@avanti1960
Appreciate your input. I’m running Focal Sopras with 89db sensitivity, so fairly high. Which might have exacerbated the gain issue.
It’s actually your posts that go back a few years that got me looking into the Cary. You were very instrumental in my research. Also your many posts about your old Rogue and 12AU7 tubes. Followed your lead on a lot of that. I still have the RP-7 and will be keeping it as a back up. I love the looks of the Cary and it was not an easy decision to go in another direction. I might still be tempted to go for a used Cary to try out if the timing is right. For now I’ve thrown my lot in with the Spatial Audio Raven and hope to get in a post about it in the near future. The icing on the cake for that unit is a full function remote. Thanks.
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Dang, typed a bunch of stuff and the site freaked out! Not going to spend more time trying to deal with the picture upload (archaic), but basically I get ~2/16th of a rotation for XLR from 0 to 68 dB at 15', and a a bit more than 3/16th for RCA.
If I want to use volume on the Cary with XLR I set -46dB on the goldpoint pots (dump 99.5% of signal to ground - linear??) and it sits around 2pm, so 1/2 a rotation. I need a scope to see what is really going on, gut says that can't be linear but only measurements can be trusted here.
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@steakster - Thanks for the link.
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@jaybe
one more thing related to the SLP 05 gain settings- speaker efficiency. with my 90db Spendor towers they sound best with the RCA lower output connections into my 29 db McIntosh amp.
with my less sensitive Dynaudio towers they sound best with the full gain using the balanced connections.
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@testrun My preamp is made by a boutique manufacturer - which also has a bulky remote control. I only use the volume buttons. I replaced it with this slim universal learning remote control. It learns the code by pointing the two remotes at each other - as per the instructions. I liked it so much that I bought a few more for my TV and HT receiver. They’ve been working flawlessly for over 6 years. Just replace the AAA batteries once a year. Since the price is so cheap, the tariffs shouldn’t be an issue.
- - - -
This replacement is for infrared remotes. Not Bluetooth remotes.
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@jaybe
The SLP-05 using balanced outs to the Bryston at 23db gain should work out well, no upgrade needed.
I use the L-R pots at about 60% or so, just to trim a bit for L-R balance.
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@testrun , I am not attempting to be sarcastic, but if all you are using the remote for is the preamp, how could it get much simpler? I mean it has an up or down for the main volume knob and that's all that applies to the preamp.
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@immatthewj I do but it would be really nice to have a smaller simpler remote.
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@testrun , don't you have the factory remote anymore?
@jaybe , I had sworn off Cary myself, but then this preamp came up on their preowned page at a price I could do, and before I had sworn Cary off, this was a pre I had heard great things about and I had always wanted. Combine that with my previous preamp (SLP 90) being ancient and sounding tired, I did some soul searching and then did the fickle thing and pulled the trigger. And in my system it has been transformative.
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Has anyone found an aftermarket simple remote that works with the current Cary SLP 05? Just looking for a remote to handle volume. More function is ok but volume is mandatory. Thanks
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Thanks all for the recent input and glad that many are happy with the Carey. But the gain uncertainty, age of the design, maybe the questionable customer service and odd feedback from the sales manager don't sit well with me. I've decided on a different 6NS7-based preamp for now.
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Check remote function. In my unit, it controls volume and nothing else. The buttons are for the cinema unit I think.
Volume is all that the remote does for my SLP-05.
By virtue of the high gain, I’m assuming the volume will be set relatively low when the 2 gain pots are full on. This to me seems like the volume adjustment will be difficult, as even small adjustments will result in big changes.
I use the balanced ins and outs and I feel the soundstage is more open with more bloom that way; however, there is not a lot of available real estae on the main volume knob in my small room. But that part really didn't turn out to be a big issue . . . my main concern is whether it would sound better if I could get the same volume with the pot in a higher position.
Aric has been very helpful in our emails and I feel he would be a great guy to deal with if I were to own one of his units. The communications from Cary have been somewhat different.
Tech support from CAD used to be soooo good. That was part of what made me a fan of Cary in the old days. Their customer service has changed a lot.
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@jaybe they might have changed the LR balance pots, mine clearly were labelled Honeywell and were designed for ATVs and crude motorized controls. Re the Alps, I doubt it looking at the Alps component catalog. If they still had the premium $100 pot from 20 years ago I would have bought that in a flash. Cary's sales volume, and anybody else for that matter, is way too small to justify custom design and production.
Aric can also fine tune the output capacitor to match amps. Carys ~4400 ohm output presents rolloff in low frequecies regardless.
Check remote function. In my unit, it controls volume and nothing else. The buttons are for the cinema unit I think.
Def have a return option, buying new unheard is a big risk. Used market ok but reselling these units can take over a year unless you want to burn some cash. Buying hifi is getting harder as dealers close shop.
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I have received the message below verbatim from Cary today when inquiring about the upgrade gain, the pots, and any difference between balanced and RCA sound quality. Note an earlier post on this thread said the pots were "cheap Honeywell pots".
The gain is reduced by 6db for both XLR and RCA.
The volume pot is an Alps motorized pot custom made for us by Alps in Japan. The balance pots are made by Bourns. Both brands are highly regarded and make excellent components. These are not inexpensive components.
