So moving 2 whole number increments (~5 mm) changes the arm angle a
little more than 1 degree (~..6mm more.) The pivot to stylus tip
distance will vary depending on cartridge.
Did I get this right? @jtimothya Looks like it to me. A more effective method would be to vary the angle of the cartridge in the headshell, but there's no good way to do that and the VTA tower does it pretty well anyway. The only fiddly bit that isn't worked out is that as you vary the VTA tower, the overhang will vary somewhat as well. A tiny bit compared to the resulting rake angle... In case its not mentioned earlier though, one issue is that while 92 degrees is a nice central point to set the stylus rake angle, almost any LP is going to be slightly different than that on account of the actual stylus used to cut the groove. Mastering engineers don't set for 92 degrees, they set for the lowest noise in the groove, which may or may not be 92 degrees. |
Does anyone know why my TriPlanar VII UII on a record without tracks
skate very fast inwards even with the maximum of anti-skating ... I can
not stop the arm ... I already checked if the tonearm cable was very
pulled, it seems normal... If the LP has no tracks this would seem pretty normal. Is the needle intact? |
The tonearm seems to want to skate outwards, even with zero anti skate
applied and the weight removed from the little anti skate arm. It is
evident at various settings of VTF, VTA, etc. The platter is very level
and everything seems to be aligned OK. This outward skating force is
very light in the outer grooves and becomes stronger as the cartridge
gets closer to the end of a side. In fact, as it traces the lead-out
grooves at the end of a side, the tonearm sometimes thrusts outwards
across those grooves back into the last track. Very scary!
A
visual check of the cantilever azimuth seems to confirm an outward
pressure from the tonearm since the cantilever is leaning with the
stylus end closer to the spindle.
I can’t seem to find any information online about this phenomenon.
Any insights and recommendations would appreciated. This is caused by the tone arm cable having been pulled too hard. This causes the wiring through the bearings to be too tight. Its a fix of a few seconds- at the base of the arm, simply pull the small wire bundle back out of the cable sheath to relieve the tension. Also make sure that the tone arm cable routing to your preamp does not stretch or pull on the cable. This solution is on another thread devoted to this topic, but since it was unanswered here I have made this post. |
I thought tightening the screws on the weights was a no-brainer. Yes, you can hear that.
Albert, if you are still watching this thread, the Mk7 has a lot less slop in it than the arm that you had!! Especially in adjusting the VTA on the fly, the Mk7 has been a real boon. One of the first things Tri did when he took over the company was tighten up all the tolerances. He's continued to do that, and the newer VTA tower is really sorted out. |
HI Albert, I agree, backing up to take out the lash is a good move. There is just less of it now and more repeatable. The other thing that is really nice is the tower itself is a lot more precise, so there is less artifact from whether or not the knurled lock-down screw is tight. There's also an additional scale, so you have relative and absolute readings. |
Lewm, we asked ourselves exactly the same question! That was 5 years ago though....
I talked to Tri today- he is still trying to get things back to 'normal' :) got a think or two coming he does |
Nandric, seems to me I got 3 weights also. Have you contacted Triplanar about this? |
Lew, from what I understand the Colibri does not use the standard 1/2" mounting holes. Is that the case? Tri mentioned to me one time that that is why setting up the Colibri on his arm was so difficult. That was several years ago- the problem may have been corrected in that time. |
BTW- Tri was married this last weekend! Congrats to the new couple!
In a quote from the groom: "...I expect that things will calm down and get back to normal now" yeah right :) |
I spoke to Tri about what was the right Anti-Skate setting on the arm and his response is that there is no standard, no means of knowing what the right setting without audition, and that different cartridges seemed to have vastly different settings... He also mentioned that he himself was not a fan of lots of anti-skate and tended not to use it in his own system. But he conceded that might have a lot to do with the cartridge he is running.
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I like the arm because it works- one of the very few that does. I like Tri because he can deliver.
I don't even have the AS weight mounted on my arm. It tracks anything I can throw at it effortlessly: Black Sabbath Paranoid, Decca's Ring Cycle conducted by Solti, Verdi's Requiem (Dies Irae) on RCA's Soria series- all some of the most dynamic recordings made. Other cartridges seem to prefer using the weight from my understanding. I'm not protecting Tri, its simply that there is no good way for a manufacturer to forecast what setting will be right.
I myself would not be blowing off any high end tone arm over the perceived lack of 30 cents worth of O-rings... that is a situation that is too easily solved :) |
Jb0194, no, I don't. I don't think its much of an issue in my case- Warps the like don't seem to phase either arm.
