Thumbs up for ultrasonic record cleaning

Hi Terry - If you meant that my statement about trying to cause damage intentionally did not pan out in this instance, I have no problem being 'inaccurate' about that. :-).  I had not tried to damage a record in the way you described and was speculating.  You are to be congratulated for conducting the experiment and reporting on it!  Although it is a single test, it seems to be good news.

When you say  you "let it cook for more than an hour" I took that to mean you let the record simply sit in the USC subjected to constant cavitation

Was the ultrasonic frequency constant throughout?  What was the frequency?  And what was the water temperature?  I suspect the water temperature rose as the US machine operated.  Did you use only water or a solution?  Can you say what machine you used?

This seems to be relevant news and adds to what we're learning about cleaning records via a US machine.  I'd like to suggest you document your experiment and observations and present that here as a new post for more to see.  Thanks for the follow-up.

@jtimothya

Hello JT. What I was trying to say is, not only is there no evidence of damage from US, there is evidence of no damage from US. Since the latter is a stronger statement, perhaps it is more accurate in some sense. That’s all. Both Slaw and I have done such tests.


From my post of March 6:

Methodology:
1. Wash both sides with VPI 16.5.
2. US clean both sides for 5 minutes.
3. Turn off the motor, so that one sector of the record remained in the US bath.
4. Cooked the record in US for an hour.
5. Removed the record from the bath, and rinse.
6. Play on a high end system, expecting a change every second or so.
7. Observed no change or difference of any kind.
8. Concluded that US does not damage vinyl.

Of course, after cooking in the hot bath for an hour, the record was warped - but that is a function of heat unevenly applied, not US energy.

My US cleaning process:
1. Rotate at 12 RPH.
2. Clean at 80 KHz with Elmasonic machine (German, lab grade).
3. Chemistry is 2.5% VersaClean from Fisher Scientific.
4. Temperature is 45C.
5. Rinse heroically.


I applied my usual US cleaning process for the test, except that the temperature began at 45C and rose considerably, and ceased rotation as noted.

Thanks for your interest.

Thanks for that update, Terry.  I use an Elmasonic myself - v. nice machine.
Can you do dual-frequency?  If so, a similar test at ~38kHz would be equally as interesting and perhaps more profound.  45°+ is quite warm. 

Yes, my Elma is a dual frequency device, but I rarely use 37 KHz. 45C is warm, all right - but I find that, with my machine and its temperature sensor, nothing goes wrong until 52C. The test mentioned above, finished at considerably more than that. Hence the warp.

So i have had my electronic Record cleaner since August 2018, i have to say its amazing and competatively priced.

With a collection of over 5000 LPs,EPS,45s this has been a god send they clean up like new depending on the usage of the vinyl obviously

anyone who is looking to purchase one from the lovely gentleman i bought it from can knock one up for you.

For enquires please quote "SUPERSONIC1" to the following email address Cbaker@sky.com the is based in the UK

Hope that helps Happy cleaning

It's been a while...I've had my US machine off-line for a few months. I got it back on-line and running an adjusted solution. Since I'm committed to steaming first, I thought I'd reduce the Versa Clean. I'm currently using just 1 oz Versa Clean and 1/2 oz photo-flo in my 10 liter tank. 

This new solution is the first time I've heard it with my new SoundSmith Sussurro Mkll. What a big difference I'm hearing with the new cart. Notes a even fuller, dynamic expression is greater, vinyl is quieter. Loving it!

I’m happy with my newest cleaning solution. The stickiness on the rubber O-rings (Vinyl Stack), I reported a while back, was due to too much cleaning solution.

After the US cleaner has rested for 5 days, upon restart I notice what looks like short fine black hair. Not a lot. I assume this is vinyl "shavings".
I finally ordered my .5 micron filter to supplement my 1 micron filter. Should arrive today. I think I’ll install it after the 1 micron filter based solely on the higher cost of the .5 filter.