I think differences in sound quality between RCA and balanced could result from several factors – cables, length of cable runs, etc. Inherently, I think both are excellent
The SLP-05 is one of the most highly regarded preamps on the market. It has been around for many years. This doesn’t happen by accident
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Glad I woke this thread up again.
@avanti1960 appreciate your and others’ input.
Please let me know if I have my interpretation of the gain issue right. I do intend to use balanced outs as this is my standard with all the pres and amps I’ve used, plus I’m hearing the Cary balanced outs have better soundstage, etc.
On my most recent pres, the gain is 12db on an ARC, and 20db on a Rogue. The SLP is 24db. My current amp is a newer Bryston cubed with selectable gain of 23 or 29db.
The SLP gain is high. By reducing the gain on the two pots this can be addressed. However, the quality of these pots is low, and they add some noise or other undesirable affect to the sound.
By virtue of the high gain, I’m assuming the volume will be set relatively low when the 2 gain pots are full on. This to me seems like the volume adjustment will be difficult, as even small adjustments will result in big changes. Yet, if I adjust the gain down, noise is introduced. I do prefer to have somewhat normal use of the volume.
My main questions are this.
When the gain pots are adjusted down, is the noise or otherwise negative effect noticeable?
With the Bryston’s gain set to 23db, should I have normal use of the volume with the gain pots full on?
It’s also been said that with the upgrade, the SLP’s gain is somewhat reduced.
What else should I be concerned about?
It almost seems that users of this pre have to go through all sorts of accommodations to get this thing to work normally. But the great reviews and comments from some users on the sound quality are keeping me interested.
The other pre I’m considering is the Aric Motherlode XL. I’m not seeing any controversy over that pre at all. However, there are features of the Cary I really like. The remote with more functions, attractive case work, and the fact that Cary is offering me 20% off the price after I emailed them a few questions. Plus the Cary is available in a short time, while it’s a 6 month wait for the Aric.
Aric has been very helpful in our emails and I feel he would be a great guy to deal with if I were to own one of his units. The communications from Cary have been somewhat different.
My system is fairly resolving. Speakers are Focal Sopras.
Look forward to any help with this and thanks in advance.
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@immatthewj Good advice on the 5AR4s. As long as the power rectifier circuit was well designed any change of tube should have a minimal effect. At that point it should be noted that variations in tube production over the years might also have just as significant an effect, positive or negative. My Sovtek had ~6000+ hours on it, figured getting a Mullard to try couldn't hurt. I will likely buy a backup 5AR4 from new production, unless the Mullard clearly shows it is better.
Yeah, the holes are a bit of an issue. If I did it again I would get a step bit or reamer and practice on some scrap first to make sure it remains perfectly circular and centered. I suppose I could have made a jig to get it on the drill press without total disassembly too. Meh. I had to do some hand filing in the end to get it where I wanted. The soldering is super easy, and if you remove the mounts temporarily on the headphone stage there is enough room to do all the work.
@testpilot I totally agree. The honeywell trim pots are a couple dollars each and are made for ATV controls, among other gross implementations. The Alps you could buy for under $25 with the remote motor. There is a ton of room inside the case for upgrades. It should be an option to go stepped or switched relay.
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Please note that Cary’s preamp gain is done BEFORE it reaches either the trim or main volume control. The only thing that trim pots and the main volume control do is attenuate the signal. The volume controls will not alter the noise floor as it has already passed through the gain stage. However, as one poster has pointed out, cheap volume pots have the ability to act as a filter.
If Cary really wanted to offer an Ultimate Upgrade, they should address the volume pots which is the SLP 05 Achilles heal.
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@khloebo , although you addressed this to @avanti1960
I should go back and see if the rectifier tube actually does anything for me.
I have rolled three 5AR4s (the original Sovtek, a GL, and a Mullard with Amperex brand on it) and I cannot say that anything reached out and slapped me on the face. But with that typed, I do not possess golden ears and there may have been a difference that was subliminal, meaning the way I believe my ear/brain connection works is that I may be enjoying something either more or actually less, but it is a subconcious type of thing that results in either pleasure or displeasure. If that makes sense, because it is a concept that is hard for me to put into words. And it makes A/Bs hard to do for me.
I also have a couple of 5AR4s that I picked up that I have yet to try yet--an actual Dutch Amperex and a Japanese tube . . . maybe a Nakamichi? I’d have to go back and fid it and look at it. Someone on ebay was once selling some 5AR4s that they were saying were the "Japanese Mullards" (which I had heard of before) and the way I was doing ebay binges,at the time, I am surprised now that I didn’t buy one of those also.
A PS on edit: hogging out those holes for the upgrade pots makes be a tad nervous, I will have to think about that. I may try to get back to you on this project.
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@immatthewj It sounds like we have essentially the exact same unit (depressions and all), excepting the ultimate upgrade. I am curious, but the cost is definitely a factor.
The mix and matching is truly the appeal, with the variety 6sn7s out there. If I dream and ignore consequences, it would be fun to remove the headphone stage, drill another pair of holes, then be able to choose from 3 input tube stages! Crazy talk...
Yes you have it, you could replace the pots with quality stepped attenuators. I had to enlarge the holes a bit to fit the goldpoint 24 steps. I thought about doing 47 but size was scary close, and digital attenuation below 20dB is totally fine if you want to go that way. The main benefit was the improvement in clarity. Running the alps at 12-2 o'clock wasn't bad, and if I did volume matched comparisons no Alps was better, but I will admit it was getting close enough that blind testing might prove me wrong. But yes, I run digital -6db to -25db for music, the girls do the remote control Alps volume for TV roughly at 12 o'clock. Input pots never change
I'm currently smitten with the Linlai e6SN7 tubes as a quad.
