@slaw,
The activated carbon filter 'may' remove the surfactant that is in the Versa Clean, and that 'could' be the reason for the water clarity. As far as the cloudy water, that could be the build-up/accumulation of very small (invisible) particles that are smaller than the carbon filter rating. Note that filters are rated either nominal which can pass particles as much as 5X the nominal micron rating, or absolute which will pass no particle larger than the absolute micron rating. The 80 kHz frequency is very good for removing very small invisible particulate, but not as good at removing visible crud which is better accomplished with a 40 kHz machine or a vacuum record cleaning machine or manual cleaning with a record label protector such as the VinylStack.
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@slaw
Some other thoughts,
If you have been using the same tank of water for 5 months without refreshing the chemistry, the 'chemistry' of the Versa-Clean is likely long since exhausted and the tank water may be acidic. Water at room temp and just warm will absorb air and CO2 which will then lead to formation of a weak acid - carbonic acid. You may be able to check the chemistry with a simple shake test - take a sample of tank water in a clean clear container, cap, and vigorous shake for about 15-sec - how much if any foam is produced, and how much is still present after 3-5 minutes. Compare with a fresh diluted Versa-Clean. That may give you an indication of remaining chemistry. Also, the carbon filter only has so much soil/particulate holding capacity before break-through after which the influent (goes-in) is the same as the effluent (goes-out). Depending on the number of records you are cleaning, using the same bath for more than 60-90 days is a stretch at best. At worst, the cloudy condition could be the formation of bacteria.
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@antinn ,
Thanks brother.
I'm in the first try with the carbon filter.I don't ever go longer than 5 weeks before replacing the water.
I thank you for posting! |
@slaw Woops, misread your post, 5 weeks is not bad. You may want to check the chemistry with the shake test I discussed. Also, Versa-Clean specifies that the cleaner is mildly alkaline pH 9.75. You can easily monitor the tank pH with an inexpensive pH meter such as https://www.amazon.com/Accuracy-Quality-Measurement-Brewing-Laboratory/dp/B07Y32MXHY/ref=sr_1_3?dchi...You will need to see what is the pH of a fresh tank and measure weekly to see how it drops. Some cleaners will be 'buffered' so that the pH will decrease very slowly and then drop quickly which indicates the chemistry is depleted. |
first a word of thanks for this civil thread full of knowledge and real experience.
@antinn can you link to that “ tech manual “ on manual cleaning you refer to writing?
best to all and enjoy the music !!!!
Jim |
@tomic601, As far as my tech manual, it took a bit of turn, and it now stands at 54 pages. The manual cleaning procedure is not very long, but I am adding a lot of details of the rationale behind various steps, cleaning agents and rinsing and I expanded it to address vacuum RCM and some discussion for ultrasonic cleaning (but not a detailed procedure), and maintenance of cleanliness with a discussion of triboelectric effect and record brushes which was a bit eye opening especially after I found a NASA study - long story short I no longer use a brush to dust, I use a piece of Kinetronics Tiger Anti-static cloth to remove (light swipe) surface dust https://www.kinetronics.com/product/anti-static-tiger-cloth/ , and use the Audioquest carbon brush only as a conductive brush - just barely touches the surface. The carbon fibers are very narrow and can penetrate deeply into the groove, but the carbon fibers while stronger than steel along the shaft, are brittle cross-wise and subject to breaking at the tips contaminating the groove. At the moment I am researching chemical material compatibility since there is a lot discussion but not a lot of real data, and there is some confusion. This is because there is so much difference between rigid-PVC such a PVC pipe, plasticized-PVC such a flexible hoses and some toys/art-works and then there is the vinyl-record which a copolymer of PVC&PVA of which there is very little evidence of containing plasticizer. So, while alcohol and detergents can extract plasticizer from plasticized PVC depending on the exposure time (I found two real test reports), the vinyl record does not appear to have any. But, I did find that isopropyl alcohol even diluted down to 5% - the vapors are flammable with a flashpoint - that was a surprise. The good thing about manual cleaning is that the record exposure time to the cleaning agents is very brief and there are no ignition hazards. But ultrasonic cleaning can leave the record exposed to cleaning solutions for extended durations and can present an ignition hazard to flammable vapors. FYI - distilled water is safe for extended durations. At this point I expect to complete my tech manual in about 30-days, then I need to find a home for it - no interest in selling/making any money - just wish to give it away as a public service. |
@antinn thanks and thanks for your service!
i use the Audioquest brush dry between deep cleaning currently on a Nitty Gritty machine. What nylon brush are you using in manual wet cleaning ?
