@alf77,
It would be hard to expand on @terry9 eloquent post except that to ask how committed you are to vinyl and if you’re in it for the long haul. If your answer is, I am & yes, the US cleaning method is a no-brainer.
I’ve been exploring my new filtering system today. Everything runs great, no leaks. It is an extremely nice, effective addition to the process. I’ve been focusing on 3 lps I’ve previously cleaned several times for my initial evaluation.
I’ll just mention two now.....Robyn Ludwick "Out of These Blues". This one has been previously cleaned by 3 different methods. I am a huge proponent of pre-steaming for years and always did it prior to using my AD US cleaner.
I just put it through my US cleaner earlier this week w/o the filtering system and plain distilled water. I just listened again with the filtering system and distilled water with the AD cleaner additive.
(Lyle Lovett "Pontiac"...same history of past/previous cleaning. I’ve listened to these two lps twice this week. Immediately upon putting it on today, I noticed a more spacious sense of a bigger studio, much more involving, more lifelike. This was always an excellent recording in terms of SQ.)
This is for the RL lp...Upon listening, I immediately noticed more inner detail, a more relaxed presentation along with a quieter surface noise. This lp had what I previously thought was inherent, unremoveable surface noise. It just became noticeably quieter. While this isn’t a reference recording, (I’d give it around an 8 for sonics) it is much more enjoyable now.
Looking forward at some point to following the previously mentioned DIY fluids and more pure water.
Have fun!
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@Alf- That link you provided is almost a horror show of what not to do in my estimation. Using dish soap- sure it will work, getting it off is another matter- I suppose hot water will work but it isn't necessary to use some detergent with a lot of other chemicals perfumes, etc to clean an LP--
getting the labels wet- yeah, that's not good-
using tap water as a rinse- full of minerals.
My experience buying a lot of used records is that ultrasonic isn't a complete answer but complementary to more basic cleaning. Some I know pre-clean without a record cleaning machine and then pop in the ultrasonic.
I like the AIVS No. 15 cleaner for deeper cleaning- using it with a pad type applicator, like the Disc Doctor or MoFi makes for a very effective cleaning step. You must rinse this stuff off- I would use distilled water, perhaps a couple steps if doing it manually - with clean cloths. Then into a home brew ultrasonic.
Some users may go straight into the ultrasonic for kludged up records- but my experience was the best results came from a combination of methods, which you could do on a budget.
I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to brands- whatever works most effectively, with minimal harm caused to the records. |
I agree with Terry, Whart and Slaw
I’ve been pretty amazed at the difference in cleaning using the US approach. All of my records would have been cleaned at one time or another with a Nitty Gritty vacuum record cleaner and until the popularity of US cleaning vacuum cleaning was probably regarded as state of the art.
But there is no question that using a US method I’m getting my records cleaner and they sound better. If you do a broad web search on ultrasonic record cleaning you’ll get a lot of hits from people who feel the same.
As stated previously, my system is good, but not SOTA and there is no doubt that I’m hearing improvements. And as also stated, US can’t fix a record, but it can certainly get it clean and improve the sound quality.
I’m evolving my cleaning efforts based on feedback in this thread and I think the results continue to improve.
I’m a big fan of US cleaning and it also makes sense to me that the combination of US cleaning along with vacuum cleaning is also a winner, and so I vacuum after I clean, but I have no empirical data to back the claim that it is an improvement. But minimally the vacuuming also dries the records much quicker which I like quite a bit.
I'll be making some additional mods to my cleaning efforts over the next week or two and will add more info then.
Good luck |
A little late to the party, but here I am. My DIY kit came from Amazon today. I'm a believer. |
Welcome aboard @james1969 !
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In case anyone is interested...here is a list of the parts I ended up with for my filtering system:
(1) Bayliite model BYT-7A102 RV water pump from Amazon, rated at 12V, 3A,1GMP
(2) Hotor DC converter, Input 100-240V/50-60Hz, Output 12V DC +/- 1V, Max Amp 10A. ( From what I’ve read, I went with this higher rated output model because from other users’ experience across the board, sometimes these products are mislabeled at a higher output than the actual output). (Amazon)
(3) Roadpro 12V plug, (Amazon) This was not necessary but I thought a conveinience that has since proven to me to be just that. It’s just a simple plug adapter like one would use in their auto to run a 12 V device. One caveat...it comes with a 2Amp fuse, this isn’t enough, I bought a 10Amp fuse. Careful though, as it has to be 6mm x 30mm or it will not work. The benefit is, I use it to disconnect/connect power while I’m cleaning without stressing the two wire connectors. This may be just something I find useful.
