TriPlanar tonearm outward skating issue
@shayes002: I, too, have noticed a high amount of native anti-skate in my Triplanar VII uii. Nothing like yours but still quite a bit. The armboard and table are perfectly level, and all parameters are set with reliable tools. Tri sent me a lighter counterweight but it’s still too heavy. So I fabricated a lighter one still, comprised of two layers of blutak between three small titanium washers. Slides on, stays put, and allows for adequate fine-tuning of bias. @cleeds: Good thought but the Triplanar has a captive cable fixed to the base, relieving stress on the arm from the cable. |
Yes, the wiring was my first thought, too. I've played around with the cable to no effect. Perhaps there is some torquing of the internal wiring within the arm tube/pivot, I don't know, but that's beyond my skill to check. And as I've been able to dial-in bias with the lighter weight, I see no need to send it back to Tri. |
Dear @shayes002 @wrm57 : That problem is a real problem with your tonearms even that one of you " solved ". That's not a normal behavior. Due to past experiences I had could be that the problem is in anti-skate mechanism where the thread in that mechanism does not " flows " in easy way ( to much friction. ) or that the thread is to short/length to achieve zero bias when in rest position. Those 2 kind of problems I had in the past with tonearms and I can't be sure that is what's happening in the Triplanar. What I'm sure is that is unacceptable in any tonearm design. It's obvious that something is wrong and the best way to fix it is that both of you put in contact/touch with the today manufacturer. Yes, I read that @wrm57 did it in the past and the manufacturer just did not fixed but it's him who has the responsability to do it. Maybe there are other owners that has a " lighter " problem with out know it. Normally that bias mechanism is " calculated " to start to works from the begin of the LP at outerward groove and goes higher in small force increments as the tonearm play at the inside grooves. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
rauliruegas That problem is a real problem with your tonearms even that one of you " solved ". That's not a normal behavior.I'm with Raul on this one. The OP treated the symptom of the pickup arm problem, not the root cause. |
Dear @cleeds : What is something " weird " is the very high tolerance levels that some times we audiophiles have with manufacturers or retailers when they just can’t fix a problem like the @wrm57 with his tonearm. I see he is satisfied when was him whom fix it. My question: where is that tonearm manufacturer that did not fix aproblem in its manugactured tonearm? , I think that when we take te responsability to fix a manufacturer problem we are taking out the main responsability of any manufacturer/designer and that’s why I said seems to me " weird " the wrm57 attitude but this attitude it’s not the first time we took it, any one can read the VPI thread here where manufacturer just does not takes its main and only responsability after the product be sold. Now, if Triplanar comes here and says that that issue is part of the toneaerm design at least the owners needs to know it but no explanation and not fixed trouble. !!! Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Now, if Triplanar comes here and says that that issue is part of the toneaerm design at least the owners needs to know it but no explanation and not fixed trouble. !!!I own two of them and neither has this problem. I would contact Triplanar; but I've talked to Triplanar about this and he says that this problem can occur if the interconnect cable is pulled too hard. It causes the cable to not have enough slack going through the gimbals. Its also easy to fix- just extract some of the wires from the cable where the clamp is mounted at the base of the arm so as to give the wires a bit more slack. |
What Ralph said. As for any pivoted tonearm, the four wires have to pass from the horizontal arm wand into the vertical shaft that supports the pivot and the bearing mechanism. At that right angle turn, the wires can impede the motion of the bearing. I think I once had this problem with my Triplanar, and it was an easy fix to just create a little slack where the wires exit the arm on their way to the phono stage. Pulling the wires too tightly can cause it. But if it's that simple, one wonders why Tri said he could not fix it; Tri is a smart guy. |
