Peterayer, Lewm,
I maybe one of the very few posters on this thread to have actually compared the Salvation (the earlier version with non-magnetic bearing) to a number of worthy contenders in length in my own system!
The other TTs included the Rockport Capella II (standard ruby bearing version) with 6000 arm; Micro Seiki 777 Air (air-bearing) with FR64S arm; Exclusive P3a with stock arm; and Technics SP10MKII (partially updated with some, but not all, new electrolytic caps) in stock plinth with SME V arm.
Before I got the Salvation, my friend also brought over a PTP/slate plinth/Jeremy Super Bearing Lenco with the Terminator arm to compare to the Rockport. This was documented in a thread in Lenco Heaven a couple of years ago.
First, I must stress again that the Salvation is a real bargain for its asking price! However, is it comparable to TTs 10-15X its cost? Yes and no!
In my experience, the Salvation sounds a lot like the highly modified Lenco mentioned above. As I understand, Vic also used a highly modified Lenco as reference during the development phase of his TT.
Performance wise, like the highly modified Lenco, the Salvation has incredible dynamics and explosiveness, which is its major strength against all other contenders. Yes, in this area alone, it probably could be compared favorably to TTs costing 15X more, at least to those that I have auditioned! I am not sure why, but it seems even more dynamic than the P3a and SP10 MkII in my system!
However, in areas such as background blackness, instrument layering within the sound stage, micro dynamics, and finesse, it lags slightly behind the TTs mentioned above. Over all, it just sounds slightly coarse to my ears as compated to the other TTs. Its characters may make it an excellent choice for Rock but probably not Classical. This may be due to the unavoidably higher vibration transfer in the idler/rim drive system, as compared to BD and DD.
No TT is perfect and fit for all users! If dynamics is of utmost important to you when choosing a TT, the Salvation will not disappoint! If finesse is important to you, then you should find a way to audition the Salvation before committing.
For me, if I could only have one TT, the Salvation would not be my top choice. Although I wouldn't feel too deprived if I could only have it! On the other hand, it is a very good TT to have for the right music / mood!
Of course, this is only IMHO, and YMMV! |
And in what ways does would it sonically resemble a slate-based Lenco? For all I know you may be correct, but what is the basis for your comparison between these two? One is slate, the other machined brass and steel or alu. One drives the platter via an idler wheel placed in the vertical position, the other drives the platter via a tiny diameter wheel at the rim. One uses an inverted magnetic bearing, the other uses any of several types of conventional bearing. Etc. Otherwise, they are exactly alike.
I do love my Lenco, by the way. |
Thekong, Could you please elaborate on your comment? In what ways do you think the Salvation rim drive is compromised? |
It is ok, everyone has their own preference!
Just like me, I feel the Salvation is more or less like a modified Lenco with slate plinth and upgrade bearing. A true bargain at its price, excellent in certain area, but compromised in others!
It is certainly a good choice for someone who likes the characters of a modified Lenco, but lacks the necessary DIY skills, like me! |
Keep in mind, Dover didn't like it much, apparently. |
Lewm, thank you for the detailed description! I was looking at some photos, and as you said, that DIN connector resembles the normal DIN found on most other tonearms, but I couldnt tell the size of the pins. Now, it is clear!
I will certainly see if I can really get one of these rare gems! |
Dentdog, that's frustrating news. Don't fret, there must be a solution. Have you emailed Vic? |
Thekong, The OEM Kenwood phono ICs are terminated on the tonearm side with a plug that in its design resembles the standard DIN, but the female receptors are each about 2-3 mm in diameter, as compared to a standard DIN plug, where they are about 1 mm in diameter. This plug screws on to the base of the vertical shaft of the tonearm, for further security. The male pins housed within the vertical shaft are likewise sized to fit the female receptors. Everything is gold plated. I am sure that the intent was to create a large contact area and to provide a secure connection via the screw mount. However, IMO, skinny pins sound better. No pins, i.e., a straight wire from the headshell to the phono stage sounds best of all, IMO. The wiring in the cable and in the tonearm is Litz type, which was very much in vogue back in the early 80s. This is no reason at all not to jump on an L07D if you can find one that is in good order. None of these issues are beyond fixing pretty easily. |
Dover,
Thanks you for mentioning the Callas kit for ther Verdier. A simple, yet effective, solution to the problem! |
The huge pins of the DIN-type connector are really not optimal for signal transfer, Hi Lewm, Why is that? Is that the standard DIN connector as seen on most tonearm, or is it a different type? There is a L07D which I may be able to get my hands on, so just want to learn more about it. Thanks! |
Richardkrebs,
Thank you for your suggestion. I have been well acquainted with the Verdier for over 20 years from the original Granito to the current model. I am well aware of the many modifications that can substantially improve the performance. The Verdier was purchased not because it was required, but simply as a second deck to play with. The Final Audio VTT1 is far far superior.