(4) The Baylite pump has 3/8" NPT barbs, So in spite of the fact I bought the filter housing with 1/4" barbs, I bought 1/4" to 3/8" adapters (brass) for my fittings.
Then of coarse you use teflon tape on all of your fittings. This all matches the input/output of the pump and makes life easier in that one has to buy just one size of hose.
Enjoy!
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alf, doing a cost comparison between a US system VS replacing your bad records assumes you will then stop buying LPs. In addition to all the reasons posted here, it sounds like you may continue shopping for records in bargain bins, so a US will soon put you ahead cost wise.
terry9, how could you judge the sonics of a record if it was sealed? ;^) (Just pulling your chain, I expect you meant previously sealed.)
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@pryso ,
I can easily answer this for him..
In the context of the previous discussion, there was a reason to post one extreme from another. In the case that @terry9 sited, ...it was just a reminder that even if one buys a sealed lp, there’s no guarantee it will be in Mint condition.The chain lengthens........
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Sorry slaw, you missed my apparently bad attempt at humor. My question was how terry could evaluate a record if it was still sealed? Obviously that was not his intent, but that's the way it read.
On subject, I still utilize a VPI machine, although I intended to set up a US cleaner. I will say that I too have sometimes noted LPs which appear quite beat up but play cleanly, while I also have some which look "pristine" but do have pops or crackles. I'm hoping the US will eliminate those.
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@pryso ,
I think I really got the gist of your post. Your recognition of what I initially thought I perceived is refreshing to me.
So I stand by my my initial reaction.
"Obviously that was not his intent, but that's the way I read it".
Which is it?
I perceived it in the most remarkably unremarkable way.
IE: I think we're OK!
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Well I am 12 records in and completely sold on US cleaning. I did some old records and some new. One was even sealed since 1988. I played that one first and although 80s vinyl quality are infamously crappy, this pressing was fantastic. Especially for 80s Thrash Metal. But what sold me most was cleaning my early US-pressed Led Zep III. It went from a VG to arguably a NM record. And for this record, there are a lot of acoustic parts, so it was quite annoying with all the pops and ticks. Now, it's fantastic. I did a PF Animals early German pressing with similar results. A '73 UK pressing of PF's Darkside of the Moon, same result. Plays fantastic now. The only disappointment was my RL Led Zep II pressing. The thing is just mangled with scratches though :( But it definitely sounds better than it did before. I'm going to do another batch this afternoon. This is fun! |
@pryso @slaw
Damned if I don't feel like Samson ... |
@slaw @terry9
I also just put a pump together. Very similar to Slaw.
I used a slightly stronger motor from the same company - A108, 5 Amp, 1.2 gpm. But honestly, I think it's overkill. That pump moves a lot of water, so I wouldn't obsess about the power of the pump motor. A motor moving half the fluid seems like it would be plenty.
Nothing elegant about my solution, just a 1 micron filter, pump, and power supply. No housing.
I think Slaw's idea of using a plug to be able to connect and disconnect the power supply from the pump does seem convenient. Having a quick connect from the tank to the pump might also be convenient.
More to tinker with, but the net is this setup seems to clean the fluid very quickly.
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@phil0618 ,
Yeah, my little pump really has great output.
I’m still "tinkering" as well. What I’m doing now is cycling on the pump between each cleaning for around 1 & 1/2 minutes. When I figure the best way to secure the return hose in a logic/functional way so it will stay in a corner of the tank, I may try to run the pump while cleaning for a couple of minutes. Just a thought, I don’t know if would help or not.
BTW, at this point during my weekend cleaning, before the filtering system, I would have noticed the water becoming cloudy and the cleaned lps having some dust particles on them when removed. So far, this isn't happening at this stage of the weekend.
Still having fun.
@pryso @terry9, (Apologies for my interjection). My passion overrides good sense at times. Terry9, I realize this is the second time I've made an apology to you...you must be worried. haha!