rauliruegas1 What is something " weird " is the very high tolerance levels that some times we audiophiles have with manufacturers or retailers when they just can’t fix a problem like the @wrm57 with his tonearm ... where is that tonearm manufacturer that did not fix aproblem in its manugactured tonearm? , I think that when we take te responsability to fix a manufacturer problem we are taking out the main responsability of any manufacturer/designer ... if Triplanar comes here and says that that issue is part of the toneaerm design at least the owners needs to know it but no explanation and not fixed trouble. !!!That's absurd. The manufacturer has no obligation to come here and tell us about this pickup arm. We don't know if the OP even bothered to contact Triplanar. We don't know whether it has a manufacturing defect or not. Perhaps the OP purchased this used; perhaps it's been misused or abused in some way, or damaged in shipment, or improperly installed. The problem as described here should in no way reflect negatively on Triplanar - we have no reason to believe the manufacturer is at fault in any way. |
Dear @cleeds : Maybe you are rigth ( for me is not absurd. ) but other than the OP wrm57 had the same problem and after he contacted the manufacturer the advise he gave him was not works and was wrm57 whom did it and posted here what he did it. In my first post I told the OP to put in touch with the manufacturer, is up to him do it or not instead to following asking about. It could be interesting that the Triplanar owners can make a simple test: with the AS mechanism at rest put in horizontal equilibrium ( zero VTF. ) the tonearm and see what happen and if no other tonearm shows what the OP and wrm57 posted then there is no problem in the design. In that test the tonearm must be totally inert at any point/position we moved in the horizontal plane. Well, we can make this test with any tonearm we own and see what happens. In the other side for me is not absurd that a manufacturer could comes here to help a customer. Never mind, I explain my point. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
I agree with cleeds. I’m not sure where Raul and others are getting this inflammatory business about Tri being unwilling or unable to fix this or any other issue with his tonearm. I certainly never asked Tri to adjust my anti-skate, nor claimed he said he could not. I merely asked my dealer to have Tri send me a lighter weight, which he graciously did free of charge. In fact, I have no doubt that Tri would be more than willing and able to bring my arm back to spec if I thought it worth the trouble of sending it to him, which, as I stated, I do not because it sounds great with the lighter weight I've fashioned! |
Dear @wrm57 : It was not you who posted: """ Tri sent me a lighter counterweight but it’s still too heavy. So I fabricated a lighter one still, comprised of two layers of blutak between three small titanium washers. Slides on, stays put, and allows for adequate fine-tuning of bias. """ that post tell us that was you not Triplanar whom fixed the problem because the advise Triplanar gave you not works. Was you too who posted: """ Yes, the wiring was my first thought, too. I’ve played around with the cable to no effect. """ But lewm had the same probelm that he fixed too in a simple way. @cleeds , for whatever reasons we have just here 3 tonearms with same trouble. I don’t care about Triplanar tonearm per sé because I’m not an owner of it, I just read 3 problems here with a 4K+ tonearm design. Question: what’s wrong down there?. Is it a problem developed by the customers or something about the design of that tonearm? If what Triplanar said to atmasphere is the problem seems to me like a design problem that could be fix it to not repeat again in future Triplanar arms. R. |
Dear @cleeds : J.Carr Lyra designer just two days ago posted about his products ( different issue. ), in the VPI thread after big pressure by customers VPI posted, PL of Sounsmith posted, Atmasphere posted in specific of his product design ( different issues each one of the manufacturers. ), Anvil TT designer posted a few days ago and audio distributors that care of their customers comes/came here and post. You can see very clear that it's not " absurd " as you think. But different " problems with the Triplanar tonearm is a historic " behavior ". In 2005 in a thread customers disclosed 9-10 " pproblems that they solved by it self, by coincidence one of those troubles was the AS issue: "" Changing the cueing height affects the point where anti-skate kicks in. (Yes, it's weird.) Once cueing height is satisfactory, adjust the short pin that sticks out of the front of the cueing frame. That pin controls where the anti-skate dogleg first engages the knot on the string. """ After several manufacturer revisions/up-dates ( many over many years. ) today still looks as still an unfinished tonearm design. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
