I can tell you that I can crush all Marantz and Denon surround and integrated amps with ease.
I can achieve this with using Onkyo surround receivers. The difference are huge. Going back to Marantz and Denon with Monitor Audio you will loose all depth. These are the most common brands in the Netherlands. They also loose in sharpness in focus compared to the Onkyo
I have even proven that I beat a Marantz KI integrated of 3000 dollar with a Onkyo 5010 with Pro. It was superior in every single aspect you Judge an amp for.
I use these Onkyo surround amps also often for people who only play stereo. I can demo that my configuration wins in every single part you Judge a amp for against others.
- stunning 3d stage with a lot of depth and width. Going back to Marantz and Denon it is all gone.
- Better timing and more control compared to Denon and Marantz.
_ a much sharper individual focus.
- even in sound it is better than both brands with Audyssey
- a superior integration in every room based on the acoustics.
- much better articulation of voices and details.
* This is so much fun to do and compare. This is what I said; it is so easy to win it. |
"The new surround Onkyo receivers are in stereo a lot better than the ones of last year. They also will give stage depth.
In the tests I did between the old and new Onkyo receivers. I only found out that in Multi channel with Audyssey the stage is deeper an wider. And you hear also more decay. They use better capacitors, these give a much more musical sound. The individual focus of instuments and voices with the new ones is also a lot better."
Bo, do you use the amplifier sections of the Onkyo receivers or just the preamp? |
I give you a few important tips; You need to use a tripod and you need to work at mm precision. :)
The first few times I did a measurment with Audyssey I thought; I understand the benefit, but I also hear the limitations. So I started to do it differently.
Other people can try it out as well. You are not a mongol, are ya?
The new surround Onkyo receivers are in stereo a lot better than the ones of last year. They also will give stage depth.
In the tests I did between the old and new Onkyo receivers. I only found out that in Multi channel with Audyssey the stage is deeper an wider. And you hear also more decay. They use better capacitors, these give a much more musical sound. The individual focus of instuments and voices with the new ones is also a lot better.
For me personally without Audyssey Pro I never can create the level I have. I will use the 5509 longer. I also will go on for some time with the Integra 80.3. |
06-17-14: Bo1972
The 929 without my way of XT-32 is huge. You have a much less sharp focus, a more clinical sound, less dynamics, less resolution, les decay. And in your post earlier today, I have my own way of measurment. This I won't share. So what's the point? Isn't the purpose of the forum to share information allowing others to learn. I guess you just want everyone to know what it is like to live in your universe. |
That's my point..."Without Audyssey the stage is less wide and deep." So, if I compared speakers with Audyssey to speakers without Audyssey, all things being equal, the speakers with Audyssey will have a wider and deeper soundstage. |
The 929 without my way of XT-32 is huge. You have a much less sharp focus, a more clinical sound, less dynamics, less resolution, les decay.
The new Onkyo will not have Audyssey anymore. But...they sound a lot more musical. For people with less insight it is more easy to get a good result.
But Audyssey can give you an even more stunning sound. Without Audyssey the stage is less wide and deep. I Always try to use every single tool tot the max. That is why I test so much. To find out what is possible and were are the limitations.
You need to use all the good properties. And you have to limit the limitations as much as possible. |
The question is what would the system sound like without the Audyssey XT-32? |
I use also the Audioquest Slip cables a lot. They are very cheap, but mann they are awesome for not a lot of money. I used the Slip 14/4 for the bi amp configuration with the 929. 7 dollar for 1 metre. |
Hey Bob,
The S8 is a hell of a speaker. It has won many tests here in europe. I don't think it has any competition for the money. For example the cabinet is 2 cm thick. The Bolt through drive system make it even all better. They use stunning crossovers as well.
In the last few weeks I sold one pair in stereo with the Onkyo TX-NR 929 with Audyssey XT-32. I used for amps of the 929. Onkyo will deliver the full capacity of the transformer is using only those 4 amps. The control is stunning. Mann, I created a stunning 3 d sound. The low freq were stunning in drive and in speed.