best
jim |
@tomic601,Jim, I use the Record Doctor Clean Sweep Brush https://www.amazon.com/Record-Doctor-Clean-Sweep-Brush/dp/B07M92LY78. The bristle diameters are not so narrow that they will deeply penetrate the groove - so there is very limited risk of record damage. And, nylon absorbs water and when it does, it softens - so again no risk to the record or bristle breakage - and nylon returns to its original properties after it dries. But, the bristle diameter is large enough to just cover the groove, so when brushing back & forth, a lot of fluid agitation/cavitation is formed in the groove and that deeply cleans the record groove and side wall ridges especially with a light foaming surfactant. And then when rinsing, the brush with just water is effective in removing all trace of cleaner for the same reason - but mostly just agitation. A similar brush is the Osage, http://www.osageaudio.com/select.htm. Neil |
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I replaced the carbon filter for my standard .5 micro /10" filter. It was just an experiment. I really felt it offered no improvements. Had to get it out of my system....the idea, I mean. |
Well I'm pretty damn happy now. I realized one thing I never did at all, especially between, fluid changes was to wash out my filters. Now, I unhook from the US cleaner, put that hose into a new gallon jug of distilled, and let that run through into an empty tank. Takes under a minute.
I've in my 4th week in the latest fluid change...no cloudy water, no discolored water. |
@antinn , Thanks for that Tiger-Cloth recommendation. I'll try some as soon as I can get it. Do you cut it into strips? Or patches?
Also, thanks for that note on cleaning with alcohols. I was preaching that 5 years ago, but got tired - anyway, you give it more weight. |
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@antinn
The Tiger-Cloth arrived last week. Wonderful! Soft, adsorbent, easy to use. Can't imagine doing without.
Thanks !
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@antinn ,
Can the Tiger-Cloth be washed without losing its anti-static properties? |
@slaw,
You should be able to wash it without losing the anti-static properties. The anti-static property is provided by copper-infused threads that are woven into the fabric. Anti-static clothing worn by clean-room workers will have carbon threads woven into the fabric and they are laundered routinely. However, the clean-room garment fabric (made by Burlington) is much lighter & stiffer than the Tiger-Cloth (I bought a piece of the fabric to experiment). Otherwise, I have not washed my Tiger Cloths in over 2-yrs. I only use them to remove dust prior to play, and for record cleaning final drying of DI water. I just shake them out to remove any accumulated dust. |
@antinn ,
Thanks. With their shipping cost, to me it makes more sense to buy a box than just one. |
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Yeah, $13.95 shipping for one or for a box of 10. |
@terry9, @slaw Something new to try with the Kinetronics Tiger Cloth if using to wipe down a record prior to play - ever so slightly dampen the cloth with an ultra-fine atomized mist of demineralized/distilled water. I am using Nasacort (one spray/day) https://www.nasacort.com/for-adult-allergies/?&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=NSC_Nasacort_BR%7CExact_PRD_EN%7CUS_PP_USA%7CALL_Base_AWN_12-06-2019%7C12-31-2020&utm_term=nasacort+nasal+spray&utm_content=Nasal%20Spray, this year to prevent any allergies (sneezing in public these days could putting it nicely cause other people concern). However, the bottle is reusable. Each spray release 0.14 ml of water, and that is equal to about 2-drops. I am now using an empty bottle refilled with distilled water (flushed 3-times to clean-out), and before I wipe down a record before play, I hold the cloth 8-12 inches above the bottle and hit it with one spray. About half gets on my hand (hand feels initially wet - but dries almost instantly, its actually evaporative cooling), and half (equal to about one drop) gets on the cloth. The spray is an ultra-fine mist so that the cloth does not get wet, but only ever so slightly damp - just enough to improve pick-up of dust and improve static discharge from the record because when the cloth becomes ever so slightly damp - it improves its electrostatic discharge (ESD) properties. In the application, the record never gets wet, and the amount of moisture applied to the cloth surface (folded piece about 6-9 sq inches) is minimal so that by the time you use it for the next record - its dry, and being only distilled water - there is no cleanliness concerns. There are perfume bottles for sale (search Amazon) that advertise having a ultra-fine mist - I have no idea if they will work the same. I worked with what I had - and it cost me nothing. The real test will be this winter when the ambient humidity is much lower, but for now its working and there is some science behind it. Good Luck & Stay Well, Neil |
@antinn ,
I've had nasal sprays before and understand what you're saying. Sounds like a good idea. Thanks!
When I first pull a new lp out of it's sleeve, if needed, I've always used a micro-fiber cloth slightly damp to remove any noticeable dust from the surface before I start my regimen. |
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