I had no idea this post would generate so much traffic, I was merely intending to endorse the notion of US cleaning (and btw I have no affiliation with Cleaner Vinyl or any other US or record cleaning company).
As there is more interest and lots of questions - many of whom have been answered by people far smarter than - I will simply tell you how I’m using it and some observations.
Before I get there, please note, I’m in the "good enough" / "incremental improvement" camp and not the seeker of total audio perfection. So I’m more interested in moving quickly through my record collection than cleaning one or two records at a time to perfection. So some of what you see here may be far from optimal, maybe even heretical to some of you.
Lastly, I know there are bonafide chemists who contribute to this subject and much has been written on the subject of which products and mixtures should be used, I just made my own home brew from info I read and haven’t looked back. If my vinyl dissolves into an unplayable oily heap I will regret my cavalier approach, but right now I’m a pretty happy camper.
I'm using the Cleaner Vinyl Pro - it's supposed to allow for 12 records at a time, but I only clean 6 at a time.
My US machine is a PS-30A 6 litre unit.
I brew the cleaning solution as follows
3 oz of 99% isopropyl alcohol
A couple drops of clear dish soap
1 Teaspoon of photo flow
150 ounces of distilled water (approximately)
So, I’ve got a solution of about 50 to 1 distilled water to alcohol
Turn on the tank for 15 minutes before doing anything else - I read that this agitation removes some oxygen/gases from the solution (degassing)
Turn the temperature to 35 centigrade. I haven’t experimented much with this, but it seems that I have a hard time getting the temp over 30c with the lid off of the unit. I leave the unit on till I see 30c. Based on some responses above I will experiment more with this.
I then load 6 records on to the spindle and place them in the tank for a period of 15 minutes.
When time is up I hold the spinning spindle above the tank for maybe 1 minute and let excess solution drain off.
Then I place the motor / spindle on a flat surface and take each record and put it on the Record Doctor. I give them a light scrub with the solution that is still on the records and then vacuum them dry.
Observations
1. I think 6 records at a time is too many for optimal cleaning. I think I only have about one half inch between records and it should be more. As pointed out above more space would likely improve cleaning. But again, I’m trying to move smartly through a collection of records that are generally in good to very good shape. If I start buying more used records I will likely have to give them more individual attention. Likewise if I play a record and it doesn’t sound right I can give another cleaning.
2. Pay attention to fluid levels. The fluid evaporates pretty quickly. You’ve got 1-n rotating disks drawing warm water up from the tank and pretty good surface area on each record and fluid evaoporates quickly. When you fill the tank use the label as your guide and not the run out grooves. Obviously the run out grooves vary greatly from record to record.
3. I skip the rinse step in favor of vacuuming with record doctor. I’m hoping this is a reasonable compromise.
4. I will clean up to 30 records in a single batch of fluid. I have no filter (although I think one would be cool / useful). After thirty or so records I drain the fluid and mix up a new batch. However... I keep looking in the tank and assessing. In one instance, after one batch of records the solution went from clear to almost milky so that necessitated changing the solution immediately. Based on what I’m seeing in the tank much of what is removed (at least what you can see with the naked eye) is particulate which seems to fall to the bottom of the tank and stay there. Also, while I know the solution is getting dirty with each use I’m guessing / hoping that whatever is left in the grooves will at least have been loosened by the US treatment and then the Record Doctor will suction off these loosened particles.
5. I would use a vacuum device as a last step. For one thing it saves a great deal of time over letting records air dry, and for another I think it’s just prudent to suck all of the remaining solution off the surface of the record. The Record Doctor is $200 and while probably not as good as some other products I think it’s great for this application.
6. Using the above I’ve cleaned roughly 120 records over the last 4 days. I work from home and so I can set some up to clean and when I find a few minutes I can vacuum them clean and start a new batch.
All in all, a very worthwhile endeavor and most importantly it’s getting me to play and enjoy all kinds of music.
Yours in cleaner vinyl.
|
Good stuff. I appreciate all the feedback / guidance. And hopefully others will too.
I agree that my methods are compromised in an effort to move more quickly through my collection.
The alcohol to distilled water should be about 50 to 1. Roughly 150 ounces of water (a gallon and then some) vs 3 ounces of alcohol.