@avanti1960 Now that you mention it, I should go back and see if the rectifier tube actually does anything for me. I swapped in a mullard copper edge from Vintage Tube services, but didn't notice anything different at the time. The time to swap just makes anything short of night and day really difficult to see. Sounds like fun!
Glad everyone is enjoying happy listening though.
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@khloebo
very nice description of the workings of the SLP 05.
right now my system sounds so good with the stock SLP non modded or upgraded. For anyone interested I do have 3 matched pairs of a specific variety of Sylvania 6SN7s running every slot except the headphone amp. The rectifier is a NOS made by mullard GZ34. fyi the RCA smoked glass did not work out and neither did several other NOS notables.
the tubes and rectifier made such an upgrade I recommend them to anyone with or thinking of an SLP05
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@khloebo , from reading your posts I have no doubt that you are way more tech savvy than I am (and in case that sounds like it might be snark, I am totally sincere) and I didn’t put as much science and knowledge into the comparisons that formed my perceptions as you have.
I acquired mine in ’21 from Cary’s preowned page, and from my memories of the emails I exchanged before I pulled the trigger, it was 8 years old at the time (it is one of the ones with the indentations on the power supply for the preamp feet to sit on, although I don’t have mine set up that way). When I called Cary on the phone (they will talk to you on the phone if you want to buy something) to close the deal, I decided that I may as well do The Ultimate Upgrade at the same time, and an added "bonus" would be free shipping (no free shipping on preowned, but if one was to send a preamp to cary for the upgrade, Cary would send it back after the work for "free") even though that meant that once the upgrade was done I owned it even if I didn’t like it.
But to understand where I am coming from with my perceptions of the SQ, up until that point I had been listening to a SLP-90 which I had owned since ’99. And the SLP-90 replaced a B&K digital HT preamp, so as you can see, my experience playing with high quality preamps is, to say the least, limited).
The SLP-90 was a huge upgrade in SQ from the HT preamp, but it was starting to sound as if it was getting tired. So the fact that I was listening to a 30 year old preamp probably has a lot to with why I like the SLP-05 as much as I do, although I will say that the SLP-05 sounds a bit (or maybe more than a bit) cool and clinical in comparison with my SLP-90.
As far as my balanced input tubes, that’s something else I am doing different that makes RCA vs XLR not a fair comparison. A friend from another site turned me on to a literal plethora of PAIRS of vintage 6SN7s (note that I emphasized ’pairs’) so after playing around with those in the balanced slots, I did note that some of them really really shined. At the moment I have a pair of National Union 6F8Gs (obviously with adapters) in those slots, and they really do it for me some nights. And prior to putting those in, I was giving a pair of Sylvania ’52 Bad Boys an extended spin, and they were making me happy, but for different reasons. I also found two different pairs of VT231s in that plethora that I thought were audibly better than the rest, with my favorite being a pair of black glass RCAs which made detail and separation stand out much more clearly and cleanly. (There were also pairs out of that fore mentioned plethora that I was not sure if I heard any discernible difference or not, and there are actually pairs of both 6sn7s and 6F8Gs that I have yet to even try.)
So with that all typed, I realize that you were making your observations re XLR vs RCA with all tubes being equal.
Back to the pots: what you typed about using the input level pots in conjunction with the main Alps pot was quite interesting, because in my near field environment I am usually at 9 o-clock + or - a bit, and that, of course, is with the input level pots turned all the way up.
My vision is not very good anymore and also I am a bit dense when it comes to understanding this stuff, but it sounds as if what you have been saying is that to get the best SQ given some of my other limitations also means lowering the gain and if I am stubborn about XLRs the next best would be to upgrade the two input level pots and use them for volume control with the main pot turned all the way up? Or at least set the upgraded inputs low enough so I can run the main Alps at 12 o-c-clock or close to it?
Forgive me if that is not what you have been saying.
(Okay, so now I note that you said that basically the Alps is not at its best at the bottom OR TOP quarter . . . meaning that I would not want to run it all the way up if I was combining it with the input level pots for volume adjustment.)
Regardless, unless I am totally misreading, upgrading the input level pots is definitely recommended. Even though I make no claims to be a tech, I do have experience soldering and de-soldering . . . how tricky a job is replacing the pots on this unit?
Having said all that, nothing needs to be done when you love the sound, XLR or RCA.
Well, there are nights that I am in love. But who doesn’t want more and more love?
Hey, thanks for your contribution to this thread!
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@immatthewj Hi there! Good point for the discussion, no mine does not. I bought it 2014 as well, it probably has around 7000 hours on it.
The upgrade package reportedly has a complete capacitor overhaul, which could affect the SQ in a number of ways (especially driving 20k input impedance). However, I have not read anyone doing a direct comparison between the two, which is not surprising.
Also, and this is just a giant guess as I haven't created a circuit design and asked an EE about it, but if the ultimate upgrade improves the capacitors, AND the circuitry that converts the balanced signals to unbalanced (and vice versa for output) then it absolutely should be better in technical performance and adding input tubes should add tube character.