I run the Transfiguration Orpheus on one arm and the ZYX Universe on the other- neither seems to need the damping. So right now I have the damping troughs removed. |
Hi Lew, I run the Transfiguration Orpheus at home. Here at the shop we use the ZYX Universe and the Anti-skate weight is set at the absolute minimum. |
The Triplanar has a extensional damping material on the arm tube to reduce mid and high frequency resonance artifacts. This is one of the reasons this arm is so neutral- most arm manufacturers do little to address this issue. |
Just a FWIW: although the Triplanar arm is damped, its not a good idea to go tapping on it and especially other arms to ascertain the damping qualities!
The reason is that most arms have very fragile bearings, especially if they use cones or points. The Triplanar bearings are the most durable/hardest in the world; Herb found that lesser bearings failed too easily until he started using the type found in the Triplanar. Triplanar was recently investigated by the Department of Homeland Security, because he is using more of these bearings than the military is :)
I suspect that if you put damping materials in the damping trough (and then did not use it), you would eliminate any signature that it has. |
The coupling of the arm to the plinth is paramount in any turntable. IME you do not want anything to interfere with that. |
I don't get the Talea thing at all. Every time I have heard one, they sounded light in the bass. The Triplanar easily beats it in this department. But OTOH, I say that coming from the perspective of having the master tape of the LP and was there when it was recorded. Last time I brought this up I got castigated for it, as if having that sort of recording was a bad thing.
So I don't get it- fad? Do I have bass bandwidth others don't? (I doubt it). This is one I would like to figure out. |
Dan_ed, cheap shots aside, you failed to answer the question, and I see that no-one else has come forward in the meantime.
So here is the challenge, as I see it. If you really want to compare nearly any bit of equipment, the problem is establishing a reference. This speaks directly to knowing how something is supposed to sound. The best way I have have found to do that is to be present at the musical event when it is being made and record it in a proper hi-fi way (for example using two high quality mics set in a stereo pickup pattern going directly into the recorder). Now there is more to it than that, for example I found it was really nice to work with the ensemble so that the tape I was making with its mic placement did indeed sound like the ensemble on playback. That usually takes some tweaking so the mics 'hear' what your ears hear.
Once you have the master tape then begins the process of getting its playback to sound like the actual musical event. An LP can also be produced from the tape, and IMO/IME it should be more than just a test pressing, so others can buy it and hear it.
The LP can be compared to the master tape. Its best if this is done using the recorder on which the tape was made, failing that at least one that is properly calibrated.
This allows one an unassailable reference! If you were at the the original musical event, there will be things that you know about the recording that are not as ephemeral as our usual aural memory can be. So far this is the best method I know of to generate a reference.
Using this technique, its easy to see that the Talea, while doing very well for itself, is simply bass shy compared to the Triplanar. From an engineering perspective, its easy to see why- the Triplanar does not loose tracking pressure with bass notes and warp because its bearings are in the same plane as the vinyl. Any arm that places the bearings above the LP surface will be subject to loss of tracking pressure due to bass and warp. IOW, this trait is predictable from an engineering point of view and is confirmed as an audible artifact.
I'm sorry Dan_ed if you feel you need to take a shot at me; but I am only stating a simple truth. I understand that its one that not everyone finds comfortable; but I'm not a tone arm manufacturer, and anyone that knows me knows that I am most interested in the music. I think/hope that this is also the case with others here. I also acknowledge that I am not the last word in things audio, but I am not offering my opinion here- what I have said so far is simple fact. I apologize if its not the most convenient. |
Unoear, thanks but you should not encourage me :)
I have been picky about bass for a long time. That is literally the reason why I was trying to find a way to direct-couple tubes to a loudspeaker way back in the mid/late 1970s. I play bass, and have played bass in orchestras for decades. So I am picky and hard to please in that area.
I can understand why someone would prefer the Talea if their system is not entirely full-range. To me it had a nice, mild mid-bass hump that I did not hear in the Triplanar, its that last bit between 16 and 30Hz or so where I noticed the Triplanar was doing things that the Talea did not.
One recording I made is called Canto General, which is on LP and CD. When we prepared for this recording, we had access to the hall as a rehearsal space for an entire week. To I had a lot of time to play with mic placement, the layout of the orchestra and we made a lot of test recordings. In addition, we found the largest bass drum in the Twin Cities for use in the orchestra. It was nearly 6 feet across. I wanted to produce a recording that had real bottom end that would challenge a stereo and give me a good bass reference.
There are tracks where the drum is played gently, yet even though it should seem like it is rippling the floor in front of the speakers, without any boom. IOW its a subtlety. This is one of the areas where the differences between these arms was easy to make out. To me the Talea is nice, its just not completely neutral.
If your speakers and amps have trouble making these frequencies without rolloff or phase shift, you may hear something different. I find it frustrating to use speakers that lack bandwidth, which is why from the very early days that I started, I've always had something that could go to 20Hz or lower with ease.
