Albert, that must have been Paul.
I hang out at J.C. Pen-NAY in a black shirt,
and pink running shorts of course. ;~) |
Hodie,
In the right circumstances coathangers can be formidable devices. Remember, 'Mommy Dearest'? The current maker is certainly aware of problem #2. I told him myself and the dealer I installed an arm for also brought it to his attention. A lower durometer sleeve on the cueing support would be a more elegant solution for him to adopt.
Despite these unresolved eccentricities, if you're comfortable with your VI I think you should consider upgrading it to a VII. Two well-eared audiophiles who've heard both the VII and previous versions were thoroughly surprised at how much better the VII sounds. In my own experience it comes very close to matching the finest arm I've heard, and actually beats it in a few areas. Frank Schroeder himself was surprised at how close the Mark VII came to his Reference, and has been very complimentary in several internet postings.
Sirspeedy,
I have to concur, sadly, on your view of Herb Papier's successor. He seems to view his role as curator of a museum piece and has been quite uninterested in making any refinements.
My arm (dealer demo) came with the finger lift firmly attached to the headshell. I've tried to remove it but the screw was fastened with Loktite or something. It won't budge. I'm all for tweaks but I draw the line at hacksaws!
John_Tracy,
Thanks for tweaking my sloppy terminology. You'll get no backlash from me. Of course idea #6 will work on any arm with an exposed end stub. I used it on my OL Silver for a while. IMO this is actually superior to VTF fine-tuning mechanisms, not to mention less expensive. Who knows what sonic baggage all those springs and screws and dials may carry? An O-ring on the end stub is just as easy to use and shouldn't contribute to any resonance problems. |
Good points Thom.
Keeping the VTA tower grub screw tight is indeed essential except when actually adjusting arm height. Random variations in spindle-to-pivot dimension would be pretty tough to work with!
Also, when aligning a cartridge or measuring VTF, disengage antiskating by slipping something beneath the weight. Otherwise the stylus won't stay put, or at best the arm will be pulled outwards. This may be in the manual, so it doesn't qualify as #10.
It seems quite likely Tri Mai is getting his protractors from the same source as TurnTableBasics. No problem with that, it's a pretty good tool. I bought the TTB protractor on Twl's recommendation long before I got the TriPlanar. Good point about raising the arm when using it though. It is quite thick. Hmm, should I play it and adjust for the tightest mirror-image? |
SirSpeedy,
Great story about Herb Papier and your arm. I wish we'd gotten ours before he passed on. I'd have loved to correspond with him, if only to say "Thank you." Sorry you had to get rid of yours.
Obviously we're from the same school when it comes to maximizing our gear. Those of us trained by Twl know that the striker from a matchbook or two lead weights from Kmart's fishing dept. can sometimes do more for a rig than a $1,000 upgrade. The opportunity for effective user involvement is one of the coolest things about vinyl.
Hello Thomas,
Many thanks for that additional idea, which shall be officially known as Tip #8. I'm aware of one person who had to trim the plastic lining in the bevelled donut just to balance his cartridge. I should have mentioned that.
Thanks to all. Hopefully some new user will stumble across this thread and find something useful. |
If I can find a way to mod my old XLM MkII into another UNIverse, it's yours for $79.95!
I just made three feet for beneath our new TT, using nine coasters Paul "sourced" from Bed, Bath and Beyond. (That is so gay - I tried Home Depot, really.) Basically it's a thin sandwich of rubber, cork, steel and felt, four layers constrained by 80+ pounds of rig.
Not surprisingly, we hear the difference between these coasters and the ones we'd been using temporarily, which were just cork. The new ones firm things up quite a bit. Very tight imaging, more air and space around instruments and singers, better depiction of the dimensions of the soundspace. Not bad for $20. |
Andrew,
We've never evaluated the sound with the counterweight screws at different tightnesses. I've always kept them quite snug to avoid weight movement, as you said. This is especially important since I'm back there every day messing with O-rings.
