thoughts on adding phonostage

The phono pre is critical and well worthy of an upgrade, and you can use any brand that you think aligns best with your tastes/goals/system.  If you share what specific improvements you’re looking for and what sound characteristics are most important to you along with budget and if you’re looking for new or used you’ll get good recommendations here.  You might also post this in the Analog section to maybe get some more focused responses.  Hope this helps, and best of luck. 

While I don't know the rogue, in general, a phono stage can make a significant difference. Re pairing, you can go with any brand you like. In my limited experience, stepping up in price has lead to step up in performance. I would think that PS investment = cartridge investment as a reasonable first approximation. With Rogue at around $3.5K, I would consider the built-in PS portion maybe at the $500-level. With MC you may also consider the step up transformer to MM stage approach. That is what I currently do (Rega Naia with Aphelion2 to Zesto SUT to EAT eglow petite). My PS is due for an upgrade for sure just don't know what to get. I plan to go to Vienna in June to get a broad sampling and ideas.

Thank you . System is just about broken in 50hours. I do really love the warmth of the tube amp. its strictly a vinyl set up, I'd like to add a little more clarity to hear the nuances of the vinyl and some dynamic drive/power. I've read that if I go with a tube phono I may sound too warm and soft.  I need to add the MC cart first since the rogue amp works for both MM/MC.  I actually would love to bargain hunt and buy something used i may not necessarily be able to purchase new.  

@soix

+1

I don't think there is such a thing as a phonostage that is over kill. Get the very best you can afford. I would consider a used Audio Research, Conrad Johnson or Zesto. 

Thank you lads

ANY cartridge you use will be limited with your internal phonostage.

This Is a good buy for future cartridges and when you're ready to do a complete  makeover(table/arm)

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650248370-loaded-rogue-ares-mm-amp-mc-phono-stage-shipping-include/

You'll hear what you've been missing.

No more upgrading until you have a significantly bigger  budget.

Hi , thanks for your post. As a Rogue owner in a similar position I’ll be following your post. I currently have a RP-1 and a modded Thorens TD-160 with a Grado Prestige cartridge. I felt early on that my TT is limited by the phono stage in the RP-1. FWIT the headphone stage isn’t any better. I’m setting up a new rig next month with a Rogue Hera and a fresh modded pair of M-180 Darks. After I get a chance to listen, I’ll evaluate for a phono stage. FWIT my experience with Rogue tube gear is that upgrading the small tubes has made a noticeable difference in sound quality. I’m guessing that your new amp shipped with Psvane KT-88’s and I have some in my 180’s. What I discussed with Bill at Rogue was that the Dark upgrades now use higher quality new production tubes over NOS to replace the stock JJ’s. In playing with those and the usual NOS stuff I had a noticeable SQ improvement at a reasonable cost. I would suggest you call Rogue and talk with Bill about a signal tube change and the phono stage limits of what you have and the Rogue ( if you go that way ) phono stages. Bill is very knowledgeable and will never push an upsell . Happy Hunting , Mike B. 

Many years ago I was sold on my equipment being "separates", and that path bgan with having a separate phonostage. No sharing of powersupply with the rest of the preamp or integrated amp. I've had several really good phonostages and currently have a Conrad Johnson TEA1 S3. You can find many very good units from those ghdprentice lists above, and I will add Aesthetix, Lamm, and Modwright to that list.

Thanks for post I will be calling Bill at rogue. I did not splurge on the dark version and have the stock kt-88s.  i have been reading alot about low output and high output MC, i think i'm upgrading to Hana MH.  I feel like pairing amp with a tube phono may make the over all system too warm, if thats a thing...but isnt that what drew me to a tube amp to begin with?  this audiophile business is such a slippery rabbit hole!  fun

Do what @buellrider97 suggested.  

I have an RP-1 with a Rega P6 and Ania Pro Cart.  I called up Rogue and got the dip settings they suggested to match the Ania (there was a chart but I wanted to make sure).  Upgraded the RP-1 tubes to Matched Mullards from Andy's tube services.   Later a tried a MOON 110LP from my LD.  After as critical a listening session as my old ass ears could pull off , The MOON sounded no better than the RP-1.  So back to the LD it went. 