that post tell us that was you not Triplanar whom fixed the problem because the advise Triplanar gave you not works. Dear @rauliruegas , I know you mean well, but you have misread my post. I did not say that I asked Tri for advice. I only asked for a lighter counterweight. You have assumed that I asked for advice, and then received incorrect advice. I only point this out because I do not want Triplanar to be misrepresented in this instance. In fact, I should have asked Tri for advice. He would have told me the same thing Ralph said here: Its also easy to fix- just extract some of the wires from the cable where the clamp is mounted at the base of the arm so as to give the wires a bit more slack. I confess, I didn’t try this until last night. I’ll be damned, the cable is not fixed to its jacket at the clamp, like I assumed, but slides easily out to create the slack Ralph mentions. (Assumptions can be deadly!) Problem fixed, and my improvised weight is no longer needed. So, good has come of this messy thread after all. Thanks! I hope it also solves the OP’s problem. |
rauliruegass After several manufacturer revisions/up-dates ( many over many years. ) today still looks as still an unfinished tonearm design.Hey Raul, have you examined any of these arms that you claim have a defect? Have you ever actually even seen a Triplanar arm in person? Have you ever heard a Triplanar arm? The OP says his problem's resolved, and yet you call the Triplanar an "unfinished" design? Sorry, but your determination is based on information that doesn't even rise to the level of hearsay, Raul. It's just speculation, and ill-considered speculation at that. |
Dear @cleeds The answer is yes to all your questions in your first sentences. My first experience with the Triplanar in a top quality performance system was in Dougdeacon ( the OP in the other triplanar thread. ) place in USA and after that around 7-8 times. Btw, the OP on this thread does not posted yet he solved the trouble. Now, in this thread 3 of 3 audiophiles that own the tonearm shared the same trouble. I don't care what you think but if 3 of 3 has the same problem something is " wrong " with that tonearm that has to be fix it by the manufacturer for can't repeated again with his customers. You are " looking " how to hit me ( as always. ) with out success ( as always. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
rauliruegas The answer is yes to all your questions in your first sentences.Sorry, but I don’t believe that the posters here shipped their pickup arms to you for evaluation. You’re just speculating. in this thread 3 of 3 audiophiles that own the tonearm shared the same trouble.Sorry, but that’s the logical fallacy often called the "Texas Sharpshooters fallacy." It’s related to the "multiple comparisons" problem that can happen when statistics are misinterpreted. You are considering only a small subset of data. Worse, you've appointed yourself as judge, jury and executioner regarding the status of these three pickup arms - about which you you know nothing first-hand, but instead rely on information that doesn't even rise to the level of hearsay. |
@cleeds : Certainly not the this thread users. 3 of 3 is a fallacy, ok with me. That tonearm design has to be fix it about, fallacy or not. At the end as I said it I don't care about Triplanar. Small subset of data?, Triplanat has a history and the other thread has more " data " and there are other " data " for years. Problem is that is unknow information for you, you just has no Triplanar experiences. At least is what you showed here through your posts. Anyway, enough. Who cares about. R. |
rauliruegas Triplanat has a history and the other thread has more " data " and there are other " data " for years. Problem is that is unknow information for you, you just has no Triplanar experiences. Again Raul, you speculate, and then pronounce your conclusion. And once again, your data is wrong - actually, you have no data in this instance and are just guessing. Your conclusion is wrong, too. Because you have such a passion for audio, I urge you to study logic and statistics. It will help you make better choices and offer more meaningful advice to others. |
Btw, the OP on this thread does not posted yet he solved the trouble.@rauliruegas , actually, yes he did. The solution I conveyed from Triplanar was in fact the correct solution and solved the problem. Please read the responses to any thread you are on more carefully before posting. for whatever reasons we have just here 3 tonearms with same trouble. I don’t care about Triplanar tonearm per sé because I’m not an owner of it, I just read 3 problems here with a 4K+ tonearm design.Its a pretty good guess that the three arms all got the same treatment! The Triplanar is a precision device and like any precision device, should be treated with care. The arm uses continuous wire from the cartridge pins all the way to the connectors on the end of the tonearm cable which is integrated. This is done to minimize mechanical connections. If someone pulls on it too hard they can tighten the wire where it passes through the gimbals but as the original poster found out, its easy to fix in a couple of seconds. |