(Mike, I had understood that you had a problem with your subwoofer (one channel not playing)- was that corrected by the time you did your comparisons?)
The other area I hear the Triplanar doing a better job is in the soundstage. Its just more locked in, like the master tape. Of course, I'm playing the tape on the tube machine that made the recording... |
Yes! I've not heard it yet but looking forward to it. |
There is a screw beneath the VTA tower; you have to remove the arm from the plinth to see it. If the VTA tower moves, this screw may be loose.
I got to hear the new 12" arm last night! It was installed on a Technics SP-10 with one of Albert's Panzerholz plinths.
The sound was utterly relaxed, effortless, utterly locked-in soundstage, just like tape. Very black background, the sounds seem to just emerge out of thin air. Somehow the arm seems like it is more transparent, perhaps because there is less tracking distortion? The effective mass of the arm is the same as the 9" arm. We were listening with a Dynavector. Very easy listen, very enjoyable. The system made no editorial, even on lesser-quality recordings. Really has me thinking... |
Glad you got it sorted!
Happy New year to all! |
If you have problems with the arm engaging the arm rest and not allowing you to play the beginning of the LP, or of the arm seems to stop and skip before getting to the end of the LP, it is because the arm is not set up properly with respect to its base.
This is easy to adjust. Lock the arm in the rest and remove the three screws holding the arm to the arm board. Turn the arm over and you will see a single large screw dead center in the bottom of the base. Loosen it slightly and make the required adjustment, such that the arm can track past the label of the LP and also so that the arm rest is not in the way. Tighten the screw and remount the arm. |
Right! In addition, I just barely loosen it so I can put the arm back in position, and then move the rest to to the right position. Then I tighten the screw back down. |
The Triplanar is recommended for cartridges which do not reflect ANY energy into the Arm. The Arm looks solid, but it isn't. All cartridges can put energy into the arm if they are not set up right. What is supposed to happen instead is that the stylus motion is transduced into electrical energy. That will be impaired if the cartridge is putting energy into the arm (usually the result of improper effective mass: the combination of cartridge compliance with incorrect choice of counterweights, resulting in a mechanical resonance outside the recommended 7-12Hz) The strength of the Triplanar is that everything is adjustable so that the cartridge can be set up precisely. When this is done the energy applied to the arm itself will be minimized. The arm tube is also internally and externally damped- it is one of the more dead arm tubes made. |
Syntax, that strength of the Phantom is one shared by the Triplanar. It really sounds to me that you had either incorrect setup or simply a poor match between arm and cartridge.
You are correct that all cartridges put energy into the arm- this is how the arm moves across the LP after all.
The trick in the setup is such that the information is transduced by the cartridge rather than applied to the arm tube. This is done by setting up the proper effective mass, which has nothing at all to do with the materials of the arm as long as the resulting mechanical resonance falls within the target area. IOW the last sentence of your first paragraph in the post above flies in the face of tone arm theory in general.
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FWIW the Triplanar protractor has not changed at all in the last 5 years. The protractor is not incorrect- it is intentionally built with a slight amount of slop and it is expected that the exact and final position of the arm will be corrected during cartridge setup. It would seem that Michael Fremer is so focused on finding fault with Triplanar that he missed this simple fact. I discussed this with Tri Mai yesterday and he forwarded this note:
The Jig is up.
Thank you Michael for informing the public and me regarding incorrect Tri-Planar pivot to turntable spindle measurement.
My apology to all Tri-Planar customers that have incorrect turntable spindle to tonearm pivot measurement. If your turntable spindle to tonearm pivot is more than 233.5 mm then loosen but do not remove the three mounting screws at the base of the tonearm and move the tonearm slightly toward the turntable spindle or rotate the Tri-Planar tonearm clockwise to achieve 233.5mm. If the turntable spindle to tonearm pivot is less than 233.5 mm than move the tonearm away from the turntable spindle. I will develop additional tools along with the drilling template to achieve the exact 233.5mm dimension, although it should be obvious when setting up the cartridge that the arm may have to be moved slightly (this is why 10-32 screws are recommended for mounting). In addition, I will update the instruction manual with pictures so setting up turntable, tonearm and cartridge will be correct and consistent.
IOW, there was never anything wrong with the protractor as it is intended to get the arm into the right *general* location. Those that get proper alignment on their cartridges will also find that they got the dimension correct or close enough that it falls within the adjustment range of the arm.
If you have any difficulty, please give me a call at 612-623-0922 or Email: tri@triplanar.com. I am available 9:00 AM to 6:00 PM, Monday to Friday and most weekends too. We are here to serve you!
Thank you for supporting Tri-Planar. Wishing you well and enjoying music.
Tri Mai
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