One of the reasons why I replaced the input trim pots with Goldpoint attenuators is so that I could figure out some issues I discovered with tonal shifts during digital vs analog attenuation. Long story short, both the cheap honeywell pots and the Alps act as low pass filters when attenuation is nearing the max. IE, they remove high frequencies. Thus sound is perceived to be rich in mids with fat bass. Using XLR and low volume controls increases this effect. It can be very pleasing and rich! However, it comes at the expense of clarity and dynamics. Listening to a bunch of systems over the last couple years with tubes left me unsatisfied with mine, so I tinkered. The Goldpoints allow tons of clarity, richness, detail, space and everything else through. I keep the Alps at max so it is out of the circuit for music, it only gets used now for TV volume.
Having said all that, nothing needs to be done when you love the sound, XLR or RCA. New purchasers should definitely try the unit before buying or with a full return option. It is an interesting box that needs the right situation to sound at its best.
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I found after considerable testing that the XLR inputs and outputs of the Cary sound different (edit: compared to RCA).
@khloebo , my impression is the complete opposite. I have found that when comparing SQ of the balanced circuit vs the RCA circuit, that after listening to my system using the XLRs the sound stage seems folded in or collapsed when I use the RCAs.
Out of curiosity, and not that it would have anything to do with perceptions of balanced vs single ended ins and outs, does your SLP-05 have the Cary Upgrade package?
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I haven’t tried the Rothwells, so I cannot comment on those directly.
In regards to attenuators, there are some things that should definitely be pointed out. First off, any attenuator that isn’t matched to output and impedance runs the risk of increasing roll off in the upper or lower frequencies. Because attenuation works by dumping voltage to ground, and allowing the remaining voltage to pass to the input circuitry, current is also passing to ground. I tried some basic 600ohm T style first because the case was reusable and I could always try different topologies, buy as many resistors as I wanted to find the sweet spot. The 600 ohms dumped so much current the tubes were unable to drive any low frequencies. Keep in mind that the 400 ohm output impedance of the Cary rises to 4000+ as the signal drops to ~20 Hz, as measured by JA in the Stereophile review. This unit runs out of juice quickly unless you have a high input impedance amp. 50k+ would be my recommendation. Note that OTHER highly regarded tube preamp makers state they can increase the cost with beefier output capacitors to match equipment.
I was able to find a resistor match that did measure tonally the same. However, and these are my listening impressions only and should not be regarded as a claim to anything but, I found after considerable testing that the XLR inputs and outputs of the Cary sound different (edit: compared to RCA). With 6 identical tubes, the XLR pathway loses warmth, bloom, depth, microdynamics and more. Some say adjust with the input trim. That is BS, they are directly wired to the Alps pot. Putting 2 cheap plastic trim pots in series serves no purpose except to allow balancing for mismatched tubes in the headphone stage where it will be most noticeable. Regardless, both the input and output XLR circuitry both have the same character (edit, compared to RCA).
I did ask Cary about this issue and if they would recommend a local service place to diagnose the issue, and they didn’t reply. Commonly held belief is that properly made RCA and XLR circuits should sound identical. Indeed, in my other gear they do.
Having said all that, running RCA with only 4 tubes (leaving 4 empty), replacing the Alps pot with Kozmo, Goldpoint, or other high quality attentuators and removing the input trim pots will leave you with the potential for glorious sound, as long as you buy exceptional tubes. I did the work myself, but it will cost you around $1k if you get a tech to do it.
The gain issue should not be ignored. Running my XLR 4V outputs through the Cary into a Pass amp (+26 db) required the attenuators to dump 99% of the voltage to ground after the input tubes going by resistance level and L circuit configuration. Many users note minimal volume control issues. Note also the alps is also the most susceptible to internal RMF signal interference at the bottom and top 1/4 of its range. Note that with output relays turned off you can clearly hear an input signal at low and high volume, but not at 12o’clock. So you have to be able to run the unit at 11-2 ish to get best sound. Gain matching and impedance matching are critical to getting great sound with this unit. YMMV, and others have reported great satisfaction.
Cheers
Edited to remove ambiguity, and noted as edits
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@jaybe
Having lived with the ins and outs of the SLP05 I am still enthralled with the sound quality of this preamp.
The extra gain can be too much but there are two ways to satisfactorily work with it. BTW the higher gain is a virtue as the resulting dynamics make for a superior sound stage and listening experience. Also the rothwell 10db attenuators did not work for me either.
The easiest way to deal with it is to use the single ended outputs which gives you 17db which is perfectly suitable for most amplifiers and just two db more than most preamps. This is my current setup feeding my new gen McIntosh MC312 power amp and the sound is both dynamic and pristine.
The second way is to use an amplifier with lower than usual gain and use the balanced outputs higher 24 db gain. I used it with the Pass Labs XA25 that has 20db gain with stunning results. Also the Benchmark AHB2, many of the First Watt amps as well as Bryston models that have a two way gain switch one being 22 db.
Its incredible what this preamp can do in stock form, even better with NOS tubes and rectfier. Dont let the higher gain scare you away.
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Find this an interesting thread as I’m still looking at an SLP-05 as a second preamp.
Enjoythemusic dot com published a review of the Rothwells that say they do affect sound quality. Never used them myself but seeing here they seem quite popular.