Based on the above I will tone down my use of alcohol and I will likely look into Versaclean as an alternative to soap products. I may also look into getting a pump/filter - it can only help.
About how much Versaclean should I add to my 150 oz mixture?
Also, I think I need to buy a thermometer to get an alternate reading on fluid temperature.
With respect to filling the tank only two thirds full to optimize performance I don't think I have a solution to that as I need the water level to cover the entire surface of the record.
I did go back and clean a couple of previously cleaned records putting just two on a spindle to see if I'd notice a difference. Did this a couple of times and I couldn't see any noticeable particulate in the tank, but I think this is a suspect test as I imagine much of what gets removed is hard to see with the naked eye.
In any event, it's clear that my solution and approach is less than optimal, but it does seem to be a big step forward so I think I will make the changes to alcohol and look into Versaclean and a pump/filter and continue to forge ahead.
Thanks again for all the input.
|
Thanks Terry.
@terry9
I've already started to make slight mods...
Backed off the chemicals - basically cut everything in half.
Ordered Versaclean
Only cleaning 4 records at a time instead of 6
Not sure if my machine will be able to get temp up to 45C with the lid off, but I will give it a go.
I also took a closer look at the water / solution and I can see from certain angles that there is more going on than I imagine. There are things suspended in the water - not just the particulate that I see at the bottom of the tank. I think this means either more frequent cleanings of the water or that I should get a pump.
Not sure that I want to take on the heroic rinsing right now, but perhaps going forward I will spot clean/rinse some of my favorites as an experiment.
And thanks for the tip regarding VersaClean on my stemware.
Cheers,
Phil |
@terry9
Thanks Terry, that's not something I would have thought about. As I said, I'm having a hard time getting my tank above 35c so I don't think it's much of an issue now, but if I get a different tank at some point in the future it could be. |
I agree with Terry, Whart and Slaw
I’ve been pretty amazed at the difference in cleaning using the US approach. All of my records would have been cleaned at one time or another with a Nitty Gritty vacuum record cleaner and until the popularity of US cleaning vacuum cleaning was probably regarded as state of the art.
But there is no question that using a US method I’m getting my records cleaner and they sound better. If you do a broad web search on ultrasonic record cleaning you’ll get a lot of hits from people who feel the same.
As stated previously, my system is good, but not SOTA and there is no doubt that I’m hearing improvements. And as also stated, US can’t fix a record, but it can certainly get it clean and improve the sound quality.
I’m evolving my cleaning efforts based on feedback in this thread and I think the results continue to improve.
I’m a big fan of US cleaning and it also makes sense to me that the combination of US cleaning along with vacuum cleaning is also a winner, and so I vacuum after I clean, but I have no empirical data to back the claim that it is an improvement. But minimally the vacuuming also dries the records much quicker which I like quite a bit.
I'll be making some additional mods to my cleaning efforts over the next week or two and will add more info then.
Good luck |
@slaw @terry9
I also just put a pump together. Very similar to Slaw.
I used a slightly stronger motor from the same company - A108, 5 Amp, 1.2 gpm. But honestly, I think it's overkill. That pump moves a lot of water, so I wouldn't obsess about the power of the pump motor. A motor moving half the fluid seems like it would be plenty.
Nothing elegant about my solution, just a 1 micron filter, pump, and power supply. No housing.
I think Slaw's idea of using a plug to be able to connect and disconnect the power supply from the pump does seem convenient. Having a quick connect from the tank to the pump might also be convenient.
More to tinker with, but the net is this setup seems to clean the fluid very quickly.
