Ralph,
That's an fascinating suggestion but it's way too much trouble to reinstall my trough to test.
I'm going to work up some theoretical objections to justify not trying it. ;-)
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08-30-10: Dougdeacon
Dan,
Thank you for asking, I appreciate it. You'll find the answer in my last post, dated 08/27/10. I haven't posted since as it would be fatuous to contribute to a discussion after explicitly asking that it stop.
I've got to say that it seems a bit presumptuous for you to act as though you have personal ownership of this discussion. If you don't wish to comment, then you are free to independently decide to not comment. Anyone else can similarly make their own decisions (of course this is a moderated discussion, so the moderator has something to say about this as well). Nobody is right all the time and nobody has all the answers, and that goes for everyone and for you as well. Here, an issue got raised that you couldn't address; take this as an "emperor's new clothes" moment because while some people will accept your conclusions on some topic just because you expressed it, some people will challenge you to explain what facts support your conclusions. With regard to this discussion, you have provided some useful information about the Triplanar tone arm. Most of it seems reasonable, some of it seems questionable. Other people, including me, have added some information. I'm not going to declare that everything I write is correct, but if someone has persuasive facts to the contrary, then I want to see it; my attitude is that I might learn something. Even if I am inclined to disagree, it will likely force me to get my facts together to support my opinions; or I might get my facts together and find that they don't support my opinion. Either way, ego is of littel value to me here, the idea is to learn something, otherwise this forum is of little value to me. |
Paperw8, a few posts ago you said: But, yeah, if it's easy to remove, then it's probably worth a try on a "what the heck" basis. Indeed, and it is easy to remove: take 5 screws out, put 3 back in. It shouldn't take more than two minutes. (Re-checking the alignment of your cartridge will take longer.) What the heck! Something you hear or observe may shed a different light on the rationale I posted on 12/08/07 (long ago, no surprise you missed it) and which others have confirmed by their own experiments. A different explanation for the audible change from removing the trough might lead to further improvements. That would be very interesting indeed. Please let us know. |
I thought I would pass along my positive experiences utilizing plumbers PTFE tape on threaded connectors in case it is of interest to anyone. I typically tighten feet, visible screws, etc., on new gear when it arrives as I found that often they are not properly tightened and sometimes very loose upon arrival. I recently tried utilizing plumbers PTFE tape on the threads of items in my system including speaker spikes; stillpoints; Raven AC plinth and bearing bolts (including a wrap along the entire bolt shank on lengthy bolts); motor adjusting feet; Triplanar oil trough grub screw prior to tightening, mounting screws, interface between the main counterweight and the arm, and the fine tracking force adjustment knob with very positive results. The tape not only avoids the metal to metal interface but also decreases play between the interconnecting threads. I have found that metal to metal contact is generally not a good thing, nor is overtightening, but having everything properly tightened and decreasing/eliminating the metal to metal interface with the plumbers tape has turned out to be a very positive improvment on everything I have used it on so far in my system. |
Just a quick note to thank Dougdeacon for initiating this thread back in '05 - and another thank you to all those who have subsequently posted to it. I am a newly minted TriPlanar user and have have found much to value in this thread. Had I my TriPlanar back in 2009/2010, I would like to think that I could have contributed a few posts. And so, it saddens me that TriPlanar Tips apparently brickwalled at the end of August 2010. As always, everything has its time and its place. Still, the posts remain - offering up their wisdom and (sometimes) their foolishness for anyone to see.
However, all is not lost. TriPlanar Tips could conceivably reignite, as evidenced by 1kitch with his "I thought I would pass along ... " post of 01-10-12. Thank you 1kitch. By posting "I thought I would pass along ... ", you have made it easier for me to write this post.
And, thanks again, Doug and Ralph and lewm and everyone else who was able to participate in TriPlanar Tips.
Your exchanges and the insights you shared are much appreciated.
Sincerely,
-Edward
|
I am trying 1kitches ideas this weekend ! Will report back... |
Harrylime6, your comment about this thread hitting a brickwall may just mean that Triplanar owners are busy listening to their vinyl. That's certainly true in my case. I have been as happy as a clam ever since removing the damping trough. |
Salectric ...