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Hello all,
I thought it would be worthwhile to add to this thread as the unit does have a ton of gain that will severely limit use of the main volume pot. After reading through this thread and others, there has been some good information and some incorrect conclusions. I thought I would relay my experiences here to help future owners resolve the question of what to do with the excessive gain in a pre that they love.
First, let’s be clear what the circuitry is. ALL inputs, xlr (via input tube buffer) or rca get routed to the right and left input trim pots. The pots are a cheap Honeywell plastic potentiometer, 100kOhms. Recommended use for this pot from the Honeywell sheet is in ATVs, joystick controls, and more. Ruggedized for military standards. These Honeywell pots are directly wired to the two plastic potentiometer layers of the Alps 100 kOhm pots, which has a motor control. So you can use either the trim pots or the volume knob to control volume, or both. It doesn’t matter electrically, you just have 2 pots in series.
I have played around with the pots on the Cary, as well as digital attenuation. Re digital, some software driven attenuators are definitely better than others, but it seems like -10- to -15db is the limit where I don’t hear issues in volume matched back to back comparisons. Yeah, I know it shouldn’t be the case mathematically, but something is off. Besides, even -30 or -40 db digital attenuation isn’t enough to give you full use of the volume knob. So that isn’t the answer.
Playing with the pots is interesting, because you will quickly notice with volume matched testing that the balance trim pots are clearly filtering the signals. This shows up with low level information at all frequencies, but it is most easy to see with higher frequencies. Maybe a system runs a bit bright? Well ok, but the full spectrum loss of clarity and detail is not a favorable trade. Buy tubes that are rolled off on top, *cough* I meant warm sounding. 
Playing with the Alps volume pot gives similar results, but with less severity. The channel imbalance near max attenuation is a problem though, as is the high frequency filtering which makes the bass seem exaggerated.
So what are the solutions? I guess you have to decide what you want out of this pre. Do you use the headphones a lot? The input trim will likely be important unless your tubes are perfectly balanced. Input trims are useful for troubleshooting, but that is limited case scenario when it is also easy to just pull a cable. Only use the volume knob and you just want it to work better?
If you want it all I would look at replacing the volume and the trim pots with high quality stepped attenuators. Goldpoint,Khozmo, or others are good examples. Yes they are expensive. But your $6-8k amp deserves better than 3$ and 12$ pots. I put in a 24 step mono 100k pots in place of the trim as I don’t use headphones. If you do, maybe see if 47 step will fit.. First off, night and day improvement in clarity at all frequencies, you will sit up in your chair. Second, with high quality pots you will notice that the Alps isn’t exactly bad. If you do most of the attenuation with your stepped pots, then you can run the Alps from 12o’clock to full on with good results. In messing with this configuration over the last month, I would say that the less the Alps is in the chain, the clarity improves but with diminishing returns. My next step will be to replace the Alps with a 47 step attenuator and call it good. The upper range of the 24 stepped input trim is just a teensy bit limiting in my system.
Motorized volume knob mandatory? Well there are solutions depending on the attenuator you choose, but they are expensive. I would go this route if you plan to keep the pre for as long as you can. I haven’t decided what to do yet, I might see if I can use the existing RC design and fabricate an adaptor for the new attenuator. We’ll see.
Hope this helps. Yes, get a professional to do the work and the usual disclaimers. I have no knowledge of EE or circuit designs, these conclusions are my own experience and you may get different results. Make modifications at your own risk.
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@immathewj
I have learned your issue the hard way having bought a power amp with 26db gain for my Cary SLP-05 (Pass Labs XA30.8). Even when the Cary's gain is backed off to half (going any lower affects dynamics) there is too much gain in the system.
I tried the 10db rothwell attenuators and did not care for the results.
I also tried using the RCA outputs which drops the Cary gain from 24 db to 17db. This definitely helped but I lost a lot of the 3-D huge soundstage when not using the XLR outs on the Cary, the balanced outs run through another set of tubes and the sound stage is much larger and the sound is ore dynamic.
Ultimately an amplifier with 23 to 20 db gain works best- or an amp with adjustable gain like Parasound a21+ or JC5 which I run at about half gain.
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@immatthewj Definitely think you will be happy with your decision. I went through the same litany of issues running SLP-05 into Pass X250.8. The Rothwell’s have worked out great. I usually run main volume pot between 10 and 1 with small. Balancing L/R pots at 100% and system is dead silent and very dynamic.
@harpo75 Thanks for the clear explanation on balanced gain, pot issues etc. i run balanced from the Cary to the Pass and my analogue from the phono preamp to the Cary. I actually loved the extra balanced dB bump on the mc cartridge. I am currently running rca from my 2.0 v digital source as I have not been able to hear a difference and I like the reduced gain even at the 2.0 volts( still run main volume between 10-12 for digital) I will revisit this again but since cables are different that clouds the comparison and I want to stay away from lowering main volume below 9 o’clock. Enjoy, looks like you got some great experienced advice here.
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@desktopguy
thanks for the explanation.
I am actually the OP on this thread, & one of my questions/concerns was "am I losing anything, sonically, by having to keep my volume pot backed off to a low setting?" It sounds as if I may be.
6 oclock is my volume pot backed all the way off. Normal listening volume for me depends upon the CD (how loud, or I guess how much gain(?) of the CD itself) but it is usually at or about 9 oclock & sometimes, but not often, as high as 10:30 or 11 oclock. I would think it would be screaming at me if I ever put it at 12 oclock. (Part of this is probably due to the small listening room I am presently in.)