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I use to tinker. I made my own cables, rack, RCM and I was considering to build my own TT and cartridge set. I was even considering making my own music and pressing my own vinyl. Then I woke up! I went down stairs. It was just a bad dream. 🖖✌️ |
slaw, no need to apologize. I thought my little teasing would be obvious to everyone but apparently it was not.
Anyway, not to detract from a serious subject (yes, I'd like to optimize the performance of my records too) but I can't resist a bit of fun from time to time. |
Worried? What, me worried? Arrggghhhhhh ..... |
I use Keith Monks vacuum machine. Built like a tank. Quick, easy, safe, no mess, no setup, minimal maintenance, and records sound great. Game over.
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Thank you so much, Terry, I will certainly have a deeper look into this. |
@psag- I have a Monks too (an Omni). If I had to choose one machine, that would be it. But the synergy of cleaning on the Monks and ultrasonic- in both directions-- brings more to the table. Try it. |
@terry9 @slaw A bit more tinkering. My US tank seemed suspect / deficient in a couple of ways so I tried a couple of things to address the problems. The issues with the tank were; It took forever to warm up and and the temp gauge never read above 38c. Based on commentary from Terry9 and others it seemed the target could/should be around 40c. So, I did two things. First, I bought a cute little thermometer from Risepro with a probe that goes in the tank while the gauge sticks to the outside of the tank via suction cup. All of $7 including shipping and it validated that the temp gauge on the US tank was wrong. The temp gauge on the tank was reading low by as much as 5c. So, while I might have seen a reading on the tank of 30c I was probably closer to 25-27c. The net is I think a thermometer is a worthwhile investment. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EYSGV9M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1Second, I bought a submersible aquarium heater to augment the heater in the tank. This was an attempt to both heat the water faster and sustain a higher temperature. While I think having some auxiliary heat source is useful, I don’t think aquarium heaters are the answer. Most of these max out around 93F, so at best it would help sustain about 34c, which is where I seem to be getting to. It’s an interesting idea as many of these are narrow enough to fit in the tank with the albums and fully submersible, but since they all seem to top out around 93F it’s not a true solution. Also, while it provides some assistance in warming the tank quicker it is not a real solution. My unit is only 50 watts, so selecting a unit with higher wattage would help, but there is only so much room in the tank so getting a unit that is physically larger poses challenges. The net, still searching for a solution to my heating issue. BTW, this is the tank I'm using https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M0328QT/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 The pump is useful and I’m using it between cleanings and it is definitely able to filter out the particulate, but the water still seems to get a bit murky over time so still learning about this. Lastly, I’ve simplified my solution. I’m just using 3 ounces of Versaclean - see @terry9 discussion earlier in the thread - and an ounce of photoflow with the remainder of the solution being distilled water. And then I finish off the effort on the Record Doctor. |
@phil0618 ,
I already had a thermometer on hand and checked mine over the weekend. My tank temp was 1 degree C over it’s setting. I’m running 45 degrees C which may be on the high side of comfortable for some but I have had no problems.
When I change out water, I’ll heat it up first in a big pot to put less stress on my tank’s heater. Of coarse this only works for that initial newly clean water but every little bit helps I guess.
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I've been experimenting a fair amount over the past week. At first, I was running the tank around 40-43 degrees Celsius, for 3 turns @ 7 mins/turn. So 21 minutes total. After reading more on the VPI forums, I decided to try Harry's recommendation of no heat (other than cavitation generated) and increasing the rotation speed. So I have been doing 10 minutes without heat @ 4.5 mins/rotation. Really, there's not much perceivable difference. It's a bit of apples to oranges or I'd say there is no difference. Although some records are going to need another bath because they still have a fair amount of pops and ticks. But this was even the case at 21 minutes. They are probably just beyond cleaning. What I don't agree with on the other forum thread is the loss of highs. Even at high heat for 21 minutes, I immediately noticed the opposite - increased upper treble extension. So maybe my gear isn't quite good enough to notice a loss in highs or maybe it's simply not happening (I suspect the latter). I think I've cleaned about 80 records so far. Still a loooong way to go. |
@audiom3,
My Vinyl Stack has various settings assigned to various (rpm). I use the 12v setting that is equal to 1 & 1/2 rpm (rotations per minute) for a 30 minute cycle @ 45C.