I also sold a system with S8, S centre, SFX and AW12 sub. Also with a 929. The person who bought went nuts. He said: the music is playing 3-4 metres behind the wall. That is not possible, but I hear it. So I said: I don't ask you to understand it. Just enojoy the music and quality.
I have my own way of measurment. This I won't share. What I can tell is that I measure at different places and Heights compared to Audyssey does. This way creates a much more musical, dynamic sound with more resolution ans a sharper focus. With Audyssey Pro I can let a 5010 sound like a Class A amp. It is like a transformation in sound.
You need to understand that a source can F..up the whole 3D sound easilly. When a source has not the property for depth, it is F...gone. When a client buys a 2D source, I will correct him. I bring in a 3 D source. That is a hard way, but I want things to be clear. Because in my world there is no room for error.
For cables the same story. You need to understand and be aware of the properties your cables owns. These will have a big influence on the sound and image.
Your welcome,
Bobby |
Bo,
Why don't you give a good example of a nice system you know to give great 3D synergy?? For example, can it be done with say a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 8's...a Onyko receiver/OR seperates of some sort?? what cables & PC's etc...etc...
Since you have been putting together these systems for so long, what would be a great 3D system that a blue collar worker could easily afford & put together IYO??
Any examples?? You can keep it simple. Just a smart little system that would sound great.
Thanks,
Bob |
I hope it helps for you. Audio is about experimenting, that is for sure. In 16 years of time you see how easy people make mistakes in audio.
These mistakes are often based on properties which do not fit well. In my country you have a wedsite for Multi-channel. This is a funplace for people who are extreme good in making mistakes. They really don't know what they are doing. |
This just, a paparazzi exclusive of Bo at workSorry Bo. I'm just thinking that some humor might help get people off your back. That and maybe if you would just cut down on repeating yourself and maybe listen to what others might have to say on occasion. You never know, there still might be something new to learn out there. |
Again, you talk without listening. I said in my last post that you have no clue what is currently in my system, and you do not. You could guess again, but you would be wrong again. There is not one thing on my system page that is still in my room. Does that help? You are right about a couple of things. Audio is about experimenting and system synergy. This is nothing new. I am continually doing so within the confines of my budget. It is the only way I can find out what works together and what doesn't. I just don't understand why you feel that you are the only one that knows these things and are the only one that can get these things right. |
A Denon source with Classe. This is a high level of insight in audio. Audio is all about properties. They need to fit togheter. Denon does not fit with Classe that well. I have sold these brands for over 6 years of time.
Try a different source...... |
Bo, you have no clue what my system currently consists of, nor all of the high end gear that has passed through my room. Go ahead and believe what ever you wish, but you are wrong. It is clear you have never heard the Intuitive Design Summit, nor do you have any clue as to the design innovation that went into them. Let me just say that they will hold their own with any monitor I have ever listened to, with many of them far more expensive than the Summit. All of your blather makes you sound spiteful and childish, not knowledgeable. Go ahead and continue Boviating, I can use the laughs. It is clear that Bo doesn't know what Bo doesn't know. |
I used to think the word was bloviating. Webster has it wrong and should change it to Boviating. It certainly fits Bo. |
Onhwy61, looks like N-dimensional sound may have gone over his head. |
I worked for a company who also had a pro division. They also made live recordings. I liked to go with them during recordings.
Wolfie our Rel specialist is the one with the knowledge. Respect for you Wolfie!! |
An interesting position in these forums is the one taken by somebody certain about sound he hasn't actually heard. In my live sound job I've encountered so-called experts here and there, and a few times they've been presented as an artist's personal "live mixing expert" where I happily allow them to mix a show using gear I've assembled. Suffice to say that experience generally shows, as does the lack of same. One young dude (the artist, of course, insisted he be used for her set) had a degree in something and a studio job someplace, but was so clueless about how to run a modern mixing board he managed to get the worst sound ever for a major artist at this particular concert series I was regularly mixing...I noted this for future events and decided to take the wheel back before being steered into the rocks again...ever. A favorite quote from someplace: "Seek the truth, but avoid those claiming to know it"...or something like that. My decades as a professional musician, audio geek, and live sound mixer doesn't make my ears any more special, and all our brains work differently when percieving things which makes any absolutes in art a flawed concept...I know people from the Netherlands, been there a few times, and haven't met anybody even remotely similar to the silly and pretentious gasbag we know as Bo...maybe if we keep him here he can't do as much damage elsewhere, but that's wishful thinking. |
I also had a little harshness in the mid-high freq by using Audyssey Pro in the beginning. I could not solve it, there was no information to solve it.