Staying out of this mud-wrestling match, but I want to point you to an annotated photo I made to work someone through a wire dressing problem with his Tri-Planar. The owner had purchased his tonearm used and the previous owner had obviously mishandled the tonearm. Here’s the photo: http://galibierdesign.com/images/galibier_forum/triplanar_wire_routing_annotated.jpg Ralph is absolutely correct (quoted comment, below), and the above photo shows what a correctly dressed cable should look like. I would contact Triplanar; but I’ve talked to Triplanar about this and he says that this problem can occur if the interconnect cable is pulled too hard. It causes the cable to not have enough slack going through the gimbals. ... Thom @ Galibier Design |
Nice photo Thom! A picture is worth a thousand words. Salectric - thanks, that’s certainly been my experience in supporting customers remotely. It has most definitely upped my photo editing game ;-) The time is overdue for me to up my video editing game as well. Which is what I wrote also, in my post that followed on to Ralph’s first post. I’ve had it happen to me, and the fix was very simple once I was able to discern that the wires were hanging up the pivot. I’m in good company. Lewm - I confess to only scanning this thread before posting - especially after watching the conversation go a bit "off the rails" ;-) ... Thom @ Galibier Design |
Dear @atmasphere : I'm talking as an audiophile for audiophiles and I'm totally unbiased in favor or against Triplanar in this specific issue. For whatever reasons that I do not care your posts here and in the other thread seems to me ( I can be wrong. ) are biased. Anyway, all the gentlemans that posted here and that I know very well are experienced audiophiles not roockies. Two of them with that trouble: lewm and wrm57. Now, Triplanar is not the first and only tonearm that's wired all the way down to the input phono stage connectors. Problem is that in other tonearms that troubles did not happens like what we are attesting here. As an audiophile and with all my respect to you and Tom ( hi !. ) for me the tonearm has an inherent design falult/problem and in the future must be fix it. This kind of behavior with experienced audiophiles can't happens. This is my take about. If Triplanar try or not to fix it by design is up to them and as I already said: I don't care about, I'm not an owner of this very good tonearm. Of the hundreds or thousands ( I don't know ) of Triplanar owners I don't know how many of those owners have the same problem that they not detected yet. Can't detect it because the intensity of the trouble is not exactly the same in each tonearm where is happening. That's why I invited to Triplanar owners ( or other tonearm owners. ) to try the AS test I posted7explained in this thread. As an audiophile I don't like to diminish in any way this kind of critical subject in any tonearm. Well, that's me. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Raul, Do you have an equivalent phrase in Spanish for "You are making a mountain out of a mole hill"? If not, try "Tempest in a teapot". The discussion should have ended when the OP got his information. There is hardly any audio product you can name that is completely foolproof. In that adjective, the operative element is "fool". We all fool around with our stuff, and once in a while improper handling can adversely play into one or another idiosyncracy of any design. If a child spills milk on your phonolinepreamp, and it blows up, do we blame the phonolinepreamp for not being waterproof? Tonearms in particular are oddball devices, employing many different approaches to solving the same set of problems, and, while I would not bother to take a survey, I would wager that many, if not most, have an Achilles heel. Herb Papier, who designed the Triplanar, set for himself perhaps the most ambitious design goals of any tonearm designer of his era (no other tonearm allowed for adjustments in all planes, when the TP was introduced in the early 80s), and he met them all by taking some unorthodox approaches, from which we all benefit. Designers that came after Herb also benefit from having the TP to work from. (I am not arguing that the TP is THE BEST tonearm ever in the world; I am only saying that the TP was ground-breaking when it was introduced.) |
lewm Raul, Do you have an equivalent phrase in Spanish for "You are making a mountain out of a mole hill"? If not, try "Tempest in a teapot". The discussion should have ended when the OP got his information. There is hardly any audio product you can name that is completely foolproof.+1 to this. And note that the OP had the correct answer to his problem within just a few hours of his post - check the pick up arm wire so it is "dressed so as not to apply any force to the arm itself." This is one of the most basic, elemental aspects of pickup arm installation. As more and more neophytes jump on the vinyl bandwagon, it's increasingly common to see that many fail to understand what's required to properly align a pickup arm and phono cartridge. Faulty installations often result, and so do faulty conclusions about equipment and what's possible to achieve with LP playback. LP setup is not plug-and-play. |