Given what you’re looking for my mind immediately went to the Liberty Audio B2B-1 phono pre.  I reviewed their B2B-100 amp that was outstanding and also had the qualities you’re looking for, and I think this review captures their sonic house sound and the phono pre’s character well (there are also a couple Stereophile reviews).

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue52/liberty.htm

They sell direct so you’re getting a lot of quality for the $ from one of the top minds in audio (Peter Noerbaek of PBN Audio), and I believe they offer a 14-day trial period.  Just one idea FWIW, and best of luck. 

I’ve compared side by side with Rogue, Stock phono in a receiver, and Rega all with using a ss amp and the ortofon bronze cart. To my ears, the rogue with the tubes and separate power supply was the best sound. Smooth, clear, not bright

I am confronted with the same question.  My initial thought is to live with my current MC preamp in my Aragon 24k.  Adding 2 sets of cable and another audio device and then into an aux/cd/or tape input on my current system and out again seems like a lot of added stuff in my signal path.  and it is starting at a few microvolts.

+1 for @soix comments. And if you are going to jump into LOMC land then consider a good step up with either tube or SS phono stages. With SUTs, you will want the widest bandwidth you can afford. 

My advice is try matching the phono cartridge with your loudspeakers. As you might know phono cartridges and speakers are the most flawed components in the audio chain. Explains why there is such a wide variation in sound characteristics.

A phono pre that might be flying under your radar is the Herron Audio VTPH-2A. If you check the Audiogon discussion forums, you'll find numerous glowing recommendations for it.

Problem is, they rarely hit the used market; so, being patient might be a big issue. 

thank you guys. i also love the fact that you can play around with the tubes try diffent tubes to create different sounds...ive basically figured out if i leave my amp on since we play music everyday the sound is incredible...i do know that i am going to up grade to a HO cart next. and i am eyeballing a luxman e-250 used. i like adding a solid state to my chain. but i'll end up changing my mind at least another 50 times

It looks like you’re getting a lot of solid advice. If you follow

@mulveling he is VERY knowledgeable of Rogue and is extremely experienced with everything you seek. If I remember correctly he has involvement with the Rogue owners page on Facebook. I apologize for throwing him into the mix but I have a huge respect for his knowledge and politeness. If I may toss in a couple random things. I personally don’t leave my tube gear on for extended periods of time. If I’m coming back later in the day or occasionally overnight. If I’m not mistaken your amp has power tube sockets to printed circuit boards and not a full pin to pin wiring. So there is a fair amount of heat transfer, maybe put a small fan on it. Another random thought is your input tubes. I’m assuming that it came with the regular JJ’s which most people change for a noticeable improvement. Then there is the Mullard Vs Tekefunken sound difference. Most people prefer one drastically Vs the other. Rogue recommends nos Mullard to people to smooth out the sound , but for me as I have some , they are like throwing a blanket over my system. But my suggestion is to first look at your 12AX7’s , as they will have the greatest impact on your sound. In the current Rogue Dark upgrade they no longer provide nos tubes. For the 12AX7’s they use new production Tung Sol 5751 Gold pin’s at about $50 Ea. My M-180’s came with them and after breaking them in I rolled in a $318 pair of nos curve tracer matched Tekefunken 12AX7’s from Brent Jesse. To my surprise I preferred the new production Tung Sols. FWIT the 12AX7 family includes the 12AY7’s , 12AT7’s and the 5751’s. They each have a different Mu ( gain ) factor. I suggest that you try them and see if you like the sound. Later try changing the 12AU7’s to anything. Rogue used to provide RCA nos in that slot. As far as your power tubes I have the Psvane KT-88’s and they are not bad. Bill stated it’s the most reliable tube so they use it. However your amp will sound different with Tung Sol KT-120’s and probably make slightly more wattage. Also the KT-120’s tend to make more bass. In having a tube conversation with Bill , he stated that in my M-180’s going from the KT-120 to the KT-150 would slightly change the tone but not generate more wattage as the Rogue SS power supply limited that due to its fixed operating voltage. I know most of this is irrelevant to your thread question but I’m hoping to be informative and not bossy. And my apologies to mulveling for throwing you in the mix without prior permission. Cheers , Mike B. 

all vinyl, just broken in, making changes already?