My baseline VTF (sans O-rings) never drifts by more than .01g, and that could be attributable to variations in weighing technique, air currents, etc.
I agree with Ralph and Albert on the improved tolerances in the newer arms. Dan_Ed's VTA threads are notably tighter than mine. It still can't hurt to take up the backlash, as Albert said. Repeatable results really matter since the VTA sweet spot is so tiny - and I sure wish someone could explain that!
Tip #11 (old news to many):
If you don't use the damping fluid, lift the arm and remove the damping trough. It's a resonance trap which feeds airborne energies back into the arm. Removing it lowers the sound floor, a nice little upgrade for free.
Leave the dipping screw in place, snugged down tight. It provides useful effective mass and removing it impairs bass and dynamics a tad (at least with our cartridge, it could vary with others). |
Tip #9 (10?), stolen from my other thread and added here to help newbies find everything in one place:
Remove the antiskate weight. It's too heavy and limits dynamics with most cartridges.
Since the bare dogleg does not provide quite enough anti-skating force to prevent R channel mistracking on some very dynamic passages, we turned to our favorite TriPlanar tweaking material, O-rings.
McMaster Carr sells O-rings perfectly sized to fit the TriPlanar's AS dogleg.
Go to www.mcmaster.com
- scroll down to "Fastening and Sealing" (in the right-hand column)
- click "O-Rings" (near the end of the section)
- select # 103 from the drop-down list of Dash Numbers
- select "Viton" from the materials choices
- $4.98 for a bag of 50 O-rings
These fit the dogleg snugly and each ring weighs ~1/26th as much as the metal AS weight. Experimenting with a very dynamic EMI 'Rigoletto', we found that 6 rings eliminated all audible mistracking, but 5 rings sounded clearer. Since few records are as difficult to track as this EMI, we opted for 5 rings for everyday use.
The number of rings you need could vary of course, but I like this method. It's quick, easy, cheap and effective.
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Hi Jfrech,
Glad #11 is working for you too. A friend in LA first suggested it to me and everyone who's tried it seems to agree.
Regarding A/S, reducing it to the minimum needed for clean tracking improves microdynamics, low level detail and harmonics - much like fine tuning VTF. The amount you need varies with the cartridge, its behavior as it ages and even from LP to LP if you have everything dialed in.
After switching to the little O-rings in 2006, we found our cartridge needing progressively less A/S as time went by (also less VTF). A year or two ago it reached the point of needing no A/S at all - zero O-rings on the dogleg and the dogleg itself propped up so that there was no lateral pull on the string.
The next tweak was obvious: if we didn't need A/S then we didn't need the A/S mechanism. It had become just another resonance trap, like the damping trough. I removed the whole thing (2 minutes, no need to dismount the arm) and we heard an improvement similar to removing the trough, though subtler.
Call this #12. Something to try AFTER you've progressed from X number of little O-rings to zero with satisfactory tracking.
Enjoy!
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How does a person adjust the short pin that sticks out of the front of the cueing frame? Is this just a matter of putting a bit of pressure on this to force it down relative to the arm cueing support bar? Yes, it swivels down or up as required, pretty easily. A fingertip will do. (I assume that one should make this adjustment with the cueing lever down so as not to put too much pressure on the hydraulics of the arm lift cylinder.) Yes, though the main reason is that it's safer for your cartridge to do this with the arm locked down. The silicone fluid in the lift cylinder is not part of a hydraulic system in the sense you're probably thinking (and as I once thought). It's just a lubricant. Cueing speed is controlled by the white nylon screw, not by the fluid. Nothing you're likely to do will put that fluid under any pressure. Excessive pressures on the cueing mechanism (like raising the cueing lever with the arm locked down) could bend some of the parts. It's unlikely to cause a fluid leak. |
Mike,
The same friend who discovered the sonic benefits of removing the damping trough and arm rest recently tried removing his cueing mechanism.