Dear @lewm : Due to your last post I'm a little disappointed on what I was thinking of you as an experienced audiophile. Never mind. I own some bulletproof/foolproof audio items. Of course not that stupid milk's child example you posted. Almost all audio items comes with an intrinsecal trade-offs design. Those trade-offs are the ones that makes the real/true differences in between similar audio items. Now and depending of whci audio item we are talking about some kind of trade-offs are just unacceptable like this one in the Triplanar. We are not talking here of the VPI unipivot we are talking of a good tonearm in a price range that certainly is far away to be an entry level one but we are talking here of the more critical an important cartridge's " slave " that it's main target is to fulfill the cartridge/LP needs. Things like this subject in the Triplanar and the support many of you do is the main obstacule for analog can really grow-up. Is " sad " to see audiophiles that over the time are less and less demanding on quality performance audio items. That attitude makes that less and less the manufacturers have real/true chalenges to fulfill the audiophiles targets. INCREDIBLE for say the least. ! ! For you post you are satisfied with, fine with me and I don't care about. As I said I don't care about Triplanar, I'm not an owner and certainly I will not be a owner in the future. Every one enjoy what we have. Good for you and other Triplanar owners. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Hi Raul, Like yourself, I’ve encountered products which make unforgivable design decisions but it’s UNFAIR to put the Tri-Planar into this category. I have yet to handle a tonearm which didn’t have at least one or two design quirks. There is no foolproof/bulletproof tonearm in existence. If there were, I suspect it would be so over-engineered as to have sonic compromises. Also, let’s not allow the IAE ("Internet Amplification Effect") damage the reputation of a well-conceived tonearm. The only time I’ve seen any sort of problem with Tri-Planar wire routing was that SINGLE OBVIOUS CASE of ABUSE by the previous owner. I was stunned when I saw the photos it’s second owner sent me. The first owner clearly tampered with the wire and did so very incompetently. I dug up two photos the customer sent me (links are below). Can you honestly tell me that this kind of damage does not constitute abuse? My point is, that people do the darnedest things, and a manufacturer can’t control everything. The sort of individual who can handle a record and cue it up would never damage the cable routing. Take note of how the wires are untwisted (in comparison with the earlier photo I posted). It may not be clear from these views, but the wires were interfering with the cutout in the arm tube. They in NO way resemble the standard cable routing. http://galibierdesign.com/images/galibier_forum/triplanar_wire_routing_damaged-01.jpg http://galibierdesign.com/images/galibier_forum/triplanar_wire_routing_damaged-02.jpg Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
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Raul, IMO you owe Triplanar and Lew an apology. Your statements are false and uncalled for. " Raul will not apologize because he really believes he has done absolutely nothing wrong I think you need to understand Raul and the many claims he makes. Raul lives in the world of the internet and armchair theory and magazine articles and hearsay such as what contributors to this group post here and he then incorporates this limited "information" into his closely held belief system as though it were an actual verifiable fact because he can not see the difference between actual verifiable hand' s on experience and what he thinks people say its' all facts to him. So yes Raul actually believes the Triplanar tonearm is an incomplete design because it appears that way based on what he has read here in this group and he has no actual facts to challenge it and in fact it is rather obvious that he has limited experience in actually setting up a turntable system that is part of a Music Reproduction System or else he would have recognized early on that the suggestion to look at the cable "dressing" was the obvious first thing that should be carefully examined given the other information provided here in this group. |