If the Verdier was my primary TT then all that I would retain would be the platter, bearing and magnets. The Callas kit, a new plinth with proper energy path to ground, rigid feet & rigid arm mounts would be implemented along with a better motor and motor controller.
As an aside, I was cleaning the stereo whilst listening to LA4 Just Friends last night. I decided to clean the Final Audio TT including the top of the motor and silk thread drive. Surprisingly there was no drop off in speed as I cleaned the thread & motor pulley whilst playing an LP. I doubt there are many belt/thread or DD TT's that could accomplish this. |
As regards one's subjective impression of the L07D, some have also observed that there is substantial benefit to be had by installing some shielding between the motor and the LP. I am one of those. In addition, an Achilles' heel of the design (but not nearly as fatal as was Achilles' heel to Achilles) is the tonearm wiring. The huge pins of the DIN-type connector are really not optimal for signal transfer, and the internal wiring is Litz type, love it or not, and I don't. Also, the RCA connectors at the ends of the wiring are not nearly up to modern TOTL RCAs. I changed mine to silver Eichmann Bullet connectors. But I would really like to bypass the connector at the other end, between the tonearm and the Kenwood interconnects. The tonearm itself, I think, is quite fine if these other items were attended to. |
Dover.
In private correspondence I have had with CT0517, he has told me that there much by way of set up of the Verdier that is not at first apparent. This to realise its full performance potential.
Perhaps you could contact him directly and compare notes? |
Finally hooked up the analog, Trans-Fi, Clearaudio Maestro and BAT VKP 10 SE.
I would like to tell all of you how wonderful it sounds but have some problems.
For one, hum, no matter how I play with the ground from phono pre. It also sounds waxy, not as deep and defined as the CD player.
Now the BAT was sent in for upgrades, new caps and transformers.I do understand burn in but it has a long way to go.
The hum only appears when the stylus touches the platter.
The leads are balanced, straight to the preamp.
Any ideas? |
I'm curious if ttweights had experience with any tonearm on L-07D other than the stock Kenwood TA-07J unipivot. IME the Trans-Fi Terminator sounds superb on the L-07D, and may be a spoiler in comparing the L-07D to the rim-drive tables. |
I have no direct experience with TT Weights tt's, and therefore no opinion on the matter, but there are 2 or 3 owners who have complained repeatedly on this forum about speed instability problems. We are not seeing such reports from owners of the Salvation, or from owners of L07Ds for that matter.
Onkyo PXM100 is a pretty neat turntable, but $20,000 seems an unlikely price to have to pay for one, when SP10 Mk3's in fully restored condition go for about $12K to $15K. Not that the cost matters. |
Digital file creation of the TT is fairly common these days. Why not publish a digital file of a particular track (partial track to avoid violation of copyright)? Select some piece of classical music and publish it.
So many people have analog-to-digital and DACs they could judge for themselves. Aside from tonal characteristics of cartridges and tonearms, the overall turntable performance should be evidently clear.
Plus, it would provide even more to discuss and argue...more entertainment. |
Has anyone compared these three rim drives: Salvation, TTWeights, VPI? |
Interesting I have had both an L07 KENWOOD and also the other very famous table the ONKYO PX100M.
I sold the ONKYO for 20K but it was not worth the money for pure sound but it is a collector table and I restored it and machined a brand new platter.
The LO7 cannot touch the ONKYO PXM 100 (copper platter/gunmetal)and the ONKYO is good (they go for $20K)
(Information link on ONKYO) http://www.audioscope.net/onkyo-px100m-p-2083.html
They are good but not nearly as good as current rim drive :-)))
Speed is great....but sorry to burst your bubble but they are great but not compared to a current rim drive table around 5-8 K.