Really the visual "shavings" should be taken care of by the 1 micron filter. I think the real issue is either/or a lack of proper suction or not enough volume ability to be sucked out of the tank. Maybe a larger outlet of more strategically placed outlets?

For those of you with an Elma or similar unit, how is the design in this area. Maybe, like a household sink, the water outlet should be in the center of the tank?

Then again, maybe a 5 micron filter as the first filtering stage?

In other filter applications you start with coarse and proceed with
finer and finer etc.

@totem395 

Thank you for your post. As you see, my thought process had gone that way after mulling it over. It seems to make more sense.

My Degritter US cleaner makes cleaning records a cinch.
Drop record in, hit button, go do whatever else, and return to US cleaned and dried record.
Perfect for folks like myself who are too lazy for other methods.

@prof 

I'm glad there's a choice for us all. The main point is you're experiencing the benefits of US cleaning.

Well I’ve had the 5 micron filter in for a couple weeks now. I’m realizing (what I referred to as hairs or fibers earlier) now that the "slurry" that settles on the bottom of the tank after days of no use, is just that. I watched as I turned on the pump and started leading the output hose around the tank. Getting close to the bottom I can see that "slurry" being moved up into the water and then looks like fibers or hair.

One of the upsides of this set-up (or downsides of my Audio Desk) is I can see and clean the tank. With the AD, one is very limited in this regard.

So after two weeks with the 5 micron filter (complete water change), the water still looks clear. In the past, after several weeks, the water generally looks cloudy,(yellow). We'll see.

I'm now convinced with my current tank, (with it's placement of the internal water outlet and size), I need to get a larger output capacity pump to address my concerns. This will be the easiest, most cost effective way to go forward. 

For those of you with an Elma or similar unit, how is the design in this area. Maybe, like a household sink, the water outlet should be in the center of the tank?

@Slaw - Which Elmasonic machine do you use?  On the Elma P120h there are two rows of three transducers organized on the tank bottom.  I suspect that placing a drain in the center of the tank would disrupt that layout and possibly impact dispersion of the cavitation action.-

One idea is to run your pump/filter for 10-15 minutes prior to starting a cleaning session or alternatively do that every week whether you clean or not.  Another is to use a TDS meter to gauge water/solution purity. 

I don't know the layout of your setup.  Presumably you have the pump prior to the filter(s).  Not questioning your approach, I'm a bit surprised at the need for two filters.  Which cannisters do you use?  I switched to a .35 micron filter.  Have not seen the condition you describe.

@jtimothya

I don’t own an Elma.

I actually have the pump after the filters. My thinking was this would increase the pump’s lifespan.

Installed the larger pump this morning. Went from 1gpm to 1.2gpm.

I would like to get a TDS meter. (Actually, just ordered one)

I have my set-up posted on my virtual system page.

I’m about 30 records into using the Audio Desk and it really does an amazing job. My only problem is that (1) the rollers on one side seem to struggle a little bit and don’t fully contact the record all the way up, which sometimes leave a strip of uncleaned surface on the inside. (2) the water level only usually gets to half way through the last track, which means that area doesn’t benefit from ultrasonic. Anyone else have these problems?

@mayoradamwest,

Did you purchase your AD used?

The AudioDeske has a sensor that indicates low water level. If that is not working, it needs to be repaired.  Mine had that problem. Check with your dealer. 

I’ll pull the rollers and try to reinstall but I don’t think that’s it. Also, for water level it gets very close to perfect. Do you all just add a little more water to make the water level go higher?

Yes, just add a little more water.

Got it. Will do. Was afraid of break such an expensive machine. Overall, though, couldn’t be happier with it. I just can’t believe I waited this long to get one. 

Let us know mayor.

I believe the slightly stronger pump helps clear my tank out better. The water still turns yellowish at around one month, (using distilled water). Look forward to checking it when the meter arrives. I still do two rinses then a vacuum rinse after the US cleaning.