Dear @thom_mackris : I know that you really give a very good support to your customers, good for that. The issue of my coments is way different from your " feelings " about. Looking again the first picture you shared here now I understand why is a design fault in the Triplanar that’s easy to fix and not only that but give a better quality performance to this good tonearm. Of course that it’s up to the manufacturer stays as is or make some changes. @atmasphere I owe nothing, problem with you is that I’m not biased to like you. You are a manufacturer not a simple audiophile/audio customer as me. Btw, your opinion of " flase statements " is false because your unknowledge level/ignorance in that special subject. Period. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear Raul, I don’t feel personally insulted by your response, any more than you should feel personally insulted by what I wrote. However, don’t you think you are being more than a little bit disingenuous, when you chastise Ralph for being a manufacturer commenting on a commercial product? Do you or did you not market your own Phonolinepreamp for profit, sometimes in this same forum and over a period of several years? Did you not also privately cajole several of us, including me, to purchase your preamp? Have you not announced here more than once that you and your business partner were going to bring a superior tonearm to market? (I don’t know whether the Phonolinepreamp is still in production or whether you will ever market your tonearm, but the principle is the same, either way.) So, you are a manufacturer, not a "simple audiophile/audio customer". Ergo, your motivation in attacking the Triplanar must be suspect. Anyway, my real point is that we have heard enough about this very minor idiosyncrasy of the TP, a problem that is easily avoided if one takes the slightest care not to yank the wires as they exit the base. You are free not to buy one. And let's move on. |
@lewm : I'm not attaking the Triplanar in any way and what for you is a "
very minor idiosyncrasy of the TP " for me is a fault in its design. What for you is " a problem that is easily avoided if one takes the slightest care " for me is a fault in its design and must be not present for whatever reasons with any single customer. Btw, did you already the test I explained here with your TP? is it steady at any horizontal position you choose? About my Esential I posted in this and other forums talking on it and vs other similar products. Here we are not talking of tubes and he is making a " hard deffense " of the TP because is biased to where I'm not and even in the past when I talks about the Essential I always gave the facts and testimonies about that fenomenal unit where you can't ever dream on that kind of quality level performance and when I compared against other units as: Boulder, Levinson, Krell, Halcro or darTZeel ( tubes has nothing to say by comparison. No contest at all in anyway, same for hybrids designs. ) I posted in the forums the diagrams by ST vs my Essential same measures. Btw, my unit had not the very high prices of Boulder ( around 50K+ ) or any other top units. Today is still a challange for any today similar product. So what?. In those times people like you " attack " me because I was making those true comparisons vs competiors and that this was not " usual " but what for some people is not " usual " for me not to say it is deshonestity or be hipocrit. As I have nothing vs TP I have nothing against atmasphere . That's not the issue. The issue is that you as other audiophiles more and more are less demanding that my self and this is the differences between you an me: huge differences because of that. Btw, my tonearm design is alive an running at my place but this fact has nothing to do on what I posted here about the TP where in 3 different posts I said: is a very good or good tonearm. Again, this is not the main subject I?m talking about. Got it? R. |
@atmasphere : I'm not insulting " others " as you said. I'm only telling that something is wrong down there and what is wrong is coming for a faulty design. So maybe according to you if I give my opinion of something anormal in an audio item behavior then I'm insulting the manufacturer. That's you not me. Enough. R. |
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what is wrong is coming for a faulty design.I think we can all agree that all arms have compromises; nothing is perfect. Having recorded and produced LPs and also having mastered them myself though, I can safely say that amongst arms its price and those costing quite a bit more, the Triplanar offers the least compromise. You have boasted about your arm but but it is conspicuously absent. |