Food for thought.... |
Tms, I'm finding an uncanny synergy btwn the Salvation w/new magnetic bearing, Terminator w/most recent Tomahawk wand mod, and Soundsmith Straingauge cart, reconciling what can be disparate sound qualities not often found together in components. Accurate, but soulful. Transparent, but solid. Ethereal, but grounded.
I'm sure your Soundsmith Hyperion will get there too. |
Sorry, mine has been down since I did the mag bearing upgrade, due to a move over the past few months. I'm building a new listening room, but hope to have a temporary one set up in a week or two. Hopefully I can get a good dose of the upgraded Salvation/Terminator and Hyperion II soon.
Tom |
Kind of a moot point, since the Final Audio is no longer available, the Mk3 has gotten very expensive, and the L07D is rare to find. Plus the latter two are now very old and typically have maintenance issues. Meantime, the Salvation is available any day to one and all for a relatively modest price, brand new with no need for restoration or worries about NLA parts. |
Any chance of further comments on the Salvation/Terminator? Esp from current users. |
No opinion on Final Audio, but I cannot help but remark that I have a lot of experience with the Verdier, altho not in my home system, and I definitely would choose/have chosen the L07D over the Verdier sound, which is very open, very nice, but not as coherent, or I hate to say it, well-timed, as with the L07D. Yet the L07D gives up nothing in the sense of open-ness and musicality. This is my L07D, with a EMI shield interposed between the motor and the platter sheet. (My sense is the same for my SP10 Mk3 vs Verdier.) This shows that Dover and I have different systems and different versions of audio Nirvana. |
Dover, I appreciate your honest testimony/review and thus confirming The Verdier´s ability as a true class TT. I never doubted it though, namely due to true maglev (non-thrust pad).
Following your logic, from SP10Mk3/LO7D and The Verdier to The Final Audio VTT-1 the question is: where would we put The Salvation ? |
Lew is right: the mass ratio of platter/base could be inverse. So I would put the whole TT on metal spikes and a very heavy slate. But wouldn´t touch the maglev. |
On an earlier Verdier I preferred the ball in situ - more high frequency extension more grounded and better timing. Hi Dover, Thank you for your report! These are exactly the differences I have expected, and I would very much like to see Vic implement this in his Salvation! I will appreciate for your further comment once you have tried this on your new Verdier! But my guess is that similar differences exist even with the sprung feet. I am no engineer, but I think it is not that difficult, or expensive, to make an adjustable bearing shaft for the Salvation. I also agree with you on the MDF base and armboard! If I have the Verdier, I would change the base into a solid piece of slate, get rid of the sprung feet, and put the whole unit on a pneumatic table instead, pretty much exactly as Lewm has suggested! |
But look at that huge platter and magnets and look at the base (granito or no granito, but thanks for the reminder about granito). To me it cries out for more mass in the base; I would think you want the center of gravity to be well below the platter. |
Harold - The Verdier I tested is the same as Ct0517 except Ct0517 has the granito base. The motor is quite weedy - deliberately so, but many owners mod the motors and/or use aftermarket motors. It appears to be more reliant on inertia. I would rank the deck above the SP10mk3/L07D but below the Final Audio VTT1. The Verdier has a more cohesive sound when set up correctly, instruments/notes are rich and ripe, but the DD's have more accurate speed at the cost of some disaggregation of the music to my ears. The Final Audio VTT1 has the best of both. |
Actually I was referring to this La Platine by an Agoner:
http://cgim.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/vs.pl?vevol&1301604425&viewitem&o3
I would take his TT very seriously. |
Re your criticism of the Verdier: That's what I have heard too, from users. The platter and magnets are a bit too massive for the "plinth", which is really just a flat piece of either MDF or granite. (I thought granite, but you've got one so you should know.) That coupled with the spongy feet causes the structure to be unstable; it wants to tip to one side or another and the rotation of the massive platter acts like a gyroscope. This should have been an easy issue to correct; substitute spongy feet for solid feet or pneumatic ones with a low resonant frequency and increase the mass of the lower structure to move the center of gravity closer to the shelf. But Mr Verdier is a traditionalist, to say the least. |
I'm back in the room, boys! Well, for Salvation/Terminator to even be mentioned in the same breath as the L07D, it must be doing SOMETHING right.
