yohimey" odds are the first caveman who sold his cave planned to kill the cave buyer with his club ,"
No that is complete fiction ancient civilizations had no concept of land ownership that is a western European concept that then was adopted by the US and perverted in to one of the most disfunctional economies possible because of your corrupt government and big business and the simple fact that you have this idea at all about cheating in such a deal reflects that you are part of this corrupt unsustainable failing econcomic system. |
Buying and selling.... odds are the first caveman who sold his cave planned to kill the cave buyer with his club , and keep his cave to sell it again, but the cave buyer brought a bigger club and the deal went down! Cave and rocks were exchanged. The cave seller was pretty pissed and say he wont ever sell his cave again. Now reverse the order of the two cavemen , same game just different outcome. I personally have bought and sold alot around 200 items, and i got burned 3x and came out fine for the rest, bitchin about it dont change the game, the seller dont always win, the buyer sometimes gets burned, ever buy a lemon only to resell it , i have, better to suck it up and take it than bitch and moan about ebay and audiogon and paypal , and credit cards .
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@moto_man - let me count off some reasons why --It all started back in the 60's for me.. fm joins the musical "revolution " and many discover music via FM . theres something about using an electronic device that functions in analog and is known for either its ability to function at the zenith of the technology or is mediocre in performance just like any other device. Some would say that analog FM sounds better than the digital variety.. The major hang up for me is while there are FM stations remaining.. (non commercial) my choice of stations are rare indeed and for me its likely that only major metropolitan areas will have music formats and the style or type of DJ that I want to hear on air between those songs. For starters No commercials with someone trying to sell something or talking about the monday , monday, monster truck rally.. .. A DJ that is involved with the station because they just want to connect via a musical sensibility. As mentioned,, this is difficult to find. Often college stations will fit the bill,, at least part of the time,, depending on ones musical taste. At any rate-- I will be trying at some point after I put up my unobtanium APS 13 yagi antenna and see if there is anything worthwhile in Chico or Sacramento.. Not promising but one never knows.. Its fun looking and even better to find something worthwhile. |
I had an extra Oppo 205 brand new and decided to sell it here. eBay sellers had them going 3999 to 5999. God forbid I listed it at 2100. I received harassing messages non stop. Even after I dropped the price a little. Many were down right threats! Who has the time to type a full paragraph complaining to someone? I just got so tired of them... |
@moto-man.....................
I still listen to FM radio, daily. I have an excellent McIntosh FM tuner in my office system and I listen to it 8 hours a day. I also have another McIntosh FM tuner in my main rig which I listen to on the weekends, you guessed it I listen to FM.
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@moto_man
You could say the same thing about vinyl but it has stayed the course.
There will always be a niche market for certain sources.
Sure most people think cassettes are junk but I have quite a few really well mastered ones that are still a delight to play. |
@skiroe, people still listen to FM? Why? With Spotify, Pandora, Tidal, randomized playlists, etc., why would anyone want to buy an FM tuner and listen to FM?
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Kdude166:
My friend, if you are only gonna stay on the "buy" side of transactions, you will have a houseful of gear over time. Yeah, I say the same thing about drinking after having a couple too many the night before, then I come back to reality. I will drink too much again and I will buy and (consequently) sell audio gear again. I am powerless against both urges.
Tis a buyer's market, no question, in the aftermarket these days. I picked up an Ayre QB-9 DAC for $500 a couple of months ago... the best audio bargain I have ever gotten. I have taken a loss on virtually every piece of audio gear I have sold, and most of it was bought used to begin with. On some gear it was a loss of a couple hundred bucks and on some speakers as much as a grand. Frankly, it was all good fun. What I don't understand are the brutal beatings guys take on a uber high end gear -- particularly goofy expensive cables. I have never played in that realm of audio gear, but selling a pair of $10K speakers cables for $4500 would an experience I would not want to experience.
My view is that this is a brilliant time to acquire gear at great price via AG and the other audio forums. Some counterparties can be a PITA to deal with (i.e., ultra low-ballers), but I have made a ton of audio friends over the years buying and selling gear so net-net, it is a great way to connect with music lovers. Kicking issues like this about with folks like Kenny and others on this forum is always informative. |
Hi fellows,
Good afternoon!