As far as what you said about nonlinearity at volume pot extremes, a little while back ago I was messing around with a Sheffeiel Labs test CD that I bought a long time ago & I came upon a test I had never done, & that involved a test tone & the instructions were to put the leads of a voltmeter on the speker wire terminals & compare the readings of both speakers. I did note that one was a bit higher than the other, so I used one of the balance pots of the preamp to make them even. This was a while ago, but I think I remember doing tube swapping on the preamp to see if the discrepancy followed the tubes, & I was thinking, at the time (if I hadn’t confused myself) that it was following the position of 2 tubes (L & R) for the balanced inputs of the preamp.
After reading your replay, I guess I should repeat that test & see if I was correct about it following those tubes.
Anywy, thanks again for the explanation.
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@immatthewj, sure. If gain issues exist in the system (in my case, due to relatively high voltage output of the upstream DAC), this results in my using the downstream volume pot (of the headphone amplifier/preamplifier being fed signal from the DAC) rotated nearly all the way counterclockwise. That means if I rotate that pot very far at all in the clockwise direction--to increase volume--the already borderline-excessive volume increases quickly and to an intolerable level.
Traditional wiper-type volume pots often exhibit sonic nonlinearity at this extreme counterclockwise rotation. Typically this is experienced as poor channel tracking, with one channel sounding louder than the other. Depending on the specific volume pot, there also might be higher than usual audio distortion at extreme counterclockwise settings.
One goal of reducing system gain via devices such as the Rothwell attenuators (installed in the RCA inputs of the amp/preamp) is to reclaim some of the lower roatitonal range of the amp/preamp’s volume pot, so I can adjusting the desired volume a little further up from the farthest counterclockwise position, thus avoiding any non-linearity at that position.
Note: with certain other types of volume pots (ie, stepped, reed-relay, or digital domain designs) there is no apparent non-linearity at the pot’s rotational extremes. Thus these pots exhibit little or no nonlinearity with in systems with excessive gain, Howeverr, there may still remain the issue of having "too few steps" for effective volume adjustment.
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@desktopguy
could you explain to me what you mean by this?
but it also risks the audibility of any channel-tracking non-linearity in any give volume pot.
Thanks.
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@desktopguy ah thanks man. I read your previous post too fast. appreciate the reply though. I just ordered a set of Rothwell attenuators, so hopefully they'll do the trick.
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@docroasty, I've never heard any Cary electronics. I've used the Rothwell attenuators (single-ended, rated @-10 dB) only on the Kinki Studio THR-1 headphone amp/preamp. In that application, the Rothwells did nothing I could detect to the overall sound, beyond lowering the gain somewhat (as intended).
I'd have to hear them in a larger 2-channel system to dial in their transparent. But in in my pretty resolving, high quality desktop system, they did exactly what they're advertised to do and seemed quite transparent.
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@desktopguy any feedback on the Rothwell attenuators with the slp-05?
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I don’t own any Cary gear so can’t comment on that aspect of this thread. But I surely do know about gain problems in my main desktop system. I’ve wrestled with excessive gain in this system for years, always with the same symptoms: the main preamp volume pot has only a few degrees of play at the lower/left end of its rotation, such that the lowest volume to the highest volume are adjusted only from, for example, 7:30 on the dial (the end of counterclockwise rotation) up to perhaps 8:30 or 9 on the dial for the very loudest volume desired. Not only does this deprive me of the ability to fine-tune volume easily and repeatably; but it also risks the audibility of any channel-tracking non-linearity in any give volume pot.
This situation only got worse when I went from a delta-sigma DAC with 1.9 volts output single-ended; to a NOS/R2R DAC with 2.5 volts output; and most recently, to a NOS/R2R DAC with 3.0 volts output. I got through this because the preamp/headphone amp I’ve been using, the Violectric V281, has very granular and effect gain controls, separate for the line-out vs headphone output. With both controls set at -12 dB, things have been fine, and the V281’s range of usable rotatotion of the big stepped volume pot is ~9:00 (lowest volume) to ~1:30 (highest).
Then 2 weeks ago I got a new headphone amp/preamp that I burned in and want to hear as the main system preamp/headphone amp, in order to give the overworked V281 a rest. Unfortunately, this new unit (Kinki Audio Vision THR-1) represents a "perfect storm" of excessive gain:
- It has rather extreme power (28 wpc @8 ohms down to 1.3 wpc @600 ohms). It’s really an integrated amp that lacks speaker taps
- But it has no low/medium/high gain setting. What you get is the full native gain of the unit on all downstream sources
- As a result, this amp is virtually unusable in my system for use as intended.
- But I know from burnin listening that it sounds wonderful and suits my tastes in every way.
So what to do?
First, I experimented with inserting a very good sounding, transformer-based passive volume controller between the DAC and this new amp. Doing so is a real PITA (additional run of interconnect; place 2 new units on crowded desktop instead of just 1), but with its volume pot set to -10 dB, it does exactly what I want: the volume pot of the new amp now can be used from ~9:00 to 2:00 on the dial, lowest to highest volume, which is ideal for me.