I started to read articles about human hearing. Here I did find the freq. I needed to adjust. At the end I solved it completely. With target curves you can adapt it.
Audio is about trying things out yourself. Don't be affraid to fail. At the end it will give you a better endresult. |
It's possible that even you could achieve N-Dimensional sound with your equipment. It's not particularly dependent upon specific brands or designs of equipment. It's about setup and the use of logically derived synergies (LSD). It's been my experiences that superficial synergies while beguiling are detrimental to long-term satisfaction because they don't address micro-dimensional instabilities (MDI) which unchecked give a hard plastic like sheen to sound. Based upon my decades of audio experience I have found simple ways to cancel out MDI induced plasticity and reach greater levels of LSD. Once you start working with the LSDs N-Dimensional sound is just a kiss away, just a kiss away...
It's about what I know and how I use it. Anybody could do it if they only took the decades of time and research that I have put into it. |
"Tell us about N-dimensional sound....
where it can be heard...."
All the usual places, but only 4 at a time. |
Tell us about N-dimensional sound....
where it can be heard.... |
I was recently told of an unknown speaker by a highly respectable audio componet designer, He swears that these are the speakers all others should be measured against, Vapor audio speakers!, check out the web site, I did, I must say, I was impressed! |
Metralla,
That was really hilarious. We all should be using more "I".
:-))))) |
Your problem is that your still stuck in the 3rd Dimension Bo. It seems that others on this forum, such Onhwy61 and Metralla are light years ahead of you.
Hell, even I told you last year that that when I heard Wedding Bell Blues and Up, Up and Away that I truly heard the music of the 5th Dimension!
Did you listen to me then Bo? Have you ever heard the music of the 5th Dimension like I have? Probably not. |
You can give it many words as you want. When people still think that it is about me. Then you are F....stuppid!
The essential thoughts are about a better sound for everyone.
Please stop crying, and learn to think further......
Audio Always will be about the most thrilling sound. And the sound what gives you joy for every single day you use it.
When shops focus more on quality instead of more shit then people wil get a better sound.
When distributers will work more togheter instead of only giving a demo based on political choices then people can hear more quality.
When magazines and websites about audio will give a more open an honest view, people will get more quality.
There are many ways to create a better endresult. A 3 dimensional image is just one.
Audio is like a formula one car, improving it on and on. This never stops. That is why I Always will keep on testing and comparing. This improves your skills and insight in audio.
With this information you get give your clients a better endresult. Even mongols in audio can improve their skills. But when they still are F. lazy, nothing is going to change.
So F...off and stop crying. Audio is a personal hobby, so you have to do it yourself most of the time.
I don't ask you to do what I say. I just give some thoughts you can listen at. Nothing more, nothing less. |
06-15-14: Onhwy61 wrote: and I'm now experimenting with N-dimensional sound. Excellent post, but that's not quite how it goes. You have to personify it much more strongly by saying: "I'm now experimenting with what I call N-dimensional sound". Please refer to the Bo1972 posting guidelines: "Or what I call TOTAL SOUND." "what I call 2-dimensional" "what I call 3-dimensional sound" "I call the sound stealth" "This is what I call intimate sound." Regards, |
"I've been involved in audio since the mid-1970s and I have evovled beyond 3D, past4D and I'm now experimenting with N-dimensional sound." - Onhwy61
How about that, Bo! |
Bo my wife asked what I wanted for my birthday. Because I already have 3D sound from my system I had asked her for a 3D television. I was very disappointed when I realized she purchased a 2D tv and called her a mongol. We are now splitting up . I thought you could truly appreciate that. Thanks. |
I can understand some of the younger audiophiles being obsessed with achieving a 3D soundstage because that's all they know. I've been involved in audio since the mid-1970s and I have evovled beyond 3D, past 4D and I'm now experimenting with N-dimensional sound. Modern physics tells us that while we may only experience three physical dimensions plus time, there actually may exist multiple micro-dimensions. In most 2D or 3D capable systems these micro dimensions are uncorrelated and working against each other, but I have been able to assemble systems that align the sound properties of these micro-dimensions to achieve higher order N-dimensional sound. Not everybody can do this, but I with my extra decades of knowledge can.