Again, I do pre-steam.
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@audiom3- don’t give up on a record just yet. One thing I learned, aside from the various fiddling you may do with the ultrasonic, is that a good old fashioned cleaning, using something like AIVS No. 15 and rinse will, in combination with US, sometimes take a record from noisy to clean. And it requires multiple cleanings sometimes too. It may not be worth the trouble for some easy to get, fairly cheap record, but if it is rare and valuable, well worth the trouble. I don’t rely exclusively on ultrasonic, but combine traditional cleaning with US and that’s where I’ve found the best results on troublesome records. (No guarantee- record could be permanently damaged, but sometimes, it works and worth the effort in the instances I mentioned). |
Wow, thanks guys.
@slaw No issues with treble for those longer/warmer sessions?
@whart Yeah, I do have a few more valuable records that are very noisy and would love to spend the time to clean them up if it's even possible. One that I really treasure is an RL/ss (both sides) Led Zeppelin II pressing. I just don't know how much is groove damage/scratches vs. dirt. As long as I'm not damaging the record, I don't mind wasting time on it experimenting. |
@audiom3,
I haven’t noticed any problems at all. In fact I notice the opposite effect, in this sense... the fact that the lp is cleaner, the stylus can retrieve more info and I mostly notice an increase in transparency, inner detail, w/ better defined/more musical bass. I’ve done 30 minutes/45C for almost as long as I’ve had the cleaner. I have done up to 50 minutes (this is the max recommended time for my cleaner) one time for a extremely nasty gift lp that ended up better than before.
I once left a new lp on a 30min./45C cycle and forgot to turn on the Vinyl Stack. I put it through another cycle and played it. I could not hear any hint of damage.
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@slaw Thank you for that! I feel a lot better now. I was worried some of the early experiments might have been softened a bit from higher/longer temps. But once records are US cleaned, the differences between warm and bright recordings are even more substantial. |
What @slaw said. Except I use 5 minutes per rotation. I even did the same experiment.
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audiom3once records are US cleaned, the differences between warm
and bright recordings are even more substantial. Agreed! If you really want to hear what's on your LPs, there's no substitute for US cleaning, imo. |
Great thread! I've been using a USRCM for a couple of years (I guess that may put me in the 'early adopter' catagory) however, I would not say I'm any expert at it, mainly due to a lack of time to really dial in the procedure. Where I'm at today is: Vinyl Stack system (though I built my own stand for it) with a 40kHZ bath, using the "Rushton method fluid", though I started with just distilled water and have moved to a 'chemistry'. 1 micron filter with a 1.2gpm pump. Being an 'early adopter', the timing was shorter than what most of you have described: I've been using 5 minutes. Heat is a must (~40C, I find the temp goes up with sonic usage, too). Is everyone drying with a vac? I have been doing that...but I really don't like the idea of touching the record after cleaning! So - I'm building a blower/dryer rack. Air is filtered, and really 'blows'. QUESTION: after pulling the records from the chemistry bath, how should I rinse? with the distilled water + alcohol mixture, then dry? I don't want any residue left on records. Or spots :)
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Rinsing - I just implemented a 3 stage water filter: 25 microns, 1 micron, 0.5 micron carbon block.
I clean using a conventional Vinyl Stack spinner. Then I transfer the stack to a high speed Vinyl Stack spinner, located in a sink. Then I rinse the stack in running water, first with 1 micron water, then 0.5 micron water.
Finally, I remove the stack from the high speed spinner and attach a VS handle, and rotate the stack in a bath of distilled water.
My tap water is very, very pure, and so this works a treat for me. YMMV, especially if your tap water isn't Wet Coast pristine. |
Another convert here. I have a 10L 40hz tank and a Vinyl Stack 3 LP combo. My process is:
Spin Clean to remove surface / loose debris and pre clean
Blot
US Clean using Rushton's formula at 35c. 1/3 RPM; 5 revolutions in 15min
Rinse
Nitty Gritty Vac Dry
My findings match most experiences. Clean LPs often exhibit a noise floor lower than that of my system. I hear much better transient response, and extreme HF. I hear much more air and space around musicians.