Cherish the golden selling time before the next financial crisis arrives! Hi-end gears are of course overpriced. The second hand market price reflects what it really worth. Very few Hi-end gear can be categorized as artwork. Most of them are just consumer electronics. Imagine a seller lists a 7 years old iphone 4 in mint condition for 200 usd (66% off retail price)
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To flesh out the tuner part-- Will be very difficult to get close to what I would like for whichever tuner or turners that I sell although I have seen some high bidding on Ebay over the years. Go figure.. It all just depends what one is selling and if there happens to be someone on a mission to get what is being sold.
At any rate, hearing others on here regarding the nightmares that can unfold has one trying to come up with a way to ensure that a buyer can not just return on a whim.
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@whiskeypirate, moto_man--- I had some communication as well with a Cyprus seller a year ago or so re/Icon tube preamp . He was going to send it to Britain for voltage conversion if I recall. I didn't go for it , felt it a bit odd to be entering into such a long distance transaction.
I have been buying and selling on here since 03. I have had mostly good results . A poster earlier pointed out that being the market for A'gon has been greatly expanded which has brought in many , many others that normally would not be on this site and are not particularly grounded in the respectful style of negotiation that many here have cultivated whether selling or buying.
I have not been selling or buying for quite awhile and gearing up to move some equipment out. Although, that may not be so easy with my tuners due to the rarity and the work that has been done by qualified techs ,,esp techs that have quite solid reputations in the FM tuner world. That world of course being likely the smallest niche of music listeners. I have moved out of the bay area and have now resorted to listening to my favorite stations via the internet. I did sell a Burgess custom 2A3 SET amp a few months back and was delighted with the smooth transaction as well as the seller paid my asking with no hiccup what so ever.
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As a seller, when you use the "make offer" button on Audiogon, you've pretty much opened yourself up to just about any offer imaginable, low ball or otherwise. While I agree lowball offers are infuriating, If you expect to get 70 to 80 percent of retail, you're just not being realistic in expectations. This is especially true about used cable purchases. IMO. |
There are many jerks out there however this being said there are still many good buyers. |
granted there are lowballers trying to get lucky. If they succeed one out of 300 times, they will forever keep trying to recreate that high.
Sellers are at the mercy of how much of a market there is for their particular product. For example, if you browse multiple selling sites, there are Revel Salon's selling for $5800, $11,000 and $14,000. As of today, all 3 have been listed for months. All 3 sellers have different motivations for selling and different reasons for pricing. Usually the sellers who are in love with the system they bought think everyone else should be equally in love with it and pay accordingly. While buyers live in a world where most of what is sold as used is no longer the model being sold and has been updated - therefor making it obsolete and worth less.
My quality 20 year old speakers sound no worse than any new high end speaker in the same price range. I sympathize with those saying they would rather keep it than dump it for almost nothing. after all, quality doesn't (shouldn't?) go out of style.
But here are realities I wrestle with: try buying an expensive speaker only to have a newer version released 6 months later. If you try to exchange it at the dealer you will get 25% to 40% less than what you paid. WHY?
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@whiskeypirate, I have seen ads from a guy in Cyprus . . . don't know if its the same guy, but how many people from Cyprus advertise equipment on here? I always thought that it was weird, and, although all seemed legit, I wasn't interested in dealing with someone in Cyprus, no matter how good a deal or his feedback. At least you got your money back. I would have disputed the exchange rate charge with Visa. The change in rates is not your problem. |
I was scammed by a dealer about a year ago. I purchased a Kiseki Blue NS cartridge from him and felt confident in his feedback. The Cartridge was listed in North Dakota, the member was in Cyprus, yes, Cyprus as in the Mediterranean Sea. He had me call him and assured me that the cartridge would ship immediately after I paid, so I paid with my Visa card. His add stated he only had ONE at that price, a day later he still had the add posted and received a higher price than mine, keep in mind, I already paid. I called him and left several messages, no response. Then I contacted my credit card company to stop payment suspecting a scam. He was rude, and full of excuses and when I was credited from him he shorted me $6 because of the exchange rate. He was NEVER located in North Dakota, and Audiogon sided with him when I left him negative feedback. So I get screwed for $6 and I'm unable to at least warn other members to stay away from him. Im starting to just keep my old equipment and will build a second system.
