"Too much gain"? (Cary SLP05 question)

@avanti1960   again, I want to stress that I am not disagreeing or seeking an argument.  Only seeking clarification on this subject.  So if I use the left & right "input level" pots to control my volume, is that a better thing than using the big knob (labeled 'listening level") to accomplish my volume control?  I wouldn't be simply robbing Peter to pay Paul?

And to do this, what would you recommend?  Start with the big knob at 12 o-clock with the left & right "input level" pots backed all the way off and then advance them judiciously?

All right sorry! I always explain too much.

@harpo75 no, not at all! Thank you! I like the sound of tubes when everything is running good, but I really do not have the mind for comprehending a lot of this stuff.

It almost sounds like you would agree with the previous advice that @russ69 offered, which was to use the RCAs?

I guess I am feeling stubborn about that because of the $ I invested in my balanced Kimber Silver Streaks. If I do go to my RCAs, the best I have on hand (right now) are my Kimber PBJs.  (I also have a bunch of Monster, but I don't think that was ever very good interconnecting.)

I am going to continue to be redundant and reiterate that I can, in fact, find a place with the big knob where the I am good with the level--but my question was related to whether the quality of that level would be better if I could achieve it at a higher than 9 o-clock setting of the volume knob.

Thanks again!

Thank you all for taking the time to respond & to educate me.  (And OOPS!  I was wrong about the price of the Rothwells--$109 = about $10 shipping.)

@voodoolounge   this is strictly a question, not a question looking for an argument.

Why is a lot of gain necessarily bad? Does having more "real estate" (as I have hear it referred to) to utilize on the volume knob improve the sonic quality?

Thank you again to all that have offered me input on this.

@twoleftears  for the moment I will single out your reply as I can answer these questions with concrete answers:

There are two issues here, does the volume pot have an optimal operation range (typically around half way between min and max), and does the way the volume pot operates at the moment give you enough fine adjustability to hit exactly the volume that you want to listen at.

#1  That would be about twelve o-clock, and if I put it there with anything but low level recordings, it would be blasting me out of my small listening room.  It would be LOUD.

#2 Yes, I can find a level that works for me, but it gets there quick.  As previously typed, usually around nine o-clock with some + or - depending upon the level of the recording. 

After reading through that revived SLP05 thread, it made me wonder and inquire if the same volume would sound better if I was obtaining it at a higher setting of the volume knob.  In other words, would my desired volume have a better sonic quality if it was achieved with the volume knob set to twelve o-clock or more as opposed to  nine o-clock.

@russ69   when you say that an attenuator "will drive the preamp harder," is the bottom line that this is what I want to do to achieve (at least "on paper") better sonic quality? 

Wow, thanks for all the input, everybody!   I need to sit back & digest it.

@harpo75   I actually did get this unit with The Ultimate Upgrade installed.

As far as the two balance controls, I have kept them maxed out for normal listening and in the past, with my SLP 90, I did find them useful for troubleshooting.  As far as having them taken out of the circuit, in '99 I bought my previous preamp, the SLP90, second hand from a dealer.  He told me it had been "hot rodded by Dennis Had."  What that meant was that, among other things, the balance control pots had been taken out of the circuit.  That SLP90 was a huge sonic upgrade for me, but I thought that most of the "hot rodding" that had been done to it made it totally unresellable (except to some dummy like me) so I called Cary up & spoke to Kirk Owens about undoing some of the mods.  As far as the defeated balance controls went, Kirk told me that in theory (or on paper) there was some signal path degradation, but whether it could be heard was another matter.  Sooooo, I did wind up having him put balance controls back in, and on the receipt for the work that he did, he referred to them as "improved quality L & R balance pots."  (And I did always run them maxed out, but I did, quite often, find them useful for troubleshooting.) 

@xcool thanks for the info on that.

Could you clarify

It costs $140 plus parts and labor.

I assume that is a typo, but maybe not? $140 + shipping maybe?