He reported a degradation in sound. Not what he expected or what most of us would predict, but his ears have proven reliable.
He also removed his finger lift and reported good effects. Mine won't budge without a hack saw, so I can't confirm.
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I tried braiding my leads together and got a hum. Separating them as widely as possible eliminated it.
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Mike/Dan,
I thought it was odd too, since as Mike says the wires are often braided (and certainly touching) inside the arm.
I understand it's for mechanical damping, that's why I tried it. Maybe I'll try again, or in pairs as Dan suggests. We have zero problems otherwise so a bad solder joint doesn't *seem* too likely...
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Lew,
Your experience is consistent with other posters including myself, on this thread and others. The amount of anti-skating required is indeed cartridge dependent. This is no surprise if we think about how skating force is generated.
Skating force varies with groove friction. Given two different cartridges, even if one mounted and aligned them identically (optimizing VTF for each) stylus friction in the groove would vary with stylus profiles, cartridge mass, the compliance of the suspensions and downforce.
Your Urushi is heavier than the Colibri. It has a less compliant suspension. It requires more downforce. All these differences increase groove friction. This generates more skating force, so more anti-skating is required. Your results are consistent with theory (and VdH himself recommends low levels of antiskating for his cartridges).
In all these respects your Colibri and my UNIverse are more alike than either is to an Urushi. It's no surprise that the Urushi wants more anti-skating than either of them.
Another example: Dan_Ed has told us he's on the fence regarding antiskating for his XV-1S/TriPlanar. He either wants none (for sonic clarity) or the tiny amount provided by the bare dogleg or dogleg + a few O-rings (for sonic heft).
The XV-1S is heavier than Colibri or UNIverse, like an Urushi, but its compliance is similar to VdH and ZYX. Should we be surprised that it likes more anti-skating than Colibri/UNIverse but less than Urushi? It should surprise us more if it were otherwise.
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Nandric,
If you go back up this thread to my post on 9-16-06, you'll find a tip regarding O-rings instead of the anti-skate (or anti-bias) weight. They provide an easy way to reduce and adjust lateral force whilst still applying more than "zero". |
Pradeep,
Glad you took the time to try this teeny tweak. A subtle and mild "you're welcome" back to you. :-)
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I'm aware of several instances of incorrectly made mounting jigs. Ran into the problem twice when setting up rigs for people 6-7 years ago... just as Fremer described.
OTOH, my own (10+ year old) jig is correct. So are the newer ones I've seen.
A batch of incorrect jigs got sent out at some point. Hopefully a one-time goof, but who knows?
I always check pivot-to-spindle with a ruler when setting up an arm. You should too.
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Correction, it was Lew who mentioned Loktite. Sorry!
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Many have tried it, including me. No one I've met in five years likes it.
In my case the result with Shelter 901, several ZYX's and a few MM's was always the same: dullsville. Transients that should explode off the record like a Leroy Neiman just lolled around like a Rubens.
I suppose it might help tame some cartridge that sounds totally raw and edgy, but I'd rather get a better cartridge than fix a bad one with band-aids. Besides, the TP's noise floor is significantly lower with the damping trough removed.
YMMV as usual. If you like Rubens, give it a try!
Note: this has NOTHING to do with fluid damping in the bearing well of arms like unipivots from such as Graham or VPI. Fluid damping on those arms is differently implemented and IME it's beneficial with almost any cartridge. Perhaps a unipivot bearing doesn't sink resonances away from the cartridge as well as captured bearings (?). Whatever the reason, on those arms it's a big help.
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Well, I didn't say it would be good... just easy!
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Lew,
So sorry for the poor analogy, especially if it offended artistic sensibilities. Pollack will do.
While we're offering corrections, no one on this thread has merely "claimed" the damping trough is a negative. We've removed it and listened for ourselves (and yes, mine was screwed on very tight).
The PRESENCE of the trough is a negative for one reason, as discussed above when the suggestion was first made. It's the same reason the antiskate device and armrest are (somewhat lesser) negatives.