Another example of why DIY is better than Audio Desk, IMO:

I just listened to my copy of Eels "Daisies of the Galaxy" that was previously cleaned by my steam/AD method as of early 2018. It was ticky all throughout. I re-steamed it with the AI "down with dirty concentrate" then put it through my DIY US cleaner at 45min/45C/9V setting on the Vinyl Stack. The ticking is 98% gone, along with greater dynamic impact.

@slaw 

Didn't see your July posting until now.

The Elma has the drain on the right hand side. Since it is very finely controlled (down to drop by drop), I clean my solution by (1) arrange a clear plastic drain line with a dip in the middle (2) let the chemistry rest for a few hours (3) begin the drip into a clean jug (4) wait overnight (5) remove the jug of clean chemistry (6) rinse everything.

The chemistry is pretty clean, no noticeable fibre. I love letting Mr. Newton do the work!

The Elma has the drain on the right hand side. Since it is very finely controlled (down to drop by drop), I clean my solution by (1) arrange a clear plastic drain line with a dip in the middle (2) let the chemistry rest for a few hours (3) begin the drip into a clean jug (4) wait overnight (5) remove the jug of clean chemistry (6) rinse everything.

I don't understand how dripping solution into a clean jug overnight does anything to clean the solution.  (By 'solution' I assume this means water + chemicals.) 

Can you say more?

With my DIY setup, I do no rinses and I air dry the records. Rinsing is an unnecesary step that adds time, especially if it is done one record at a time on a horizontal vacuum which also adds considerable mess.

When records are pulled from the tank after a wash cycle if the water on the record is clean then the records will be clean when they dry. The key is keeping the tank water clean during the cleaning cycle.
More here:https://thevinylpress.com/timas-diy-rcm-follow-up-2-compelling-changes-improved-results/

totally agree. I got a CV about a month ago. Incredible. Like having a new collection.

I’ve had my TDS meter for two weeks now. I checked the water last week that was changed a week prior, the ppm reading then was 40. A week later the ppm reading is 59. Remember, I pre-clean/steam every lp before it hits the US cleaner.

@jtimothya ,

IMO, saying rinses are unnecessary as a blanket statement, is false. Everyone has there own cleaner and depending upon how much is used, will vary and and getting all of the residue off will vary as well.

( "Time consuming" ..... we're all in the hobby of playing/cleaning vinyl records. If one in this hobby is concerned with time, maybe they should look for another hobby or software ?)

No worries @slaw  - If you prefer a DIY system that includes rinsing, go for it.  With a TDS meter reading of 40-59ppm I certainly would rinse.  It's good you're using a meter.

In the context of my DIY setup, rinsing is an unnecessary time-consuming step.  When I pull records out of the cleaning tank the water on them consistently measures 003-005ppm so no need to rinse.  I change the USC tank water if that number goes higher - that's typically after 65-75 records or so.

Each spends his time as he will. I confess I'd rather listen to music than clean records. 

@jtimothya ,

I’m using distilled water. What are you using?
..................................
I just testing clean distilled...showed 0 ppm
Versa-Clean undilluted...showed 1358 ppm

I miswrote...Versa-Clean ...showed 3189 ppm undilluted.

I think next time I replace the water, I'll check the new mixture with my meter and go from there.

@slaw - Into ~2.75 gallons distilled water I add 1⅓ cups 99% pure Isopropyl Alcohol (roughly 3%) and 0.9 tablespoons of Ilfotol (wetting agent used in final rinse of photograph development.)  In a fresh tank that combination checks out at ~0002ppm.  It stays low thanks to continuous filtering at 0.35 microns.

I agree - always a good idea to to do a TDS test on anything under consideration as a cleaning agent, both by itself and diluted. 

@jtimothya 

Dripping overnight allows the sediment to settle out. Almost all of it.

Dripping overnight allows the sediment to settle out. Almost all of it.

@terry9 - That's interesting - thanks for the follow-up.  Guess I'm still a bit unclear.  Where does the dirt in solution settle or get captured?  In the tank, the dip of your drain tube or in the jug?

Have you considered using a filter? 