As you all know, I'm no tech head, just just trying to interpret what Vic has said to me face to face, and via his website.
The magnetic bearing is bringing an interesting quality, which was initially frustrating, but now I realise is a major advantage - literally song to song on the same lp I can perceive different ambience/recording quality, more so than any other lp spinner I've auditioned. First of all I hated this, but as I realised this was a function of greater detail resolution, and just as importantly, reduction of colouration from the tt imparting itself, I can really concur w/Harold that the tt/arm is a true "time machine" to transport y/self and (my summing up) "open window" to listen thru. |
Lewm/Thekong Following your interest in the Verdier, I pulled one out of the cupboard and set it up over the weekend for a quick listen. It is about 2 yrs old - so current version. It has the black lacquered base and arm boards. Lewm, before you ask "have you really" - here is a photo for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogRZSjnyhasThe Verdier bearing is a conventional sleeved bearing in the horizontal plane and magnetic in the vertical plane. The ball and thrust pad is supplied as standard with the deck but the use of the ball & thrust pad is optional. If you install the ball & thrust pad the height of the bearing shaft is adjustable from under the TT so that the ball is only just touching and most of the weight is still borne by the magnetic bearing. I mounted an Audiomods arm and Goldring moving coil (was mounted on Technics DD )on the Verdier for an interim listen. The Verdier was a considerable level of performance above the SME20/SMEV/Lyra combination we had side by side for comparison. The Verdier had more punch, lower noise floor, better dynamics, better timing and was more transparent. It is quite impressive that the magnets support such a heavy platter. There is residual vertical movement in the platter if you press down but it is quite stiff. At some stage I will transfer the SME V/Lyra onto the Verdier for a direct comparison and try the ball & thrust pad again. On an earlier Verdier I preferred the ball in situ - more high frequency extension more grounded and better timing. The earlier Verdier that I had listened to had rigid feet whereas the current has sprung feet. My only criticism of the Verdier is the plinth and armloads are pretty mickey mouse - they appear to be painted mdf and very lightweight. The Verdier motor has settings for rubber belt and thread drive. The rubber belt supplied is about 3/16" thick, round profile, and I was disturbed by it's propensity to vibrate, no matter how I tensioned the belt. However it still sounded ok, much better than the SME20 but not up to the Final Audio VTT-1 that I normally run. |
Dover.
What?
read my post again.
re LO7D
FYI, The mechanical brake acts on the platter itself.
With the platter removed, the sub platter raises up and contacts the plastic targets I mentioned. This is the apparently locked bearing that both Lew and I observed. The sub platter becomes free to rotate manually by gently pushing down on it.
Who said anything about powering the motor without the platter attached?
What the designers did with this TT is very cool indeed. |
Yes, the La Platine can be used without the ball bearing in fully magnetic levitation mode! However, instead of for security reasons, I believe the ball bearing is there for establishing the loop rigidity as mentioned by Richard.
Apparently, Continuum does the same in their flagship Caliburn. According to Michael Fremers review, it used magnets to take care of most of the platters weight, but leaving around 6 lbs of load at the ball bearing for mechanical grounding.
Actually, the only reason that deter me from upgrading the Salvation with this latest magnetic bearing is the (at least in my perception) lack of loop rigidity. If it was implemented like the La Platine and Caliburn, I wouldn't hesitate! |
Interesting, what you say about the Verdier. I do know there are two completely different models, La Platine, and La Nouvelle Platine. I just read the assembly instructions for La Platine. They do apparently supply a "steel ball" which is installed in a well at the top of the vertical rod that accepts the platter, but then the manual says the ball is optional and recommends using no ball. This sure suggests the platter floats on the magnets, but I agree it's ambiguous. Apparently the ball is available for security. He does not say exactly why bother at all with the ball. Verdier is known to be a bit obscure, but I think the La Platine platter does float or can float. |
Dear Lewn, J.C. Verdier introduced La Platine 30+ years ago, right ? It´s maglev is basically the same as Vic´s, it´s vastly bigger and the spindle is fatter for a very heavy platter, it´s just a different implementation ? Also Kenwood/Clearaudio type hybrid bearing is available. Fine. We all understand that a perfect magnetically isolated spindle does not exist due to instability of the magnetic field in the horizontal plane.