The USE of the trough is a negative in sonically different ways. Damping alters the internal resonance characteristics of the arm, and the result is not good.
Try it. You'll have no trouble deciding for yourself, as so many others have. Explanations don't convince so well, and risk being trite!
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I'm pretty sure it would be easy to DIY a 12" arm into a 9" one... two cuts, spot of glue, done!
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In the past year much of this thread has been filled by posts from people who won't take fifteen minutes to try a simple, reversible tweak. Some timidly seek explanations, others boldly assert them. Neither will try or trust their own hands and ears.
Such abstraction wants to believe (and by posting asks us to believe) that a tonearm is an idea pure enough to be understood without the messy realities of handling it as a tool or even hearing it as an instrument. That has not been my experience.
Timidity and chutzpah,
Insecurity and overconfidence,
Inverse and obverse,
Of one counterfeit coin.
This thread addresses mainstream investors:
Put up real money,
Post audited results,
Shareholders will notice.
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Hmmm... Wrm57 and Jfrech both experienced a loss of damping whilst cueing.
I caution everyone to review Tip #1. Ignoring that can and probably will cause this problem.
I'm not suggesting that either of them did that... they may have or there may be some other cause.
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... ultimately what counts is whether a person knows what they are talking about. Agreed. In this case the measure is how music sounds with and without the trough. We know. You don't. The OP requests that you avoid further postings on his thread, which he started to help people willing to help themselves, not to argue anyone into something they're unwilling to try. |
Michael, please do!
Good one, Albert. Now let me explain about teasing... ;)
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Dan,
Thank you for asking, I appreciate it. You'll find the answer in my last post, dated 08/27/10. I haven't posted since as it would be fatuous to contribute to a discussion after explicitly asking that it stop.
If the next post on this thread were a new tip or a practical question/report regarding an old tip, it would serve the purposes of this thread. Anything else probably wouldn't.
It needs two to argue, but only one to stop.
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Ralph,
That's an fascinating suggestion but it's way too much trouble to reinstall my trough to test.
I'm going to work up some theoretical objections to justify not trying it. ;-)
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Paperw8, a few posts ago you said: But, yeah, if it's easy to remove, then it's probably worth a try on a "what the heck" basis. Indeed, and it is easy to remove: take 5 screws out, put 3 back in. It shouldn't take more than two minutes. (Re-checking the alignment of your cartridge will take longer.) What the heck! Something you hear or observe may shed a different light on the rationale I posted on 12/08/07 (long ago, no surprise you missed it) and which others have confirmed by their own experiments. A different explanation for the audible change from removing the trough might lead to further improvements. That would be very interesting indeed. Please let us know. |
Lew,
Our TriPlanar still has a UNIverse mounted on it. Glad you finally had the opportunity to hear one. We've enjoyed it since 2004, our infatuations being longer-lived than some.
We've only recently heard a cartridge significantly better it. Can't say more since it's not released yet and we've only got a beta copy. It's a design we'd urged the manufacturer to try from 2007. The recession of 2008 and other events intervened but it's finally here... almost! Review pending... ;)
Swampwalker could probably arrange to hear it, if he wanted. :)
I don't believe the posts below his contribute to the OP's intent and once again request that OT conversations be taken elsewhere.
Regards to all,
Doug
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Sbrown, I'm glad SOMEBODY noticed! You should see me in my best Levi's... care to buy me a drink? :-D
For the curious, there are some hints buried in that little indiscretion... :)
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Lew,
I just indulged in some semi-OT chat myself, so no problem! ;-) Just wanted to halt an entirely OT snark-fest.
Email me if you want to know more about my "tease".
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Wrm57,
Thanks for the interesting report (and for keeping his long-running thread alive). The rounding off you mentioned is very visible on the website, and of course any reduction in parallel surfaces will tend to reduce standing waves and feedback by scattering reflections.