I realize that I am beyond even the cutting edge of current audio reproduction and that many will dismiss my claims due to the petty jealousies endemic to the audiophile world, but I will not be deterred. Starting tonight I will be flooding the audiophile internet forums with my non-stop claims of how I can achieve N-dimensional sound. Once you've have an experience with the N-dimensional soundstage that I can produce you'll never go back to simple 3D sound again. Reality is much more real than you think it is and I will relentlessly tell you about it. I know more than you do and I want you to know it too. |
06-15-14: Bo1972
If you would have read more of my answers you would have know that it is not about me. And your last post is all about YOU and nothing else!! Congratulations, you may have set a record for using "I" the most times in a single post!! |
I will try to explain how it started why my focus is on 3D sound these days.
I started to work in audio in 1998. In the first years I was addicted to it. I went to many shows, distributers and other shops. You hear a lot. You remember the things you like.
In 1999 I bought the 802 Nautilus. I bought it because I loved the sharp individual focus. I knew it did not have a lot of depth, but for me the individuel focus was more important than depth.
We sold Avalon, and I liked the deep and wide stage a lot. But the individual focus of instruments and voices was of a much lower level than my 802N. It was not perfect either.
When you hear and test a lot your knowledge and insight in music and audio grows. Audio can become quite addictive. Also for me. You want more and better. After time I had it in my head what I wanted.
I wanted a big and wide stage, but within this wide and deep stage I wanted the same sharp and realistic focus of instruments as my B&W 800 Signature.
I thought about buying the B&W 800D. But after audition them a few times, I thought; Noooooo...I want a wide and deep stage as well. As a perfectionist you want more and better. It could not give me the thing I wanted.
In 2007 I started to sell Monitor Audio. I bought the whole Platinum series for the shop I worked. I had all the freedom to choose my own products.
These days Monitor Audio gives me the freedom to build a big and wide stage with a sharp and intimate focus within this stage.
When you test and compare all the time. You can create much easier a higher quality in sound.
My way of testing gives me the different properties each tool owns. When you understand and know the properties you can make combinations of tools togheter.
Tools togheter make a sound and stage. You can create it as you want it to become.
I use the properties of the brands I sell. Only these togheter can give me a wide and deep stage, a stunning sharp individual focus, blacks, resolution and an involving sound.
That it why I choose speakers, amps, sources, cables, conditioners who all can build a wide and deep stage.
Because I know that there are a lot more who do not have the quality to build this stage as I want it to be.
I am Always open for new products. I like to audition new audio. When it does not give the properties where I am looking for it is not interesting for me.
Until now I did not find a better way to create a higher endresult. For me it is very effective. But I only can speak for myself.
I understand that it is a lot different than others do. But that is who I am; different! |
"This is what others make from it. I want to wake up other people to give customers a better sound."
This is what I am talking about?? Tell us "HOW" we are supposed to achieve this?? Tell us what components & speakers you found to have that magical synergy and maybe some more suggestions as to cables & PC's that make all the magic 3D come together. (Rooms aside of coarse):o)
Thanks for any insight.
Bob |
If you would have read more of my answers you would have know that it is not about me.
This is what others make from it. I want to wake up other people to give customers a better sound.
The world of audio is big, I am just a minor fraction. People in audio have to focus more on quality instead of focussing on earning money.
Every single person deserves a sound to die for. The world of audio needs to change. This is why I write the way I write.
Just show what you can do.........
I hope people will get more emotion instead of a box! |
Bo,
Instead of your worn out continuous rant of how awesome you are, why don't you share some set up tips or any other thing that makes you so great compared to every one of us super inferior tin eared A-Piles!?!?!
There are now about 4000 lines of your awesomeness in a million different threads. What makes you the God of thunder & rock & roll of audio???