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My initial point was really related to the numbers of flaky buyers and then lowballing and or ones who negotiate down the price and despite seeing several photos and having a very clear and fair description of the item then nit pick and threaten to try to return or negotiate further. |
+1 moto_man,
there is a ton of used equipment available, law of supply & demand.
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oddiofyl, you assert: "So many Pay Pal scammers." I suspect you haven't had any real experience. I've sold hundreds of luxury items through Audiogon and my own website and my preferred payment method is PayPal since, unlike credit cards, they associate a bank account with a "confirmed" shipping address for which they promise seller protection. I've never been burned using a PayPal transaction. I can't say the same for credit cards. Perhaps the increase in price perceptions is due to the fact that there are now many dealers offering trade-in and demo items for sale? |
I've never really had a problem buying or selling. Have got ridiculous lowball offers and told the offerers to get lost. One buyer claimed my fault shipment damage and filed a claim but PayPal disagreed with him, so in the end still no effect on me. Will continue to buy and sell. |
Shadorne.
Sorry but when you have a great product at an already very fair price and you STILL get offers at 50% of your asking price (or less in a couple of instance) then it would try the patience of a saint.
And usually this has been accompanied by many irreverent emails even when you politely tell them their offer is not acceptable to but the product.
In general the whole attitude from buyers has changed considerably over the past 20 years with rudeness and brusque arrogance being all too common. |
This is a great conversation. I am considering selling some of my unused gear and it is good to have a heads up. I have been buying used high end gear for 25 years and have never had a problem with a seller. I recently purchased my second Counterpoint SA-1000 preamp in pristine condition for $400. Part of the fun is troubleshooting and tweaking to get the best out of your system. Maybe some of the new audiophiles do not have the patience... |
That has not been my experience with Agon at all. I've been on here since 2001 and have bought and sold a bunch of equipment. I have never had a problem, either as a buyer or a seller. When I recently sold some gear, did I get some lowball offers? Sure. I either ignored them or politely responded that the offer was too low for me to consider. You can't fault someone for trying to get the best price that they can, no more than you can fault a seller for asking for top dollar. You never know when someone just wants to unload something. I'm not insulted by a lowball offer, nor should anyone else be insulted. Just ignore it. I personally think that Agon is doing a great job in facilitating the used high end audio market. Try using USAudiomarket or eBay. Not even close. |
Sellers blaming Audiogon for the customer and market?
If if you don’t have a good product at a fair price then guess what....
Just the other day I encountered a dealer wanted only 30% off of list price for 10 year old amplifier. As a negitiation tactic I was offered 2.5% discount if I paid cash. I kindly explained that I can find a new (less than 1 year) one for only 5% more and the new one would not be dinged up with deep scratches where the paint on the chassis was rubbed off. The same amp is still listed two months later....price dropped 2%...it will probably list for 9 to 18 months before sale with incremental discounts of 2% each month.
Classic example of seller knows better than the market or buyer.....
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Only local cash and carry sales for me as of 18 months ago! Totally disgusted with PayPal scammers and low ballers wasting our time with offers less than 25% retail, even for current iteration gear. Agree that I’d rather keep or gift my used gear rather than reward these jerks or have my payment again reversed by PayPal. Also agree that it’s not only Audiogon. That said, I’ve had more quality buyers on US AudioMart although responses are much slower, sales often taking 6 months or more.
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Fussy. Picky. Hand-holding.
Blame it on the Millennials!
tomcarr you said it. They have more money than brains and expect everything handed to them on a silver platter. Then the hand holding begins. It's because mommy and daddy took care of everything for them. Spoiled brats IMO. They should have been disciplined more when they were children. |
Fussy, fussy, fussy!
I’m never going to be able to sell another item after the one and only item I ever sold was greeted with damning feedback by the buyer.
I casually glanced at the faceplate of the amplifier I was selling (and had just bought, myself), and found no visual blemishes. I advertised it as such.
Well, the dogs of hell descended on me from the buyer who found multiple blemishes and was highly irate.
Who the hell looks at an amplifier with a magnifying glass? When it’s in a system. It’s pretty well blended in with the rest of the components. You don’t buy a stupid looking box for its beauty. You buy it for how it sounds!