I have a feeling you may be correct about TriPlanar owners being so busy listening to their vinyl that they have stopped posting to Triplanar Tips. Your explanation for the dearth of post-August 2010 TriPlanar Tip posts makes sense to me now. I ditched my trough late this afternoon, you see.
Lovely little uptick all the way 'round.
The trough stays in the box.
Now ... back to listening.
And thanks for the Tip. |
I think what happened with this thread was that Doug fell in love with the Talea, understandably, and he was the driving force here. Plus, there are only so many accoutrements that one can remove from the Triplanar before one is left with a bag of parts and no tonearm.
Ikitch, What is the problem with metal to metal contact, in your opinion? Especially where you are talking about metal screws in threaded metal holes? If a part of a tonearm is held in place by metal screws, as is done on the Triplanar, it may actually create issues with energy dissipation if the screws are isolated from the body of the tonearm via plumber's tape. This is highly theoretical and probably a very minor effect, but still....
If the major issue is screws becoming loose over time, I would suggest "Loctite". With Loctite, at least there would still be metal/metal contact where that might be doing some good re dissipating energy put into the tonearm by the cartridge body. I have never tried it, so YMMV. |
The coupling of the arm to the plinth is paramount in any turntable. IME you do not want anything to interfere with that. |
With one exception, I haven't experienced any screws loosening up. The exception is the cueing control which is not a metal-to-metal issue, rather a metal on some kind of plastic. Each time I tighten up the cueing so the arm will stay up when the cueing lever is raised, it will stay that way for a few months or so, then loosen up causing the arm to lower suddenly on to the record. I learned my lesson from this and never leave the arm in the "up" position over the record. I don't want to risk damaging the cantilever in a sudden drop.
I wish Triplanar had simply used a reliable cueing device made by Rega or some other company. I think of this every time I use my Schick which has a simple but reliable cueing control. |
Salectric,
I think the lift per se is a damped piston-type device. Perhaps your grub screw, that fixes the height of the lift in relation to the arm tube, which is becoming loose. I've never messed with mine in nearly 20 years, and no problems. |
Lewm, I have not experienced cover machine screws, for example, loosening after being tightened, but have often found screws and feet loose and sometimes missing on new gear which is the basis for properly tightening everything. Properly tightening the items decreases resonance issues, such as that resulting from a loose cover. I did find that my drivers loosened up after a period of time, which required tightening as well, even on a subwoofer replacement driver I personally installed and tightened. A metal to metal interface is generally a transmission conduit which the PTFE tape helps defeat similar to vibration isolation products. It also eliminated the play in my Raven motors feet which was quite extensive. However, sometimes a metal to metal interface may be beneficial in a system as well. I also found much to my surprise, that Cardas caps which I have been routinely using for years, was actually detrimental in my system. I would certainly like to be able to utilize some type of cap over the jacks, and will probably try plastic or rubber ones at some point, but it's unfortunate that the caps will no longer be going back on my active equipment, as I have accumulated quite a few of them. I have no rational explanation as to why installation of the caps was detrimental, as it is simply a cover. However, I live in the Washington DC area and I may have been picking up some type of signal or interference through the caps, but other than that idea, I am clueless. The ears are the final judge and jury. |
1kitch, We are neighbors; I live in Bethesda, on the West side near the river. I take your point that sometimes isolating screws with plumber's tape might be beneficial, sometimes not. I am in awe of you if you can handle the tiny pieces of p.t. needed to wrap any of the tiny screws on a Triplanar. I can barely wrap plumbing pipes with it. |
Haven't checked back here in a while and missed the micro-burst of activity back in January. Thanks to 1kitch and Harrylime6 for reviving this thread. Glad it's still proving helpful/useful to new TriPlanar users. If some set of threads is very loose then PTFE tape might indeed be indicated. I may try that on my speaker spikes, thanks! If the threads are well and tightly machined then Ralph's Loktite suggestion makes sense to me. Horses for courses? I think what happened with this thread was that Doug fell in love with the Talea, understandably, and he was the driving force here. Plus, there are only so many accoutrements that one can remove from the Triplanar before one is left with a bag of parts and no tonearm. Lew, we did indeed fall in love with the Talea - unquestionably a step above - but our budget has gone in other directions in the last few years. Our TriPlanar is still in situ, playing as well as ever. It's currently my lawn mower that's a bag of parts! ROFL |
Correction, it was Lew who mentioned Loktite. Sorry!