Now this kind of maglev, both Verdier´s and Vic´s, is a true maglev. The inverted sleeve bearing is oiled, actually that thin oil layer separates the metallic/delrin/nylon surfaces. Please note that the vertical very strong magnetic field takes most of the weight. The spindle is touching its environment very slightly thru oil layer. The tolerances must be very small to achieve extreme smooth spinning though. And the spindle actually does not touch the pushings inside the spindle well, just oil layer. So La Platine started all this ? No wonder why so many Platine owners here in AudiogoN Universe are happy with the maglev as such. Hats off to Monsieur Verdier.
I´m glad you will buy a Salvation ;) |
quote] I've played around with the Verdier tt, the grand-daddy of tt's with fully magnetic vertical suspensions.[/quote]
Hi Lewm, not sure if there are different versions of the Verdier, but the latest ones do include a ball bearing, so not really true magnetic suspension!
If I understand correctly, the Verdier can be used without the ball bearing, but it seems Mr Verdier has chosen to include it in the latest version. |
Peter,
I would suggest, given the amount of intellectual interest you seem to have in this, and the number of turntables you now employ, that you purchase one. At the price I really do think, on the chance that it doesn't float your boat, you could find a buyer.
Of course there's some self interest here. It's thought here that you would be an extremely impartial evaluator and that's valuable to all of us audiophile nuts. What's more, you may find it a suitable, particularly on those opening and closing grooves.
As for myself, the approach of the last cut of an album gives me a dose of a~nervosa. I'm not living with that. I do like the skepticism and following questions you pose. Always smart to investigate the other side of the coin.
I would gladly provide you the opportunity to review the Trans~fi but being swamped at work keeps me close to home.
Warmest regards,
Dentdog |
03-20-14: Richardkrebs
Lew.
I to was alarmed with an apparently locked bearing when I received a LO7D to upgrade.
There are small plastic targets on the motor coil side of the PCB. These prevent the rotor from contacting the coils when no platter is installed.
The idea is so outside the box and likely predates the current crop of magnetic de-loading bearings.
Not so out of the box as you claim. The motor must not be operated without the platter load or it can be damaged. It would be prudent to read the manufacturers advice in the L07D owners manual before tinkering with this TT. The manufacturer also advises that the L07D has both mechanical and electrical brakes that are engaged or disengaged depending on the power and operating switches and the platter should not be rotated when the mechanical brakes are engaged or damage will occur. |
Dear Lewn, I have never taken acid, not even in the wild seventies... I don´t need it. Music itself has been my nectar since little boy ;) And I have never before been so confident about my TT. The Salvation maglev simply nails it. This is the breakthrough in my system after all these years.
And you are absolutely right, now it´s time to celebrate !
I´ll have a drink on all magnificent Kenwood and all Salvation TTs. Cheers !
Excuse me clumsy English as it´s not my mother language. I´ll try to explain later the function of the Salvation maglev how I see it. It´s very hard, like Theory of Relativity. D |
Peter, the magnets are situated at the base of the 2 to 3-inch vertical shaft upon which the platter rides, and they are in the form of a collar around the vertical shaft that looks to be less than an inch in distance from inner to outer boundary of the collar (like a large fender washer). I suggest you look at the excellent photos on the website. Anyway, the magnetic forces are in play way below the surface platter (at least 3 inches, at a guess) and only in the immediate vicinity of the spindle, i.e., under the LP label but not extending out under the playing surface. |
Perhaps this is a naive question, but do the magnets that levitate the platter effect the cartridge in any way? Maybe the platter is shielded, but I've seen a cartridge with strong magnets smash into the spindle of an SP 10 due to the magnetic attraction. The result was a bent cantilever. I would think that if any magnetic attraction got through the platter, it would effect how the signal is generated in the cartridge. |
I had a look at the trans Fi web site.