Before this thread, I’d never heard of Rothwell attenuators, though I had heard of cheaper ones that get very dicey/up-and-down user reviews, with too many comments talking about loss of transparency and dynamics. Reviews and user comments for the Rothwell attenuators are far more positive. So I just ordered a pair of 10 dB attenuators as a way to simplify my new system.
My overall point here is the gain problems are totally real, Cary gear or no Cary gear. When you have gain problems, they can't simply be resolved by using the volume pot at the lowest few degrees of rotation. That’s usually produces sonically sub-par results, plus is borderline-impossible to live with, day to day.
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26db (Modwright KWA 150 SE).
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@shredder
do you know how much gain your power amplifier has?
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I owned an SLP-05 as well. It sounded great in many ways, but I ended up selling it because (you guessed it) it had too much gain (and hence noise). I tried various attenuators, including Rothwell's, and the input controls on the pre itself, and they helped but ultimately compromised the dynamics. I paid for the Ultimate Upgrade but the small reduction in gain was not audible to me. Cary told me that dynamics would be compromised if they attenuated further.
I replaced the Cary with an integrated (Ayre AX-5/20) and have been very pleased.
Good luck.
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Philharmonicpete - Yes the total gain is reduced about 3db to about 21 I believe on the ultimate upgrade. The reason is that the plate load and cathode resistor values were changed which changes essentially the “slope” if you will, of the sound. This made the sound less thin and a little more full in the bass and midrange. I liked this as I always thought the original 05, although great, was a bit thin and a hint bright for my taste. Also all the better Mundorf caps and beefed up power supply cleaned it up. So the gain wasn’t purposely reduced (although it has more then it needs) it’s more of a byproduct of the value changes on the plate and cathode.
The headphone circuit is very good. The only thing to upgrade there would be better output transformers to improve the bass response and overall sound quality. Maybe something like the Lundahll or Sowter or something like that. Of course it has to fit too! I thought it would be nice to look into but I never have.
immatthewj - By all means the SLP-05 sounds much better run full balanced. Don’t go back to RCA single-ended. You won’t like it after running balanced. Balanced is fuller sounding, more dynamic, better imaging, cleaner, etc.
Cary Audio of course won’t upgrade the controls or headphone output transformers. They are only going to put in what they supply. You’ll need a tweaker to do that. I’m sure there’s plenty of people on the forum that have the expertise to tackle that if they wanted to.
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LISTEN TO THE DAM PREAMP!
The balanced connections sound noticeably better (pre outs). The balanced circuitry passes through another set of tubes. Just do a quick AB comparison. That is all it took for me. The balanced soundstage is huge and more open with distinct separation between instruments, it is really something.
Using the RCA outs the sound stage is instantly collapsed and less exciting, very obvious.
I choose balanced every time. Give it a try from your listening position.
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All right sorry! I always explain too much.
@harpo75 no, not at all! Thank you! I like the sound of tubes when everything is running good, but I really do not have the mind for comprehending a lot of this stuff.
It almost sounds like you would agree with the previous advice that @russ69 offered, which was to use the RCAs?
I guess I am feeling stubborn about that because of the $ I invested in my balanced Kimber Silver Streaks. If I do go to my RCAs, the best I have on hand (right now) are my Kimber PBJs. (I also have a bunch of Monster, but I don't think that was ever very good interconnecting.)
I am going to continue to be redundant and reiterate that I can, in fact, find a place with the big knob where the I am good with the level--but my question was related to whether the quality of that level would be better if I could achieve it at a higher than 9 o-clock setting of the volume knob.
Thanks again!
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@harpo75 Are you saying the balanced gain total for the ultimate upgrade is now 21 dB rather than 24 dB? And does the gain get lowered with a totally single ended input as well?
Also any comments on the sound of the headphone amp in this preamp?
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@immatthewj
with the left / right gain controls each at 50 % (sounds best)
the volume control is at 9:00 to 10:00 or so most often, moderate loud, for my higher output digital sources and 10:00 to 11:00 for my turntable.
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@xcool’s statements are perfect. Love it.
Although the Cary support person is very nice, sometimes he doesn’t give me a straight answer [. . .] He never really answered my question.
“Haha. Yeah. There was a time when I used to rave to anyone who would listen to me about Cary Audio’s telephone tech support. I will say no more on that subject.”
Yes, absolutely right! Now the answers are just cut and paste. Dan and Marc used used to be great on the phones there but there’s no more phone support as many companies are doing. And Dennis Hadd’s statement still holds true and now even more so. The two balance pots are even cheaper ones then they used to use. Years ago they used the Clarostat pots in that position. Then when those got more expensive they change to some very cheap generic pots which are terrible. At least they still use the Alps Blue Velvet in the main volume position.
Also glad you didn’t go for the lower gain mod. Part of that mod is already in your ultimate upgrade when they change the cathode resistors. The rest is simply adding four resistors in the line gain stage to reduce the signal and I didn’t think the preamp sounded as good then. Just lost its life.
If you want to keep the two balance controls and improve the sound quality get a couple of high quality mono pots for that position. Like a couple of the mono version Alps Blue Beauty or better. Or better get the Khozmo or whatever. There isn’t a lot of room there before it hits the pc board so you’ll have to measure things. As I mentioned the value of the pots are stamped on the back of it their values.
Another answer that is better then two pots, find the position that sounds best on the balance pots and, that gives you some master volume adjustment freedom, measure the resistance of the balance pots and install to high quality resistors in there place. That will sound better then most any pot. Of course then you have no control over balance.