He claimed he won’t be able to sell it in that condition. Well, I bought it. I had no problems with it. I only sold it because it was not compatible with my system.
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Oh I don't know. I've only had a limited number of transactions on Audiogon and only encountered one rude idiot. That's not bad at all compared to what I've found on eBay. Craigslist, despite what you hear, has always been easy and cordial. That's likely because Craigslist items are low dollar compared to Audiogon. Yes, sales have slowed notably here. What used to be snapped up in half an hour may well now not sell at all. Oh well. If you're a dealer that's serious. If you're just having fun, ces't la vie.
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I wouldn't be so upset over the current nature of buying and selling. This is indicative of what is going on all over the place. people have this sense that there is such a thing as free lunch. In the buyer/seller market, you are now seeing on TV/cable a whole series of flippers. They try hard to rip off sellers by pretending to be nice and complaining about their costs, etc. So, they try to buy as low as they can, not tying to be fair (why should they?) same is true here. If you bought items with the thought that you will recover your costs later, that is a fallacy. Enjoy your equipment and sound. Don't be in a hurry or desperate when selling and be patient. Ignore low ballers and just wait. There will be someone out there looking for that particular piece. I have bought many items on Audiogon and I have never asked for a reduction in the asking price. If I think the asking price is too high, I move on. I have sold many items here also. I typically price items below the market price. I price to sell. However, I never sell to low ballers. That is just insulting to me. They, like me, know what the average blue book price of the item is. A person wanting the item for their system to listen to music will meet a fair asking price. A person that is a flipper wants the lowest price they can get, and they lowball. Kindly ignore them. enjoy |
I sold a pair of speakers on ebay, or at least I thought i did. The guy was hot to get them and we negotiated up to my full price. He paid immediately with PayPal. He called me the next morning begging me to give him his money back. I thought about it and declined. He became such a huge problem that the only way to resolve the issue was to return his money. The personalities out there can be down right wicked. He was an englishman on the east coast. It seemed like I got a more reasonable type on audiomart. Audiogon got expensive and there were too many low ballers. Audiomart is free, so far, and there is really nothing to lose by posting on audiomart IMHO.
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I have found the same is true on usaudiomart as well. Unfortunately my experience on Audiogon has been that way for years. Nothing new. Fleabay has it's own problems as well, namely too $$$ to sell items. One gets exposure but loses almost 20% on each sale.
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to paraphrase winston churchill, agon is the worst system for sellers except for all the others--ebay is a total crapshoot and craigslist is overwhelmed by lowballers and outright scammers. from my experience, the substantial majority of buyers here are gentlemen and enthusiasts who deal fairly, but as others have said you're best off dealing only with members with a proven track record.
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I have been really fortunate, I generally ignore the unreasonable low offers
i have also had a few absolute saints lately, USPS lost a Benz Ebony H and the buyer was just amazing....
ups managed to deliver three boxes over three days with a weekend between.....
again, sainthood
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The issue probably has more to do with the fact that Audiogon seems to have become more mainstream over the years. Your initially closed-circle audio crowd has fallen prey to the likes of search engines that any idiot on the internet can operate. Audiogon’s marketplace ads are listed across the web now. Your trade-off is more potential customers, but also more undesirable customers. If Audiogon can’t regulate, then regulate your sales yourself by enforcing higher purchasing standards on your potential buyers. Minimum feedback requirements, phone call to purchase, etc.
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@cowan217.
agreed that the likes of usaudiomart look like they were designed by a 5 year old, i would not buy from there mostly because it is so hard to even find what you are looking for.
At least ebay and agon have well laid out sites with great search and sort features.
Now if sellers could just sort the buyers before they even waste time.....
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I have to admit that I have both bought and sold here (mostly bought) and all of my transactions have been smooth, knock on wood. So perhaps I have just been lucky. Everyone I have dealt with has been fair and good natured.
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One thing I could clarify is my perspective transcends Audiogon and audio itself.
We might consider the Sputnik moment for consumers gone off the rails the woman who with no sense of shame or decency returned the Christmas tree to Costco this past holiday |
just looked at Audioasylum for the first time based on the question above- ouch- what a convoluted site! Looks like something from 2000 or so- |
I’ve been a member since 2001 and have not listed anything in years. I have a tone arm and some power cables that I would like to part with. Since Audiogon instituted their new fees, I pretty much lost interest in selling. These reports of idiot buyers further reinforces my inclination to not list items for sale.