The DIY inclined are tempted. This could be the next TriPlanar Tip... is anyone with a fine mill file feeling brave?
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Original thread starter here. I've owned my TriPlanar VII since 2004 and agree with Lewm. Once snugged down properly my VTA tower never rotates. Nor does spindle-to-pivot distance change when I loosen and re-tighten the set screw on the VTA tower. Something's amiss.
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Tri Mai,
Thank you for posting that clarification. I started this thread to help owners get the most out of your excellent tonearm. Very much appreciate your willingness to contribute.
Doug
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Thanks, Atmasphere. One clarifier... when loosening/tightening that large screw, use your free hand to hold the arm by the VTA tower and frame, NOT THE tonearm itself (which could stress or damage the bearings). Obvious to some, but better a cautious word...
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Never paid much attention to the scale, always adjusted by ear.
The only way to get zero AS is to prop up the dogleg so it applies no force to the fishing line. As I was reducing AS toward zero, I spent some time using just the weight of the dogleg plus a few tiny rubber O-rings... no metal weight at all. I spent a little time with just the weight of the dogleg, nothing else on it.
When I decided to play with zero AS, I removed the entire mechanism. This made a similar improvement to removing the damping trough, although more subtle.
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Albert,
If the rubbery protective sleeve on the cueing support bar were just the tiniest bit softer, problem #2 wouldn't exist. There'd be enough friction to keep the arm from sliding randomly left or right during cueing. Maybe your arm was supplied so.
On mine and on one I installed for a dealer's customer the rubber sleeve is so hard there's no "grip" on the armtube. Since antiskating is disengaged until after the stylus is down, the armtube floats willy-nilly in whichever direction the wind's blowing. It's a simple fix though, for those who need it.
4yanx,
It does take getting used to. I guarantee every new user will do the following once: forget to re-raise the cueing lever before moving the arm back out over a new side. This gets very exciting. There's nothing quite like letting go of the finger lift and watching some fancy cartridge PLONK! down onto a record to invoke terror and build careful habits. ;-) |
10. Try to stabilize (beef up) the arm rest - maybe some damping clay ?? I wonder if this will have any effect ... could be negative for all I know. One way to find out. Frank suggested I cut mine off and mount an armrest directly on the armboard. That would be shorter, fairly non-resonant and would not feed any resonances it did have directly into the arm structure. I'm quite sure Frank was trying to help, and would take no pleasure watching someone hacksaw away on a TriPlanar! ;-) 11. Play around with the counterweight interface ... maybe machine a harder substitute like nylon or Delrin for the vinyl tubing in the counterweight ... again, this could end up being worse ... only one way to find out. I suppose that would move the resonance frequencies upwards. As for whether that would be better or worse, who knows?! Snap out of it Thom !! You have turntable designs to finish developing for the Audiofest ... yeah, but there it is ... staring me in the face. How can I own anything that's stock ??? Indeed, shame on you! How about getting Frank to make a TriPlanar-compatible armtube? That could be sweet, but I'm not holding my breath! |
Mike,
Sorry to hear you've tried that "experiment". :-(
The cylindrical housing's there to contain the fluid, obviously, so I guess the question is: "What's the fluid for?" Your explanation is more sensible and your description by analogy to a (hydraulic) elevator makes sense.
Of course it might just be lubrication for the cam/plunger interface, as I thought, but there are certainly simpler ways to do that.
Your experiment supports your hypothesis, but that still leaves you with a problem that I wouldn't attempt to repair. The fast cueing is presumably due to a bent mechanism, a fluid leak, or both. If the white set screw no longer controls cueing speed I'd contact your dealer or Tri Mai.
Hi Pradeep,
Removing the A/S mechanism is easy and reversible.
1. Remove the set screw that holds the nylon thread.
2. Remove the nylon thread.
3. Carefully pop off the tiny C-clip that keeps the swivelling black hub on the post. Try to stop it flying across the room. I used a jeweller's screwdriver and a spare fingertip.