Raul, I think it's time for you to let this topic go, and to accept (as Ralph and I have written) that there is no perfect tonearm. More importantly, the best tonearm for one person may not be suitable for another person. We interact with machines in a very personal way. Every individual hears differently, so a design decision (design decisions are compromises in many cases) may be sonically acceptable to one person, but not to another. I don't want to pollute this thread with too many of my own rants, but if anyone is interested, I posted on the topic of "the best tonearm" to my blog (https://galibierdesign.com/best-tonearm-01/ ). I enjoyed our time we spent together when you were traveling across the country with your Essential preamp. We will always have our philosophical differences, but in person, you are a 1st class gentleman. Balancing things out, I never thought I'd bond with Lewm in person, but I had the opportunity to spend time with him and we've gotten along famously. Sometimes the person doesn't translate from the written word (nothing new here). I'd like to see this gentleman carry over to your online personae, as the individuals who find you abrasive and pedantic are doing so for a reason. You have a wealth of knowledge to offer this community, but your "virtuous sonic warrior" approach ("my way or the highway") offends many individuals. Of course, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it ;-) Finally, a disclaimer: my Spanish is much worse than your English. Cheers, Thom @ Galiber Design |
One way in which some designers avoid the issue with the TP, that is the source of so much disagreement here between Raul and the world, is to route the wires so that they exit the arm wand just at or just before or just after the pivot. VPI and Basis tonearms adopt that style. In so doing, the wires never have to traverse a right angle bend within the tonearm structure, which is the case with the TP. However, the VPI/Basis (and Reed, I think) designs incur a penalty for choosing to externalize the wires at the arm wand; the wires asymmetrically affect the net friction in the horizontal plane, however tiny the added force may be. In fact, VPI for years let that drag force serve as an anti-skate force. Herb Papier was no dummy; I am sure he was well aware of the problems related to routing of the wires, and he made the choice he made for a reason, probably to avoid the potential for the externalized loop of tonearm wires to affect the freedom of the horizontal bearing. This is just to point out that all design choices have their unique pluses and minuses. Semantically, there is a big difference between "faulty design" and "design flaw". The way I see it, the TP designer made a choice that can cause a problem if the end user is not careful or aware. |
Dear @thom_mackris : Here and in several threads I participated I posted that exist no-perfect audio item and that what makes a differences for the better are the good or not so good manufacturer/designer choosed trade-offs. For me that trade-off I posted and ask that any TP owner or even owner of any pivoted tonearm make a test with VTF at zero and AS at " zero " ( tonearm in horizontal/vertical equilibrium. ) putting on at different horizontal positions looking if the tonearm mantain a dead-steady position where we posicionated, this have to be at all the LP surface length. Seems to me that no one of you did it or decided not share with us. So I have to be direct: @lewm did you tested your TP in the last week? what found out? and Tom what found out on that test with you TP tonearm? or any one else. Thank's in advance. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. Btw, good that we have and discuss our differences because through those discussions every one learns or confirm " something ". |
Hi Raul, It would be an interesting experiment. You’d d also need to take bearing friction into account however. Without taking bearing friction into account, the experiment is flawed. An arm wire that attempts to influence tonearm motion could be defeated by tight bearings. You’d also need to develop a reliable, accurate, and repeatable means of measuring these small forces. In other words, doing it correctly is at the back of my list, in terms of things I have on my plate at the moment. I have a new turntable to finish prototyping and an amplifier to put into production ;-) What if we found otherwise "good" tonearms induced a bit of anti-skating (VPI)? Is that a bad thing if the forces are small? This all goes back to designer’s decisions, and we may not all agree with their priorities, but this makes for variety and choice - especially if the decisions are competently engineered and implemented. Reading between the lines, your point about minimizing skating or anti-skating forces is a good one, as we’ve learned that excessive tracking, skating, and anti-skating forces can compromise dynamics. So yes, I like your experiment in theory. I just don’t have the time to do this in a rigorous fashion that would give me meaningful results. In the meantime, I recommend rigorous attention to setup detail while auditioning. The tonearm that tracks the best, has great energy transmission and dynamic presentation is a great tonearm, and I don’t have to second guess the designer’s choices. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