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Thanks, Doug. I was feeling unappreciated due to not being credited for the loctite idea. (Did you know that autocorrect wanted to change "loctite" into "lactate"? Is there some cosmic significance to that?) We have brass doorknobs in our house, held in place by tiny setscrews that were forever coming loose until I finally started coating the threads with loctite ("lactate" again). Now my wife no longer gets stuck in the basement, which she used to find to be very upsetting for some inexplicable reason.
Just to say that my brief audition of the Talea II at my neighbor's house leads me to believe you guys may be correct; the Talea is at least a bit better. I can draw some conclusions because my neighbor uses my old Sound Lab speakers and drives them with an Atma-sphere amplifier. Thus I am familiar with the "sound" of the downstream equipment. The wild card is his ZYX UNIverse cartridge, with which I was not previously familiar and which is obviously superb. Are you (Doug) still infatuated with the UNI, or have you moved on? |
Lewm- You have a neighbor who has a ZYX Uni/Atma/Soundlab system? How awesome is that??? I've got a neighbor who used to play Streisand full blast on his Bose acousti-mass rig set up on the porch in the summer! Thank goodness he got a job on the left coast. I am happy to report that the last time he was home, he mostly played chainsaws. They were much better than Babs! |
I don't get the Talea thing at all. Every time I have heard one, they sounded light in the bass. The Triplanar easily beats it in this department. But OTOH, I say that coming from the perspective of having the master tape of the LP and was there when it was recorded. Last time I brought this up I got castigated for it, as if having that sort of recording was a bad thing.
So I don't get it- fad? Do I have bass bandwidth others don't? (I doubt it). This is one I would like to figure out. |
Atmasphere, you are in the minority, you are looking for high fidelity. I think most audiophiles, 80-90%, are trying to create a sound that fits their notion of what a system should sound like, which has little or nothing to do with fidelity.
As a high end dealer many years ago, I was shocked to find most audiophiles cant hear much, most of the time their wives or significant others could hear more acutely and articulate clearly what they were hearing. I would put money on it that given your profession, you do have better hearing than most, it has been trained by years of experience. By the way, I use to argue that my Proac Tablettes produced better bottom end than many speakers, simply because they produced overtones and high frequency extension much more clearly than many fullrange speakers and you could tell more about how the base was being played. |
That's ok, Ralph. I don't get the whole, Atmasphere thing either. Same rave over your amps. I don't hear anything special. |
That was a cheap shot, as I'm sure you know. |
A well deserved and earned cheap shot, IMO. |
Lew,
Our TriPlanar still has a UNIverse mounted on it. Glad you finally had the opportunity to hear one. We've enjoyed it since 2004, our infatuations being longer-lived than some.
We've only recently heard a cartridge significantly better it. Can't say more since it's not released yet and we've only got a beta copy. It's a design we'd urged the manufacturer to try from 2007. The recession of 2008 and other events intervened but it's finally here... almost! Review pending... ;)
Swampwalker could probably arrange to hear it, if he wanted. :)
I don't believe the posts below his contribute to the OP's intent and once again request that OT conversations be taken elsewhere.
Regards to all,
Doug
|
Doug, you're such a tease.... |
Sbrown, I'm glad SOMEBODY noticed! You should see me in my best Levi's... care to buy me a drink? :-D
For the curious, there are some hints buried in that little indiscretion... :)
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07-10-12: Dougdeacon
Sbrown, I'm glad SOMEBODY noticed! You should see me in my best Levi's... care to buy me a drink? :-D
For the curious, there are some hints buried in that little indiscretion... :) Blue Jeans is making a cartridge ? |
Doug- I'll give you a call. Love to hear something that outplayed the UNI on your rig. |
Michael, please do!
Good one, Albert. Now let me explain about teasing... ;)
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Dan_ed, Are you a dealer or a manufacturer? Just trying to understand the genesis of your pique.