My take is that over time, a layer of dirt bonds to the groove surface walls. This layer is probably only a few microns deep, but it is enough to blunt the leading edges of transients, mask extreme treble extension, and the very low level audio cues that allow us to "hear" space. This layer is generally impervious to scrubbing. A US session removes this layer, exposing more of the very subtle modulations deep in the groove.
Regarding surface noise, even previously cleaned LPs exhibited a shhhhh-woooosh sound in the background and between grooves. After US cleaning, in many cases this sound is gone, and is replaced by silence.
On the other hand, surface damage is now more easily heard probably because the scratches are also cleaned of smoothing junk etc and the rest of the LP is now more quiet.
I have run into an issue where I hear more tics pops as I get closer to the label. I increased the amount of fluid in the US tank, and more carefully vac clean, which seems to have taken care of the problem.
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@iopscrl,
Welcome!
I try and make sure when I drop the Vinyl Stack into place that I eyeball the record grooves and make sure they are slightly under water...IE: equivalent to your adding more water.
Based on @terry9 last post, I'm experimenting with a slower rotation today @ 1 rpm every 2.5 minutes.
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I pulled out Ben Harper's "Both Sides of the Gun", yesterday. It had previously been cleaned with Disc Dr. fluid and a vacuum dry around 10 years ago?
I listened to it like that, then steamed it ( I use Audio Intelligent Down With Dirty Concentrate mixed @ 1.5 Tbs. per 16 oz.) brushed on then steamed off w/ distilled water, then a vacuum/rinse.
It isn't a reference disc but it is I'd say a solid 8. It has enough of every part of the frequency spectrum delivered at high enough level for anyone to hear what is there and what could be there. After hearing it improve somewhat just by steaming, then to the full US bath, it went up one notch to a 9. It's interesting and fun to listen to this happen.
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@boneman73,
Welcome!
When my Us cleaner is finished it’s cycle, I raise the lps out of the bath, let them spin a while, then take them off, pat them dry with a clean micro-fiber cloth, then to the VPI 16.5/distilled water. I have had no issue with spots.
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I'm another 'air-dryer'. Because I don't have a vacuum. So my process is to Spin Clean w/ their solution first, put them on the VinylStack, drop into the bath for 10 minutes and then take it over to the kitchen sink and run warm water over them while the labels are protected. Then I use a spin clean with distilled water and then put them in a file rack with a fan running. Occasionally I'll see a drop but it's pretty rare. They normally come out spotless. But I know a vacuum would be much better. I might head down that path at some point. |
@terry9,
Your mention of a "high speed vinyl stack spinner" ..could you elaborate? Is this something you put together yourself?
This IS fun isn't it.
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@slaw
As you say, this is fun. But no, I didn't put it together - got too much on my plate with my air bearing turntable (working close to the limit, but a quadrature power supply should improve it further) and pre/phono (Version 2.0 with air-gap and vacuum caps ONLY in the signal path).
I asked the good folks at Vinyl Stack to put a special motor on their spinner, and they found something that works brilliantly. I run the unit at about 60 RPM to do a fast rinse and uniform cool-down under running water (about 10C). If you have pure tap water, it's fast and convenient. Recommended. |
@terry9,
Does "pure tap water" = ROM system?
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No - municipal tap water comes from a river only 20 (yup, 20) miles long. So it's close to distilled specification. Absent that, I would use RO. |
Yes... It IS fun. Really fun. And provides lots of incentive to go back through the collection to rediscover some old favorites and hear them better than ever.
I’m currently listening to a freshly cleaned copy of The Stones - Get Your Ya Ya’s Out. I’ve owned this record since at least college (think late 70’s) and it was played frequently back in the day. It sounds great. Far better than I remember. Mick Taylor’s guitar sounds glorious. There are still some tics and pops, probably due to some damage, but all in all, pretty great.
I’m on a slightly different mission now. I want to get through my entire collection. I’ve cleaned about half of my records with my Cleaner Vinyl Pro using just a 15 minute wash step (initially using distilled water, soap, and alcohol, now using VersaClean, Photoflow and distilled water), and finished on the Record Doctor.
However, as more people have joined the thread, I’ve learned more (thanks in particular to @terry9, @slaw, @whart) and now I want to make sure I add a rinse step before vacuuming. This necessitates going back through the first half of the collection as well as handling the second half.