4. Slide the black hub/dogleg off the post.
5. Gently unthread the dogleg post from the cueing frame. Some come out easily, some may be glued. If it won't budge just leave it - snapping it off is NOT reversible. A snugly fitted one won't vibrate much, you can damp with small O-rings if you wish.
6. Stick all the loose bits in a little baggie.
WARNING: do NOT attempt to remove the post that held the set screw for the thread. You'll screw up the bearings. Damp it with small O-rings if you wish.
To reinstall, find the baggie!
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Pradeep,
The benefits are "subtly mild"! Less than removing the damping trough, but audible, depending on system and ears of course.
If you're a klutz then don't bother, but provided you protect your cartridge there should be little risk.
Written instructions (if thorough) often make a task seem more difficult than it really is, and that's true here. Try just looking at the A/S mechanism for 2 minutes with the instructions in hand. Do a mental rehearsal, step-by-step. I think you'll see it's fairly simple. Your decision of course.
Dan,
Good suggestion. I considered that myself but I keep agonizing over the colors. You know how we boys are. ;-)
There's no way I'd use the heat gun with a cartridge mounted. Why take that risk? I'd also pull the leads back and shield them somehow. (Doing this with the arm mounted on my wood TT, scant inches from the edge of the TV, wouldn't be the brightest move either.) Definitely a job for clamping the arm on the workbench.
Regarding A/S vs. no A/S, even if we all shared identical listening biases the decision would still be cartridge specific. It can also depend on how much the suspension has broken in - we couldn't play without some A/S 2-3 years ago, now we can. YMMV applies for all these reasons.
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Paperw8,
The small, threaded VTF weight at the end of the stub only arrived with the TriPlanar VII U ("U" stands for updated). Previous versions of the arm lacked that feature. As I expressly stated in my original post, these tips are for the TriPlanar VII. Their applicability to other versions is untested, but #6 obviously does not apply to the VII U.
FWIW, the publication of suggestion #6 here is what inspired Tri-Mai to add that small, threaded VTF weight. You apparently got one and your gratitude is duly noted! ;-)
***
As for theoretical arguments that the damping trough is quite rigid and "shouldn't" need to be removed, I'll refer you to the dozens of owners who've actually tried it. Not one has failed to hear improvements such as I described.
Whether you choose to try it yourself or not is up to you of course, but theoretical objections won't convince anyone who's actually heard the difference.
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Haven't checked back here in a while and missed the micro-burst of activity back in January. Thanks to 1kitch and Harrylime6 for reviving this thread. Glad it's still proving helpful/useful to new TriPlanar users. If some set of threads is very loose then PTFE tape might indeed be indicated. I may try that on my speaker spikes, thanks! If the threads are well and tightly machined then Ralph's Loktite suggestion makes sense to me. Horses for courses? I think what happened with this thread was that Doug fell in love with the Talea, understandably, and he was the driving force here. Plus, there are only so many accoutrements that one can remove from the Triplanar before one is left with a bag of parts and no tonearm. Lew, we did indeed fall in love with the Talea - unquestionably a step above - but our budget has gone in other directions in the last few years. Our TriPlanar is still in situ, playing as well as ever. It's currently my lawn mower that's a bag of parts! ROFL |
@Rottenclam, glad you got it sorted! Happy 2013! @Jfrech, Does the knob at the top of the tower easily rotate when the grub screw is snugged down? Mine does....just wondering if something is loose, broken or working as designed.... Mine does too. It's caused by "backlash" in the threads, i.e., the gap between the male and female parts, and it's normal. Every threaded fitting has *some* amount of backlash, else the threads would bind. See Tip #7 in my original post and John_tracy's post on 5-27-05. Older TriPlanar VIIs like mine have quite a bit. Newer builds, including the VII Upgraded arms I've played with, have less. I suspect Tri Mai tightened up the machining as one of the upgrades. |