Swampwalker, That neighbor to whom you refer owns my old pair of Sound Lab U2s. He since had them upgraded to "PX" status at substantial additional expense. I am also his official local hand-holder, whenever his audio system has a hiccup. This is why I felt qualified to make a judgement that his system sounded great via Talea/UNIverse; I have prior listening experience. AND I still own Sound Lab speakers and Atma-sphere amplifiers, which are sublime, Dan-ed. Sorry for you that you cannot appreciate them. Maybe you need an MP1 preamp to dig fully the OTL circlotron paradigm. Nevertheless, I have not given up my Triplanar and don't foresee doing that. There may be a UNIverse in my future, however. (Sorry for the partially OT comment.) |
Lew,
I just indulged in some semi-OT chat myself, so no problem! ;-) Just wanted to halt an entirely OT snark-fest.
Email me if you want to know more about my "tease".
|
Dan_ed, cheap shots aside, you failed to answer the question, and I see that no-one else has come forward in the meantime.
So here is the challenge, as I see it. If you really want to compare nearly any bit of equipment, the problem is establishing a reference. This speaks directly to knowing how something is supposed to sound. The best way I have have found to do that is to be present at the musical event when it is being made and record it in a proper hi-fi way (for example using two high quality mics set in a stereo pickup pattern going directly into the recorder). Now there is more to it than that, for example I found it was really nice to work with the ensemble so that the tape I was making with its mic placement did indeed sound like the ensemble on playback. That usually takes some tweaking so the mics 'hear' what your ears hear.
Once you have the master tape then begins the process of getting its playback to sound like the actual musical event. An LP can also be produced from the tape, and IMO/IME it should be more than just a test pressing, so others can buy it and hear it.
The LP can be compared to the master tape. Its best if this is done using the recorder on which the tape was made, failing that at least one that is properly calibrated.
This allows one an unassailable reference! If you were at the the original musical event, there will be things that you know about the recording that are not as ephemeral as our usual aural memory can be. So far this is the best method I know of to generate a reference.
Using this technique, its easy to see that the Talea, while doing very well for itself, is simply bass shy compared to the Triplanar. From an engineering perspective, its easy to see why- the Triplanar does not loose tracking pressure with bass notes and warp because its bearings are in the same plane as the vinyl. Any arm that places the bearings above the LP surface will be subject to loss of tracking pressure due to bass and warp. IOW, this trait is predictable from an engineering point of view and is confirmed as an audible artifact.
I'm sorry Dan_ed if you feel you need to take a shot at me; but I am only stating a simple truth. I understand that its one that not everyone finds comfortable; but I'm not a tone arm manufacturer, and anyone that knows me knows that I am most interested in the music. I think/hope that this is also the case with others here. I also acknowledge that I am not the last word in things audio, but I am not offering my opinion here- what I have said so far is simple fact. I apologize if its not the most convenient. |
I have owned both a Triplanar Mk 7 and Talea 2.The Triplanar arrived in Oct 2008 and the Talea 2 in Dec 2010. There was a period of over a year when the 2 arms were mounted on the same TT and compared with the same cart ie initially a Transfiguration Orpheus L and later a Lyra Titan i. I don't understand tone arm engineering nor do I wish to. After extensive like to like comparison, I sold the Triplanar as I found it was no match for the Talea 2. I do not at any point recall a discernible bass deficiency in the Talea 2. I listen to a lot of rock with heavy bass overtones eg Dire Straits(the opening track of Brothers In Arms has some of the most visceral bass recorded) apart from traditional and modern blues, music that is enhanced by LFE.IMHO,to a music lover its the overall sonic picture which matters, and not any individual trait. Is the Talea2 a perfect arm? Certainly not, but I love it and would love to see some improvements without forking out for a Telos.
Sorry for the digression.
I have no relationship to any manufacturer/distributor but am simply a genuinely happy audiophile.