I'm sure you are longer than the unemployment line and harder than penitentiary steel as well. |
It is as it is. The audio world is a tough and egoistic world. Last year a few distributers came to congratulate me with my show.
But others were not that happy with it. It is a small world, everybody know eachother. A few days later a dstributer told me that a few distributers were not happy that I was at the show. My way of working is to beat others. In the past they were happy with me when I sold their products a lot. But now they see you as an enemy.
This I hate most in audio. Audio is in my world a free place where every person can show their skills and sound.
They have to beat me with sound, not with words. That is the most fair way to use audio.
I do consulting, that means I work in my whole country and even in foreign countries. In my country people want to work in their region. But we life in a free world! |
"People in this business know... that I can create a superior endresult compared to them. I do not have to proff this anymore. They know it!!"
Kindly do not lump me in with those who allegedly acknowledge and concede your claims.
Duke
dealer/manufacturer |
To be honest I use much harder words. I won't name them. People in this business know how I think about them.
I understand that they can get irritated by them. For some I am like a pain in the ass. But they also know that I can create a superior endresult compared to them. I do not have to proff this anymore. They know it!!
Maybe some more competion would be better for me. To win that easy from these mongols can get bored. |
With 320kb you still can have depth.
What I have seen in 7 years of time is that people ( many women included) enjoy music a lot more when it is being played 3 dimensional. They also spend more time on listening for a longer period.
The level of quality and intensity in how music is being played has a big influence on our emotion. 3 dimensional sound has a positive influence on our emotion.
For me is seeing happy people with smiles on their faces an important part why I am stil in this business.
And when 3 dimensional sound is an important part to create this, so I will continue to do it this way. |
I like you Bo,
Down with mongols - up with 3D! |
Bo,
It is sad to say but 2D sound is still marketed and sold because of the highly compressed iPod/iPhone/MP3/SMART phone music that is still dominant in the market today. Selling to the masses nets more profit, period.
Bill |
Hahahahahaha....3D stage is definitely not rocket science!!
But the thing is that mongols in audio still sell 2 dimensional standard audio.
It is my personal opinion that you must be a fool still to sell 2 dimensional sound. |
I have had enough myself! It's not rocket science to get great sound like he makes it seem! Geez the difference between 2D & 3D can be a simple tweak of 1/16"-1/8" on the speakers. Big Whoop!?!?!? Along with a little careful system matching, even a cave man could do it!
Now where did I put that damn box of Crispy Kreams???
Thanks,
Tall & Slim in Texas,
Bob |
With each post Bo, you go a little further beyond the pale and over the edge of reality. Not that I expect you to know this.
So, not only are you a self-proclaimed audio god but you now tell us you have the body of Adonis too. And most us are just fat slobs. I quote you again...
"People were a little affraid when I came into their room. Most people in audio are fat. But I am big with a atletic figure. It provokes some people. But who cares."
This is now getting beyond even audio. I wonder what part of your anatomy we will hear about next that is oversized like your head?
Come on everyone...how can anyone take this guy seriously after a post like this? |
That would be a bad thing. I want audio to get to a higher endresult. This only can be achieved with many people all over the world who do the same.
There need to be more dedication and devotion of those who work in audio. Togheter only you can create a better sound quality for customers. |
"People were a little affraid when I came into their room. Most people in audio are fat. But I am big with a atletic figure."
Achilles from the movie "Troy" would not be afraid of you.
:-) |
I see, Bo. But, there are others who can and do get a higher quality sound, not just you. |
In my country it is the same. In the past it was the same too. People were a little affraid when I came into their room. Most people in audio are fat. But I am big with a atletic figure. It provokes some people. But who cares.
They knew they will know if it is good or bad. You get what it is.I have proven for years that I can create a much higher endresult in sound. Some people hate it. It is not my problem that they cannot achieve the same level.
They have the same possibilities. Audio is about comparing. The one with the best and most convincing sounds wins.
Many people are extreme f..lazy overhere. It says a lot about them. This makes it easy to win. Why they do not start to invest time in testing and looking for new techniques?
The people who like me have the best sets.....lol :) it is that simple! |
One thing's for sure, you either love or hate Bo. There's no middle ground! lol. |