On the plus side, I’m happy with what I have. The extra stuff can just live in the closet for now.
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Is it your experience that this is the case on other sites such as US Audiomart and Audioasylum, or is it mostly an Audiogon phenomena?
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This thread reinforced my decision to buy sell locally, shipping is a pain. So many Pay Pal scammers.......
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I agree with the sad state of the used market sellers.
I've been a part of this site since it began almost 20 years ago. Buying and selling always went smoothly, and with almost zero issues. I've even met people who've become friends by way of transactions. Audiogon used to serve as a central cog in the market, funding additional new and used purchases by a large number of folks. Two to three years ago, I noticed something happened, and the entire thing mostly shut down. I have no idea how the manufacturers have survived, as again, this site primed the pump for the engine.
Haven't sold much over the past few years, but wanted to dump a bunch of gear over the past couple of months. The audacity of some of the lowballers surprised me even as I've received hundreds of lowball offers over the years. How about a $50 offer for a current production component that retails for close to $5k, with several other $200 and $300 offers? No thanks. As others have said, I'd give it to a friend, family member, or young person with some interest, or even on Craigslist before that.
One person actually began contacting me, and continues to do so. He explained that no matter what the ad lists, even if it's below market value, he won't go beyond 70% of that asking price. His initial bid is always 20-25%, and he's willing to work up from there. Ironically, he ended up paying over $4000 for an item I listed initially for $2500, as I found a buyer I felt more comfortable with.
Best was a guy with ZERO feedback, and a member for just a few months who lowballed me, eventually came together on a price, never sent payment, berated me, disappeared, reappeared with another lowball offer when I reduced my asking price, I demurred as he gave me a bad feeling at every juncture, then sent me a lengthy email claiming I'm a fraud, and my "stellar" 18 years of feedback was a complete fabrication, made up of shills, fictional transactions, and some folks I conned and some I paid for
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I spent 40 years in the Real Estate business. It always amazed me when buyers wanted to start nitpicking and renegotiating their deal half way through escrow. It was especially bad during my last ten years in the business. I just chalked it up to the constant slide downward that our civil society has taken.
The days of doing business on a hand shake are long gone.
Frank |
I hear and feel the pain
Been on ebay since the early days 2000 or so and it has NEVER been as depressing and volatile as a seller as the last couple of years have wrought.
So many "buyers" who think they can just claim they never received it ( despite tracking info!) or it was defective etc.
Paypal instant refund to them and they dont even have to ship it back!
Now I have been VERY lucky here, a lot of good sellers and buyers I have dealt with but.....
This year for sure had some VERY dubious potential buyers wanting a very fairly priced item for peanuts to start with AND giving bad vibes right from the start. This has happened 3 times and all 3 I have just told them I prefer not to sell anything to them as just not worth my time and potential hassle.
A couple got enraged over that and had to end up blocking them and reporting them to admin.
For sure it is a buyers market, always has been to some extent but the rudeness and arrogance that is increasingly common now is very hard to deal with.
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It is a hassle to sell used audio equipment. And it is getting harder to sell high-end components at a fair price because the market for high end equipment is shrinking. |
Been here since early 2000s and I feel there’s always been this element to the user base, and it’s not really that much worse these days. I think maybe you had a lucky streak for a while and then hit an unlucky streak.
I’ve had really good transactions in my time here, but as I buyer I rarely haggle, never tire kick, and hold back minor complaints (this is USED gear after all); as a seller I’m picky in whom I choose to respond to. I judge them on the style and content of their initial communication, and often don’t feel the need to take things further. |
FM tuners are a hard sell these days
Maybe there will be a tuner resurgence like vinyl. |
FM tuners are a hard sell these days. |
Then there was the guy who bought a $1970.00 Magnum Dynalab FM tuner from me for $400.00 and then after using it a couple of days, decides he doesn't like it and either wants his money back, or wants more money off the tuner ...
Oh-oh, and I was thinking of selling my MD102T |
Those Millennials!
Buying not only stereos, but cars too!
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