Cheers
Pradeep |
i'll echo Pradeep's experience. the Triplaner is a fine tonearm. i owned it when i acquired the Talea 1, and even initially when i had the Talea 2. as good as the Triplaner was, both Talea's were better at most everything. it's not that the Triplaner was deficient, only that it did not offer the degree of precision or livelyness of either Talea, and as far as bass; the Talea 2 had better bass impact, energy and decay in degrees. it also had a more defined soundstage.
the Triplaner did not approach my Rockport, or any of my master tapes in overall performance; whereas the Talea 2 definitely did.
it's interesting that Atmasphere would choose the Triplaner as his reference that supposedly had better bass than the Talea 2; as not only did i have one (a Triplaner) among my tonearms, but 2 of my local friends switched from Triplaners to Talea's, and Joel Durand also had a Triplaner. i think we kinda had that issue well covered.
and i don't blame Atmasphere for loving the Triplaner, it is a wonderful arm and i mean no disrespect toward it. |
It appears to me that Atmasphere's description here gives me much more confidence in his experience with this tonearm. I do understand some of the alternate fanclub comments that are expressed with some confusion that is expressively clouded by an escalating confirmation bias.
So, IMHO, if someone is reading this thread and trying to come to a sense of understanding...trust Ralph's superior experience over hobbyist that are confused with creating an illusion of superiority by buying labels without the capability of putting those items to proper use.
Atmasphere, aka Ralph, thank you for your clear and well thought out
observations! Please up the task of bringing light into this thread; I for one, appreciate reading your thoughts.
Cheers! |
Unoear, thanks but you should not encourage me :)
I have been picky about bass for a long time. That is literally the reason why I was trying to find a way to direct-couple tubes to a loudspeaker way back in the mid/late 1970s. I play bass, and have played bass in orchestras for decades. So I am picky and hard to please in that area.
I can understand why someone would prefer the Talea if their system is not entirely full-range. To me it had a nice, mild mid-bass hump that I did not hear in the Triplanar, its that last bit between 16 and 30Hz or so where I noticed the Triplanar was doing things that the Talea did not.
One recording I made is called Canto General, which is on LP and CD. When we prepared for this recording, we had access to the hall as a rehearsal space for an entire week. To I had a lot of time to play with mic placement, the layout of the orchestra and we made a lot of test recordings. In addition, we found the largest bass drum in the Twin Cities for use in the orchestra. It was nearly 6 feet across. I wanted to produce a recording that had real bottom end that would challenge a stereo and give me a good bass reference.
There are tracks where the drum is played gently, yet even though it should seem like it is rippling the floor in front of the speakers, without any boom. IOW its a subtlety. This is one of the areas where the differences between these arms was easy to make out. To me the Talea is nice, its just not completely neutral.
If your speakers and amps have trouble making these frequencies without rolloff or phase shift, you may hear something different. I find it frustrating to use speakers that lack bandwidth, which is why from the very early days that I started, I've always had something that could go to 20Hz or lower with ease.
(Mike, I had understood that you had a problem with your subwoofer (one channel not playing)- was that corrected by the time you did your comparisons?)
The other area I hear the Triplanar doing a better job is in the soundstage. Its just more locked in, like the master tape. Of course, I'm playing the tape on the tube machine that made the recording... |
Great thread (although it did seem to go off into some weird directions at times). Thanks to all who have participated, especially Thom Mackris, who still keeps a flame burning on his site for the Tri-Planar (with lots of helpful instructions).
I've owned the Tri-Planar for about 4 or 5 years now (the Mk. VII Ultimate II version) and although I love it and do not suffer from upgrade-itis, there is one thing that really irks me about it; namely, how the VTA tower rotates fairly easily, even when the nut on the tower is very tight.
On those rare occasions when I go through the whole obsessive full-blown tweak session of mounting the arm and cartridge down to the last mm using a bunch of tools, protractors, etc - having that tower move a hair every other time you adjust a screw or bolt is really irritating. Sure it does not take much to put it back into place and dial in the spindle-to-pivot distance...OVER AND OVER AGAIN....but it is still a pain in the neck.
Maybe it is just my arm in particular. I dont know. A few folks mentioned this "feature" in the thread. That is my only complaint though.