|
@terry9 @slaw A bit more tinkering. My US tank seemed suspect / deficient in a couple of ways so I tried a couple of things to address the problems. The issues with the tank were; It took forever to warm up and and the temp gauge never read above 38c. Based on commentary from Terry9 and others it seemed the target could/should be around 40c. So, I did two things. First, I bought a cute little thermometer from Risepro with a probe that goes in the tank while the gauge sticks to the outside of the tank via suction cup. All of $7 including shipping and it validated that the temp gauge on the US tank was wrong. The temp gauge on the tank was reading low by as much as 5c. So, while I might have seen a reading on the tank of 30c I was probably closer to 25-27c. The net is I think a thermometer is a worthwhile investment. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EYSGV9M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1Second, I bought a submersible aquarium heater to augment the heater in the tank. This was an attempt to both heat the water faster and sustain a higher temperature. While I think having some auxiliary heat source is useful, I don’t think aquarium heaters are the answer. Most of these max out around 93F, so at best it would help sustain about 34c, which is where I seem to be getting to. It’s an interesting idea as many of these are narrow enough to fit in the tank with the albums and fully submersible, but since they all seem to top out around 93F it’s not a true solution. Also, while it provides some assistance in warming the tank quicker it is not a real solution. My unit is only 50 watts, so selecting a unit with higher wattage would help, but there is only so much room in the tank so getting a unit that is physically larger poses challenges. The net, still searching for a solution to my heating issue. BTW, this is the tank I'm using https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M0328QT/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 The pump is useful and I’m using it between cleanings and it is definitely able to filter out the particulate, but the water still seems to get a bit murky over time so still learning about this. Lastly, I’ve simplified my solution. I’m just using 3 ounces of Versaclean - see @terry9 discussion earlier in the thread - and an ounce of photoflow with the remainder of the solution being distilled water. And then I finish off the effort on the Record Doctor. |
Yes... It IS fun. Really fun. And provides lots of incentive to go back through the collection to rediscover some old favorites and hear them better than ever.
I’m currently listening to a freshly cleaned copy of The Stones - Get Your Ya Ya’s Out. I’ve owned this record since at least college (think late 70’s) and it was played frequently back in the day. It sounds great. Far better than I remember. Mick Taylor’s guitar sounds glorious. There are still some tics and pops, probably due to some damage, but all in all, pretty great.
I’m on a slightly different mission now. I want to get through my entire collection. I’ve cleaned about half of my records with my Cleaner Vinyl Pro using just a 15 minute wash step (initially using distilled water, soap, and alcohol, now using VersaClean, Photoflow and distilled water), and finished on the Record Doctor.
However, as more people have joined the thread, I’ve learned more (thanks in particular to @terry9, @slaw, @whart) and now I want to make sure I add a rinse step before vacuuming. This necessitates going back through the first half of the collection as well as handling the second half.
So, I went all in and bought a second US tank and another Cleaner Vinyl. This gives me twice the capacity to go through the rinse step for the previously cleaned part of the collection. Also, because of the way Cleaner Vinyl just hangs on the side of the tank, when I do the second half I will just pick up the unit with records from the clean tank and drop it in the rinse tank, the second Cleaner Vinyl will already be loaded with records so I will just drop that in the cleaning tank.
Using this approach I can have US cleaning and rinsing going on simultaneously and following each rinse step with a spin on the Record Doctor to dry it. I know some like to air dry, but I’m on a mission to get through my collection and vacuuming speeds the drying as well as sucking any remaining dirt from the album. Once I’m through my collection I will sell one of the Cleaner Vinyl’s and US tanks. No doubt suffering a loss, but the compensation is I will get through my collection at a much faster pace.
I also built a pump and filter assembly as described previously and use that on the cleaning tank. In my case I’m also sold on having an external thermometer - the thermometers on my US tanks are out of touch with reality. See previous post for a link to the thermometer on Amazon.
|
Phil0618 likes Terry9's post |
Heads up on temperature / thermometer readings.
As mentioned previously the temperature gauges on my USD units or incorrect - off by 5c - 10c - on the low side. So actual temp may be 45c but the temp gauge on the US unit will read 35c.
I previously recommended a digital thermometer from Risepro. $7 from Amazon and seems accurate. HOWEVER. When the US tank is running these thermometers (I’ve got 2) can read 5c - 10c higher than actual temp. It is dramatic. You turn on the tank and the indicated temp on the thermometer will jump up almost immediately. Turn off the tank and the indicated temp will fall back down to actual. Also note that the behavior is more muted when you have albums in the tank - the temp will jump up less dramatically - which seems to speak to the issue of the albums actually dampening the US action and why you should consider cleaning only a few records at a time. I'm actually cleaning only 3 records at a time, down from my original 6.