I seem to have solved my problem with the "slurry" I notice in the bottom of my tank after sitting for 5 days. In addition to circulating the water, I turn the cleaner on for 5 min. That has taken care of it. The additional filter doesn't seem to help that issue much. I am going to try a 5 micron carbon block filter in my next batch of water to see how it performs with my TDS meter checks.

Slaw describes this as a slurry, which is correct in every sense - I should have thought of that.

The slurry/sediment primarily collects at the bottom of the tank and most of the remainder collects in the dip of the drain tube. With 95% of the cleaning chemistry safely in the jug, I simply rinse out the tank and tube with pure water, second rinse with distilled, and re-use the chemistry.

Yeah, I’m a cheap SOB - and no, I haven't considered a filter because I don't think it would be as good.

Slaw describes this as a slurry, which is correct in every sense - I should have thought of that.

Okay - let's say that covers insoluables.  What makes you think the "95% of the cleaning chemistry safely in the jug" is any cleaner than it was in the tank?

FWIW: I'm on my fifth week of this round of cleaning solution and the yellowish tint isn't as noticeable as before on many previous (4 week) changes. I've actually increased the Versa-Clean in this batch  as well. Go figure.

@jtimothya 

It's only cleaner in terms of suspended solids, not in terms of soluble compounds. As Slaw notes, the yellow color fades to brown with use. After about 100 records, I change the chemistry. Arbitrary, but probably on the safe side.

The Hotor AC/DC adapter I bought to power my Bay-lite RV pump...... I just had to replace the two prong AC end. The wire/insulation is crap. You can almost cut through it like butter.

My tank quit on me. Upon draining the water, I noticed the filters. I'm using two, one is a 1 micron/5" long, the other is 5 micron/10" long. Both are the same type/brand from Hydronix. The 5 micron I had recently added to the system and it is first in-line. It is noticeable dirtier than the other one and actually dirtier than any filter I've ever used and checked since I've set this system up. Maybe it's the additional length? 

I've put myself on the waiting list for a Vibratto 6L/80khz machine. Any thoughts?

The additional length means twice the surface area of the smaller filter.  I wonder if there is any back pressure from the smaller one?
My original USC tank made in China started malfunctioning.  it was replaced by the dual frequency p120H unit from Elmasonic

Finally received my new Vibrato www.vibratollc.com  10 quart/80khz unit.
It has a frequency sweep feature/6 transducers.

So I'm starting off with my earlier/same cleaning/pre-cleaning methods, same cleaning fluid. I'm using Versa-Clean @ 2 Tbl per gal and Kodak Photo-Flow @ 1/2 Tbs per gallon. I rinse under tap water then a final rinse with distilled. Then to the VPI for another distilled rinse/dry.

The Vibrato is not as tall as my former Chinese tank which works out well with the Vinyl Spin as at it's most extended height, the lps are completely out of the water. 

Upon having everything filled and ready to go with the carbon filter I had bought before the old tank bit the dust, I fired it up and black water was filling the tank...... Note to self, (Always, run water through a new carbon filter well, before initial use). Now that is out of the way, the first thing I noticed is how quiet the unit is! What a welcome nicety. 

This unit seems to be a couple of notches above the Chinese tank in several ways. It's functions match (other testing measurement methods) more closely than the old unit. Like the actual heat setting....it's within 1 degree C of it's display. 

More to come..............

On the Chinese cleaner I was always setting the heater @ 45 C with no real noticeable changes during the cleaning cycle. With the Vibrato, I'm using 38 C with the temperature rising to slightly above 40 C in a 30 minute cycle. Oh yeah, I was using a 40 minute cycle on the other cleaner.

Yes, the Vibrato allows 1 degree increments whereas the other was in 5 degree increments. Another big plus here!

The Vibrato has a degauss feature. According to the "manual", if you run the unit for ten minutes with the cover on, in your later cleaning cycle, the temp will not vary as much. Well, for whatever reason, this works. Whether or not it helps in any way, I cannot say.