So, I went all in and bought a second US tank and another Cleaner Vinyl. This gives me twice the capacity to go through the rinse step for the previously cleaned part of the collection. Also, because of the way Cleaner Vinyl just hangs on the side of the tank, when I do the second half I will just pick up the unit with records from the clean tank and drop it in the rinse tank, the second Cleaner Vinyl will already be loaded with records so I will just drop that in the cleaning tank.
Using this approach I can have US cleaning and rinsing going on simultaneously and following each rinse step with a spin on the Record Doctor to dry it. I know some like to air dry, but I’m on a mission to get through my collection and vacuuming speeds the drying as well as sucking any remaining dirt from the album. Once I’m through my collection I will sell one of the Cleaner Vinyl’s and US tanks. No doubt suffering a loss, but the compensation is I will get through my collection at a much faster pace.
I also built a pump and filter assembly as described previously and use that on the cleaning tank. In my case I’m also sold on having an external thermometer - the thermometers on my US tanks are out of touch with reality. See previous post for a link to the thermometer on Amazon.
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@phil0618 ,
Wow! You’ve got the bug...bad dude
This is a good thing. Reminds me of me.
I hope everything (vinyl) works out well for you.
I just put on Mudcrutch "2"..
Happy Listening!
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Using Holy Water .... improved Headroom
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Headroom? Would have thought 'soul'. |
Phil0618 likes Terry9's post |
@terry9,
I was thinking about your multi-stage filtering system/rinsing efforts...
Did you gradually work up to this? If so, could you ascribe a % of improvement, say on something like I'm currently utilizing compared to a more comprehensive approach like you are using? I realize these things are somewhat subjective but I assume you have valid reasons for your way. Thanks.
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Heads up on temperature / thermometer readings.
As mentioned previously the temperature gauges on my USD units or incorrect - off by 5c - 10c - on the low side. So actual temp may be 45c but the temp gauge on the US unit will read 35c.
I previously recommended a digital thermometer from Risepro. $7 from Amazon and seems accurate. HOWEVER. When the US tank is running these thermometers (I’ve got 2) can read 5c - 10c higher than actual temp. It is dramatic. You turn on the tank and the indicated temp on the thermometer will jump up almost immediately. Turn off the tank and the indicated temp will fall back down to actual. Also note that the behavior is more muted when you have albums in the tank - the temp will jump up less dramatically - which seems to speak to the issue of the albums actually dampening the US action and why you should consider cleaning only a few records at a time. I'm actually cleaning only 3 records at a time, down from my original 6.
So...
If you use a digital thermometer be sure to test it with the tank on and off to observe any potential differences.
Consider a non-digital thermometer? I don’t have one to test, but guessing it may not be susceptible to the same interference. |
@slaw
I began with a two stage rinse, spinning the cleaned records in a bath of Brita-purified water, then a bath of distilled water. But I could see bubbles forming in the rinse after only a few records, so changed the rinses more often. Then I tried pouring purified water over the records first, and things improved. Including the sound. I tried pouring purified water over the records both before and after the first bath. More improvement.
At the same time, I was increasing temperature from 35C to 45C (80KHz commercial machine). Cumulative of all of the above refinements was a further improvement of at least as much as US over VPI. I re-cleaned everything already done, 2000 records.
As you can see, labour intensive. But I dislike the noise of the VPI 16.5, so I sold mine as soon as I confirmed the superiority of US, and have never used the two methods in combination. My current method of filtered running water is just so much more convenient, that convenience alone makes it worthwhile. But I also note that after 50 records cleaned, the distilled water bath is still bubble-free at all times, so there is probably a further improvement in cleanliness, stylus friction, and sound.
That said, I've now got about 2500 records cleaned to 4-rinse standards, and don't think I'll start again. There are limits to madness, even mine.
I am giving you all of this information so that you can judge for yourself how reliable my impressions are (or are not!).
My impression, which is very crude, is that you would hear a clear difference between my method and yours, perhaps as much as half the difference between VPI and US. Bear in mind that this is more of a guess than an estimate.
If you try it, please let us know if I'm right. Or not. I hate persisting in error. |
@phil0618
Thanks for the warning. That would never have occurred to me. |