So...
If you use a digital thermometer be sure to test it with the tank on and off to observe any potential differences.
Consider a non-digital thermometer? I don’t have one to test, but guessing it may not be susceptible to the same interference. |
@stringreen
I agree that in general the vacuum method is better than nothing, but the US method seems far superior. It may or may not be "worth it" to you, but there is a difference. But you are focused on the right things...
Enjoying the music and embracing passions.
@terry thank you for defining what you meant by "heroic rinsing". That's amazing. |
@folkfreak That deserves it's own thumbs up. |
Wow, I had no idea when I gave a general thumbs up to US cleaning that this would turn into such a long and educational thread.
First, my thanks to those who contributed to my efforts and in particular
@terry9 @slaw @whart
FWIW I took a slightly different slant with my efforts which I’ll mention here.
Our hobby tends to be an obsessive, but in this case my obsession took a slightly different tack. While most of you/us are concerned (quite rightly) with the science and the SQ, I became obsessed with how I was going to get through my entire collection in some reasonable period of time and how my early, sloppy US cleaning might differ from the more refined efforts that came after input from this thread.
My early efforts WERE sloppy, I was putting 6 records on my Cleaner Vinyl machine and used a mix of alcohol, dish soap, photo flo and distilled water. Then I vacuumed the records dry with a Record Doctor and figured that was all I needed.
Then the coaching started on this thread and over time I switched to Versaclean, less overall chemicals, higher temps, 3 records at a time (arguably still less than optimal based on what I’ve read). And thought I was good.
Then the subject of "Heroic Rinsing" (love that) and steam cleaning came up and I got curious about that.
But introducing a rinse step was going to slow down the overall effort and that thought was killing me...
So, I bought a second tank (cheap one) and a second Cleaner Vinyl. To speed things up.
The new method is 15 min cleaning in a 6L tank at standard speed, using a solution of 1 ounce of Versaclean and an ounce of Photoflow followed by 5 min in a rinse tank with distilled water and an ounce of Photoflo.
Compared to my earlier crude efforts, I now used more refined chemicals but less of them. And I incorporated a rinse step which most agreed was a good/required step. I included Photoflo in the rinse step after trying to rinse a few with no additive and noticing that the water seemed to be pooling on the surface of the record and not penetrating the grooves.
Using two Cleaner Vinyl’s and vacuuming them dry allowed me set up a little assembly line where I was able to constantly clean, rinse and vac dry and move swiftly through my collection (it’s modest only about 1000 records). At the right pace I had two tanks going and some vacuuming all going on near simultaneously.
After I got through the rest of my collection using this new approach I then went back to the first group of albums I had cleaned sloppily and with no rinsing and did the following.
1. Set up two rinse tanks - both distilled water and 1 ounce of photo flow
2. Proceeded to rinse about 50 records 5 min at a time in each tank
(this group of records had been cleaned w alcohol and dish soap and had been vacuumed, by not rinsed)
3. Looked at the contents of the tanks
The first rinse tank was pretty "murky" and had noticeable particulate in it, while the contents of the second was reasonably clear.
4. Changed the solution
5. Rinsed 50 of recently cleaned and rinsed records in each tank
(recall that this group had been run through both a US cleaning step and a rinse step and also vacuumed)
6. Looked at the contents of the tanks
The first tank was reasonably clear, the second really clear.
You can draw your own conclusions, but mine were two.
1. Take it easy on the chemicals and be far more careful with cleaning solution than I was in the beginning.
2. Rinsing (or maybe some type of pre cleaning) seems essential.
So, if you are concerned like I was about the time and labor required to move swiftly through your collection I can recommend the two machine, vac dry / assembly line approach to speed things up.
But based on observations, (not listening) I highly recommend taking it easy on the chemicals and rinsing. If you want to go fast, but get even better results then it seems like better tanks with slower rotation speed might be a couple of valid steps up from what I did.
One last thing. I did incorporate a 1 micron filter into the cleaning tank. My observation is that it does a good job with the particulate, but the solution still looked murky to me even after letting the filter run for a while.
Thanks again to everyone contributing to my education on this and particularly those mentioned above.
|