Anyway, have you been able to just fine tune with the big knob to find your "sweet spot"? Personally, I am thinking I can get the volume where I like it (although it does get there fast) but I just wasn’t understanding for sure whether the same volume would have a better sonic quality at, for example, 6-oclock versus 3-ocklock. Out of curiosity, did Cary Support offer anything on that part of the subject?

And how did you make out with the SLP05 malfunction you had posted about?

EDIT:  OOPS on that, I just reread your reply and I see you are using the left & right input level pots to compensate with.

@xcool the confusion is not your fault. I just would have thought that for a job parts + whatever the hourly rate for labor is would have covered a job. I may be out of touch on that as I really try to farm as little as possible out. Like for The Ultimate Upgrade, for example, they give you what the rate is for the job (kind of like getting your ball-joints on your auto replaced); I wonder why they don’t do that for the Gain Reduction Mod.

Although the Cary support person is very nice, sometimes he doesn’t give me a straight answer [. . .] He never really answered my question.

Haha. Yeah. There was a time when I used to rave to anyone who would listen to me about Cary Audio’s telephone tech support. I will say no more on that subject.

As far as using the ’input level’ pots in conjunction with the ’listening level’ (the big knob) pot to compensate for gain, reading through the replies I have received, there do seem to be two schools of thought re that. As I typed in one of my last responses to a reply, way back when I bought my Dennis Had "hot-rodded" SLP90, Dennis must have felt that L & R input level pots were, at least to some degree, degrading the signal path (but that was 30 years or so ago he built that preamp, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the pots are better now a days). I said I would say no more about a certain subject, but I really don’t see why Cary Support cannot provide a simple straight answer on that. Oh well, one of many things in life that I do not understand.

So, not to be redundant (but I guess I constantly am), but for me the bottom line is that I can find a volume setting that makes me happy, and if there is no difference in sonic quality between a certain volume at 3 o-clock & that same volume at 6 o-clock (and reading replies, there seem to be a couple of schools of thought on that as well) I am good with it as it is. I think it would be useless to try and get a straight answer from CAD Support on that also.

Hey, it is real good to hear that you will be reunited with your SLP shortly. I bet you are loving that news. And since you didn’t mention it, I am assuming that, at least for the time being, they didn’t tell you what was broke..

Backing off the gain knobs gradually until it sounds best (listen carefully) and you are good to go.

@avanti1960 I am actually going to try this. With your L and R ’input level’ knobs backed off to where you feel is optimal, where is your ’listening level’ (the big knob) usually at?

Oh, and on edit:  I do have some vintage RCA black glass vt231s in my balanced input sockets (#3 & #6) and I am working on four more.  I am also working on a vintage 5AR4. 

@desktopguy 

could you explain to me what you mean by this?

but it also risks the audibility of any channel-tracking non-linearity in any give volume pot.

Thanks.

@desktopguy

thanks for the explanation.

I am actually the OP on this thread, & one of my questions/concerns was "am I losing anything, sonically, by having to keep my volume pot backed off to a low setting?" It sounds as if I may be.

6 oclock is my volume pot backed all the way off. Normal listening volume for me depends upon the CD (how loud, or I guess how much gain(?) of the CD itself) but it is usually at or about 9 oclock & sometimes, but not often, as high as 10:30 or 11 oclock. I would think it would be screaming at me if I ever put it at 12 oclock. (Part of this is probably due to the small listening room I am presently in.)

As far as what you said about nonlinearity at volume pot extremes, a little while back ago I was messing around with a Sheffeiel Labs test CD that I bought a long time ago & I came upon a test I had never done, & that involved a test tone & the instructions were to put the leads of a voltmeter on the speker wire terminals & compare the readings of both speakers. I did note that one was a bit higher than the other, so I used one of the balance pots of the preamp to make them even. This was a while ago, but I think I remember doing tube swapping on the preamp to see if the discrepancy followed the tubes, & I was thinking, at the time (if I hadn’t confused myself) that it was following the position of 2 tubes (L & R) for the balanced inputs of the preamp.

After reading your replay, I guess I should repeat that test & see if I was correct about it following those tubes.

Anywy, thanks again for the explanation.