Other than that, I really do like the ergonomics, versatility, and precision that the Tri-Planar offers. Herb Papier really was a genius. He thought of everything that an analog fetishist would want to do with a tonearm and then came up with some really clever ways to put these adjustments all together into a single package. |
Several have posted that the Tri has new wiring and a 12 inch version coming out in Jan... |
Yes! I've not heard it yet but looking forward to it. |
Dear Rottenclam, If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the pivot rotates in the horizontal plane, however slightly, even when the set screw is tightened down. Is that so? If it is, then get the thing fixed! You should not have to put up with that. I have owned mine since the early 90s, and I never experience that issue. Most likely, Tri can take care of that problem easily. |
Original thread starter here. I've owned my TriPlanar VII since 2004 and agree with Lewm. Once snugged down properly my VTA tower never rotates. Nor does spindle-to-pivot distance change when I loosen and re-tighten the set screw on the VTA tower. Something's amiss.
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hi Doug,
Does the knob at the top of the tower easily rotate when the grub screw is snugged down? Mine does....just wondering if something is loose, broken or working as designed....I don't think the VTA tower actually changes however in my case ...
PS Right now I am running a Lyra Atlas, I've read a few posts (other threads) that say the Tri and Lyra's aren't the best combo...sounds darn nice to me...but maybe there is better (isn't their always though in this hobby) |
Mine's a year old. The VTA knob does not rotate easily when the grub screw is tight, nor does my VTA tower shift at all. |
There is a screw beneath the VTA tower; you have to remove the arm from the plinth to see it. If the VTA tower moves, this screw may be loose.
I got to hear the new 12" arm last night! It was installed on a Technics SP-10 with one of Albert's Panzerholz plinths.
The sound was utterly relaxed, effortless, utterly locked-in soundstage, just like tape. Very black background, the sounds seem to just emerge out of thin air. Somehow the arm seems like it is more transparent, perhaps because there is less tracking distortion? The effective mass of the arm is the same as the 9" arm. We were listening with a Dynavector. Very easy listen, very enjoyable. The system made no editorial, even on lesser-quality recordings. Really has me thinking... |
@Lewm, Wrm57, and Doug Deacon - thanks for the confirmation. Something is definitely amiss with my arm in this case.
@jfrech - when the screw is tight on my VTA tower, I can still turn the knob about a quarter inch, but it comes to a halt pretty quick and no adjustments are actually made to VTA. I have to actually unscrew the VTA tower screw in order for the dial to fully rotate and make adjustments. BTW, I'm using a Lyra Helikon SL and it is a huge improvement over my Zu DL-103. However, I'll admit to yearning for an opportunity to try one of the higher end Dynavectors.
@Atmosphere - Argh! Thanks for this info. It means taking the whole rig apart again, but I'm definitely going to check on it. If this does not resolve the issue, I'll reach out to Tri.
Thanks again, guys. |
***UPDATE***
Hey Atmosphere, I removed the entire arm. That big old screw underneath the VTA tower was not loose (there was no play), but I applied just the slightest bit of tightening pressure, just for good measure.
Also, I completely removed the screw from the VTA column and rotated the collar freely back and forth a few times, just to exorcise any gremlins, and then screwed it back in.
Well guess what? The problem does not exist anymore. I'm inclined to think that it was Atmosphere's suggestion that resolved the issue.
Thanks again, folks. I'm always pleased to get quick and helpful comments from people in this hobby. |
Glad you got it sorted!
Happy New year to all! |
@Rottenclam, glad you got it sorted! Happy 2013! @Jfrech, Does the knob at the top of the tower easily rotate when the grub screw is snugged down? Mine does....just wondering if something is loose, broken or working as designed.... Mine does too. It's caused by "backlash" in the threads, i.e., the gap between the male and female parts, and it's normal. Every threaded fitting has *some* amount of backlash, else the threads would bind. See Tip #7 in my original post and John_tracy's post on 5-27-05. Older TriPlanar VIIs like mine have quite a bit. Newer builds, including the VII Upgraded arms I've played with, have less. I suspect Tri Mai tightened up the machining as one of the upgrades. |
Now that all Triplanar-users are present and accounted for, does anyone know whether Tri can upgrade a 9-inch arm to a 12-incher? Normally, this would not tempt me, but it is not possible without some serious inconvenience to mount the 9-inch version on an SP10. Thus conversion of mine to 12 inch length would be tempting. (Probably should just call Tri.) |
Please call him...might catch him right before CES... |