This is a very nice TT and exceptional value for the modest cost . Knowing a little about machining expenses, I would say that it is an amazing achievement. Very much like the raw design. No unnecessary bling like many contemporary TTs
Further to the mag bearing. In the assembly instructions it says
" Confirm platter is levitated by pushing down & watching spring back"
This would appear to confirm my earlier comments about vertical compliance. Is this a problem? The reviews of the mag bearing would suggest not. |
I just went to the website where there is a crystal clear drawing showing how the maglev works. There are also photos to show step by step how to convert an older Salvation to maglev. Without question, the maglev works "only" in the vertical plane. The horizontal plane is maintained by a long heavy duty inverted sleeve bearing, which is oiled, not too different from the Verdier, if memory serves. I gotta say I am becoming more and more impressed myself with this tt, mainly due to the quality of construction and engineering at the given price point. I was already an admirer from afar of the Terminator tonearm. In theory, I do not care for rim drive, but again Vic looks to have dealt with most of the major issues. We should all buy one. Very cool. |
Harold, I don't remember for sure where we were with the Salvation; does it use magnetics in both the vertical and horizontal plane, or not? If yes, do you mean to say that the spindle or vertical shaft from the center of the platter touches nothing? I just cannot imagine that that could work well, but especially with a rim-drive, where there is a force applied in the horizontal plane that would make the platter want to move in the direction of the drive wheel. So, I must not understand how it works. Can I find out more on the website???
Ummm... Have you been drinking the same Kool-Aid as Spirit, when you liken a turntable, any turntable, to the Theory of Relativity? But I see you winked. Good. |
Dentdog, Wise you saved your old albums. So did I and am very addicted to vinyl, just recently. The Salvation is more than a turntable. Vic have invented an analog time machine, to go for a journey back in time. ;) What a great pleasure, isn´t it. Especially the Golden Age. Digital still has a hard job to outperform good old Analog, despite its 3 decades evolution. |
I just wanted to point out to people with Kenwood Lo7d and similar turntables that have a magnet to unload the spindle
this magnet serves 2 purposes... one it unloads(weight) the spindle/platter 2 this magnet serves for a much reduction in torque ripple (smooths out rotation)...
I have 3 of the very Rare Teak tn400 maglev turntables as these were the first to incorporate this system this was done in the early 1970's
Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward |
One more OT comment: I've played around with the Verdier tt, the grand-daddy of tt's with fully magnetic vertical suspensions. The magnets used are quite huge, as anyone can see by inspection. If you push down on the platter surface, there is quite a lot of resistance to depression. I doubt that a force sufficient to cause deflection of the platter is ever seen during actual use. And of course the horizontal bearing is a standard mechanical type and is quite massive. BUT some who are critics of the Verdier have cited deflection as an issue. We certainly don't want bouncing platters. |
Dear Lewn, Thanks for your very informative answer, now I understand what exactly is the Kenwood maglev: it´s like Clearaudio´s. After my very recent experience I also exactly understand what´s happening in the bearing, both mechanically and sonically. Very rigid link between TA pivot and bearing, despite its "partly" maglev. The maglev takes most of the platter´s weight, but not all. Hard metal tip´s contact to thrust pad is still very solid, so basically it´s a mechanical bearing. Must sound fantastic. Congrats.
However, one can´t stop Evolution as it keeps on going...
The Salvation maglev is an antithesis to any mechanical bearing, as far as I know. And this kinda true maglev quite literally takes the whole idea of TT bearing to higher level. I´m running this kind of a maglev, my implementation is different but the end result, both technically and sonically is basically just the same.
However, I must point out that the heavy Salvation platter compared to my lighter platter gives even more better performance. I fully understand this without having not listened to Vic´s TT.
The answer lies in a very dense & thus strong magnetic field.
This makes platter´s spinning very solid, there´s absolutely no wobbling, even in the microscopic level, I feel for sure after having heard this in my own system. I can assure that I must use much force to apply pressure on the spindle and it certainly does not keep bouching up & down after a push.
Evolution has come to the point that we are facing a new world in Analog Audio. This is as revolutionary as Einstein´s theory of Relativity a hundred years ago. A new idea, a new world. Welcome to 2014´s physics ;)
Oh yes, and astronomers just found gravitational particles. The Universe is much larger than we have known so far `Ö´
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