

You're overthinking your curiosity about trying tubes

All the mag/user reviews established the brand for a 18 years now as a go to for tube curious.

There are a few good PL listings to check out. Escospecially the Dialogue monoblocks.

Happy user since 2010. Sure there are nearly endless choices with another brand having "X" feature, but PL will likely match it with  overall value for what you get. Build quality is second to none.

There is always something "better" with ALL audio gear, so get that out of your decision process.

Forget about SET if worried 30-40 WPC not being enough. Heat will be of some concern, usually more heat with more power. I'd stick to push pull amps, fairly low power. Still like your PL inclinations as you can switch out a variety of power tubes with minimal fuss.

I owned my PL Dialogue Four (self modded with latest PL models Takman resistors and a few other extra mods) at same time as many multiples of price SET amps, I didn't feel deprived with PL. Don't let naysayers of PL throw you off. Not saying there's not other good choices, I've also owned Cary and Conrad Johnson push pulls, its just in same price range your comparing apples to apples.

Quicksilver does get some great reviews. My issue is more cosmetic with them. I really prefer all of the connections to be on one side, and that side should be the back

      Aren't they on the back of the amp?

Aren't they on the back of the amp?

On some of the mono blocks the power is on one end and the input/outputs are on the other end.  I put the power plug in the front and loop the power cord under the amp, looks pretty clean.  

I’m leaning towards seperates right now.

I just don’t think that makes sense for hours of daily use. 

I'm going to change my mind about an integrated and suggest a tube preamp and a solid state amp. If you are burning lots of hours you'll be changing power tubes often. The tubes in a tube pre-amp last a long time. That will get you everything you want. 

If you are burning lots of hours you'll be changing power tubes often. The tubes in a tube pre-amp last a long time.

russ raises an excellent point

My Primaluna Evo 400 power amp is so reliable and well made that it is a little bit boring. I sometimes wish I had gotten something I could manually bias every now and then. I’m being totally serious. I made my decision based entirely on the first time fear of tubes and favorable user feedback.

If anything, the Primaluna’s preamp weak point is the Alps volume knob. It’s actually a good part but you want something better at that price point. A high quality stepped attenuator would have been better.

I feed my Evo 400 amp via a Don Sachs preamp. This is a good setup up for sure.

If you’re going all Primaluna then go separates.

What’s truly great about starting with this brand is that you can try just about any tube you want and that’s a huge advantage.

The Evo line is a level step higher than the Dialogue Premium line. I have demo’d both.

Knowing what I know now, I would have gotten a Line Magnetic or a Luxman class A integrated.

Primaluna is something I should have tried much earlier in my journey.

Also, I got Primaluna because I thought I would eventually trade up to a better amp as my knowledge and comfort level of tube gear grows and that the tube rolling would have helped expedite this process.

Unfortunately, in a way, the ownership experience has been so good that I’ve become torn about upgrading. The power tubes are now 7581As and this sounds great. More efficient Tannoy speakers were also a great match...so this isn’t helping either, lol. I’m staying a bit too long with the Primaluna and may paradoxically just end up not trading up. All good problems to have I suppose.

@sandthemall

My Primaluna Evo 400 power amp is so reliable and well made that it is a little bit boring. I sometimes wish I had gotten something I could manually bias every now and then. I’m being totally serious. I made my decision based entirely on the first time fear of tubes and favorable user feedback.

well you should go for a mid 90s to 2010 vintage audio research tube amp

you will experience the excitement of tube biasing with multi meters, probes and j clips in tight quarters 😂

.... and of course, wonderful wonderful sound too!

sandthemall

If an amp designer/tweaker messed around enough with the PL's auto bias setup, there likely is a work around to bump up the bias- like an auto tuner fiddling with a motor.

Otherwise, those of us who are content with PL gear  may know the rest of the puzzle-speaker/source and room are equally important.

Think I am going to pick up a Primaluna Dialogue preamp and power amp. The seller has a set of kt150s as well as el34s, and kt88s. I’m going to buy at least the el34s and kt150s. He is also local so he said I could bring my speakers and make sure the amp can drive them sufficiently. That I’m super grateful for. Pretty excited to hear my first full tube setup.  Hopefully it’s all that I’m hoping it will be. 

Different brand tube amplifier make the sound huge differently.

Hello,

How about the PL preamp with some Kinki Sudio mono blocks. The KS are $3500 for the pair. You get tube sound with great power and all separate. Short speaker runs are better. 
rogue has some great stuff like the RH-5 preamp and maybe a DragoN amp. Again, best of all worlds because the amp is a hybrid tech and you can run all this on XLR interconnects. Nice option for a decent phono stage built in if you need one. 

@ebm  

"Separates will be quieter and better in most cases." and why would that be the case? less interconnects with intergated hardware, less circuit less everything....

@canibefrank  The most weakness of the integragted amplifier is that the pre and power inside used the some electric source, and then splite energy inside,so the  pre affect the power, and power affect the pre, which suppose to be independent.

Pre has very important job to do and the job is quite different from amplifier. 

The name pre is not suitable at all, it is called  magnifier. so the siginal from the CD or streamer should first go magnify and then amplify and then go to speaker.

That is the procedure, but in  integrated, they merge the step 1 and step 2 into one step. That is the reason.

The preamp section of tube integrated amps is usually pretty weak - like a 12au7 or 2, ugh. The volume control quality is also crucial, and often compromised here compared to what you’d get in a standalone pre.

In some ways it seems like a good idea - eliminate an interconnect w/ contact connections, and the preamp stage can be designed exactly for a known load. But the reality is it takes away real estate and budget from making the power section as great as it could be. A high end integrated could be done better with a larger budget but that’s not usually the target market, and so integrated amps usually file in towards a line’s entry level offerings, compromises and all.

Try a tube preamp like a Reference 6 and see what the fuss is all about for having a dedicated tube preamp with lots of tubes, real estate, and engineering to get this stage right.

Then there will always be an argument from the passive pre guys, saying you don’t need the gain from an active stage and it's all unnecessary coloration. Or that you only need a few dB at most from a very simple circuit, buffer, or transformer. I dunno - maybe that’s ok for a digitally sourced system. I only run vinyl and I need the extra gain available, and love what a good dedicated active pre does sonically.

@sandthemall   +1

            " Knowing what I know now,I would have gotten a Line Magnetic or a Luxman Class A integrated.

            "Primaluna is something I should have tried much earlier in my journey"

Very good words! You talk about the true story! The tube world is  very large,and Luxman Class A,even it is SS,can win a lot of tube amplifier. BUT some  people do not aware of.

You can in fact manual bias some PL https://www.primaluna-usa.com/autobias-adjustment

I went to the dealer to listen to the Luxman 595 with Harbeth and walked out with a LM 845ia…which I had not planned to audition or even consider.  And yes, they do run a bit hot.  You’d be surprised how far 20 watts goes.  I generally listen lower though in the 80s at the most and don’t listen to rock.  I agree with all the comments about integrateds being compromised in the volume control, etc.  That’s why I mentioned in my previous post that I was amazed that I felt no lack in the clarity of the LM.  When I owned the PL integrated it was compromised IME in that way in comparison to the PL separates.  

In general I think a combination of a tube preamp and solid-state amplifiers are a great combination. You can get the warmth of the tubes with the power of the solid state and not have to worry about the tube lifespan.

Most of my tube experience is with Jadis and McIntosh--a little with Audio Research.  Others, just a hear now and again.  Of those, I've only heard integrated with Mac.  Separates always sounded a lot better than integrated when I could compare.