What to understand in the way the 05 is that the gain of the tube circuit is set. It’s just on. What you are controlling is how much of the signal coming in from your source you are going to allow to go forward into the circuit and be amplified. Now the balanced input circuit (6SN7 tubes 3&6) of the SLP-05 produce gain also. About 9db on ultimate upgrade units and 12db on a standard one. So the balanced input gets amplified and then routes through the balance controls and then the volume control, then on to the line stage circuit consisting of the four 6SN7 tubes 1,2,4,5. The single-ended inputs route in from the switching relays directly to the balance and volume controls. That is one reason why there is so much gain on the balanced inputs. Along with twice the signal from the +/- phases. I’ve heard of people trying and I’ve tried lowering the gain into the balanced inputs from the source but I’ve really noticed a lack of dynamics and overall sound quality then. They need the +/-2V in for best sound. Another thing to be careful of is how much input goes into the balanced inputs. They overload the tube if you go much more the 2V per phase of the balanced signal. Meaning balanced +2V and -2V. Like once you hit about 2.3V to 2.4V per phase you will start hearing it distort/clip. Things get hard and bright first then fully distort. So be careful of your balanced source components. To understand better, those two tubes are “full on” and there is no volume control in front of them. It was designed in the day when the standard source component output was 2V.
All right sorry! I always explain too much.
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Backing off the gain knobs gradually until it sounds best (listen carefully) and you are good to go.
@avanti1960 I am actually going to try this. With your L and R ’input level’ knobs backed off to where you feel is optimal, where is your ’listening level’ (the big knob) usually at?
Oh, and on edit: I do have some vintage RCA black glass vt231s in my balanced input sockets (#3 & #6) and I am working on four more. I am also working on a vintage 5AR4.
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The discussion on this topic is very puzzling. The idea that people would buy attenuators or a gain reduction mod for their SLP 05 is something I see and hear no reason for.
Buy a NOS rectifier and some 6SN7 tubes. Use the balanced connections. Optimize your interconnects. Absolutely.
Set the gain by listening to your highest output source with the gain knobs set at full. According to an old Stereophile review this effectively eliminates their circuitry. But does it sound the best?
Not for me. Too much gain and the sound was edgy at low volume levels.
Backing off the gain knobs gradually until it sounds best (listen carefully) and you are good to go. It sounds amazing! The sound will be better at the same net loudness levels. It works!
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The Roth well attenuators work well with very minimal loss of micro detail
in a very high resolution system, depending on quality of cables and rest od system .what is in your Cary for a volume attenuator is key, if it is a Alps volume pot that is cheap and seen as a silver round drop ,just a plastic conductive wiper.
ifitis a resistive ladder attenuators then it should not me much of a issue.
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@xcool the confusion is not your fault. I just would have thought that for a job parts + whatever the hourly rate for labor is would have covered a job. I may be out of touch on that as I really try to farm as little as possible out. Like for The Ultimate Upgrade, for example, they give you what the rate is for the job (kind of like getting your ball-joints on your auto replaced); I wonder why they don’t do that for the Gain Reduction Mod.
Although the Cary support person is very nice, sometimes he doesn’t give me a straight answer [. . .] He never really answered my question.
Haha. Yeah. There was a time when I used to rave to anyone who would listen to me about Cary Audio’s telephone tech support. I will say no more on that subject.
As far as using the ’input level’ pots in conjunction with the ’listening level’ (the big knob) pot to compensate for gain, reading through the replies I have received, there do seem to be two schools of thought re that. As I typed in one of my last responses to a reply, way back when I bought my Dennis Had "hot-rodded" SLP90, Dennis must have felt that L & R input level pots were, at least to some degree, degrading the signal path (but that was 30 years or so ago he built that preamp, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the pots are better now a days). I said I would say no more about a certain subject, but I really don’t see why Cary Support cannot provide a simple straight answer on that. Oh well, one of many things in life that I do not understand.
So, not to be redundant (but I guess I constantly am), but for me the bottom line is that I can find a volume setting that makes me happy, and if there is no difference in sonic quality between a certain volume at 3 o-clock & that same volume at 6 o-clock (and reading replies, there seem to be a couple of schools of thought on that as well) I am good with it as it is. I think it would be useless to try and get a straight answer from CAD Support on that also.
Hey, it is real good to hear that you will be reunited with your SLP shortly. I bet you are loving that news. And since you didn’t mention it, I am assuming that, at least for the time being, they didn’t tell you what was broke..
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Hi @immatthewj, the cost is actually $140 bench fee plus parts and labor. He didn't specify how much is parts and labor. Sorry about the confusion. Anyway, I decided not to go for that mod.
Although the Cary support person is very nice, sometimes he doesn't give me a straight answer. I was trying find out from him whether Cary recommends leaving the left & right gain dials at maximum for best sound quality. He never really answered my question. Instead, he offered the gain reduction modification if I think the gain is too high.
As mentioned in my earlier post, I've been setting the gains at 3 o'clock position. I haven't tried that many different combination of gain settings between the Cary and my power Amp. I might try to do that when I get my unit back.
Looks like my unit is pretty much fixed, they have been running it continuously over the weekend to make sure everything is alright. I expect them to ship it back to me some time this week. I'll try to post an update once I get it back.
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