I encourage you to wait 6 months, find out how hooked on vinyl you get before seeking change/improvements.

2m bronze, factory aligned, is a darn good start, stop reading, stop imagining something else, keep listening to what you have.

I imagine your Rogue phono sounds darn good, and is revealing enough that you would hear differences among cartridges, if you were able to easily compare.

then, you need to think long, because you have a TT with a single straight arm fixed cartridge which does not allow the use of alternate cartridges, so you, like others with fixed cartridges, think about a 'better' phono stage. I'd rather you build a stable of cartridges, Stereo; Mono; MM; MC; MI, and consider light tracking.

I found out yesterday, I got lucky again, Steve at VAS confirmed the used AT160ml I bought has no wear. It's a MM, with a MicroLine Stylus on a beryllium cantilever (the lightest/stiffest ever made) that sounds great, has amazing imaging, and tracks at 1.25g (some use it's lightest 1.0g setting).

I advise 'return' privilege's on any phono stage, because I sent 3 highly recommended phono stages back, and think it is a matter of finding 'preferred', not 'better' if that makes any sense to you.

@mitchagain + 1 - I've had a Herron tube phono preamp for about 4 years now, and it's great, it certainly is. And the used market is the only place you'll find them now as Keith has retired his business, but I do see them at USAM, Agon, or The Music Room now and again... 

i do appreciate the wait 6mo post. its def prudent and again, im in no rush to make any of these changes except for maybe the MC cart.  i am excited to explore experimenting with different tubes but will def wait on that. 

@larsman +1 - Thanks to prior comments by you and many others about the Herron Audio phono pre, that ended up putting me on the trail of the Herron VTSP - 3A preamp, which I am thrilled with! 

I used to have a Rogue RP1 preamp and my experience was that while the headphone amp wasn't very good, the phono preamp was pretty good. I wanted to try a SUT and since then I'm using a different preamp that doesn't have a built in phono input. I got the basic MM only version of the EAR Phonobox tube phono preamp with the EAR MC4 SUT. The price isn't unreasonable compared to some options. The MC4 SUT has different inputs that allow you to use it with different cartridges, or try different settings for different sound, and I've been very happy with the sound and improvement after adding a SUT.

@pmzn if you dont want the sound to be too "warm and soft," dont get a warm and soft phono stage. that doesnt mean dont get a tube phono stage. 

check out the tavish adagio. its got adjustible loading on the fly and built in step up transformer. no jfets or opamps, all tube. 

Anyone have experience with luxman e-250? I have the opportunity to explore that route.  

@pmzn 

Congrats on a fine system !  I had a Cronus Magnum II and it is an awesome sounding amp that creates a large 3D soundstage.  Also heard the T66 many times and can imagine a great match with the CM III.

Ordinarily the first thing I would recommend are to seek some KT120 tubes- but in your case the T66 speakers have a powered bass module and the KT120s will offer minimum value.  

I do recommend an upgrade to the center preamp tube- try to find a NOS amperex 12AU7 tube- it will upgrade the sound stage and clarity quite a bit- see audiotubes.com (Brent J).  

As for the cartridge- a nice low output MC cartridge is a great upgrade from an MM cartridge.  You'll hear a cleaner, smoother and more dynamic sound.  The Hana is a great value.  As for phono stage another great value is the Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II.  It has flexible gain and loading and a two chassis system with isolated large transformer power supply.  This makes the sound even cleaner and more dynamic that typical phono stages that use op amps.  Those two are no brainers in the audio world and will sound much better than the Ortofon MM.  I had an Ortofon 2M black and the upgrade to a low output moving coil was significant. Peace and good luck. 

https://www.lehmannaudio.com/phono-stages/black-cube-se-ii-sv-edition.html