Thoughts About Turntable Upgrades

I guess I was misunderstood. What I meant is that if you think that Red Book CDs or even most SACDs that are re-issues of conventional digital recordings can be equal to or superior to (high quality, low noise) vinyl copies of the same music, I don’t agree. (I think it’s because of the "brick wall" filtering, but that is another discussion entirely.) Yes, conventional measurements of "distortion" might support such a contention, but listening never does, in my opinion. On the other hand, I do agree that the best modern digital sources like hi-rez streaming or perhaps hard drive with high resolution can exceed or certainly equal vinyl in measurable or listenable distortion. It still doesn’t "float my boat", but fine for those who love it. And at least it doesn't offend me when I do hear such sources.

@mijostyn

About the streaming vs harddrive/CD quality.   From Paul McGowan of PS audio. He hears the same thing.    

https://youtu.be/zeHxHaqtKOg

@lewm 

I just opened a Qobuz account. I use it to check out new music, but I have compared high res (24/96) files to the same file stored on my hard drive and there is no question the hard drive sounds better. It shouldn't, it is just numbers, so there is something else going on here. Perhaps the Qobuz files are being intentionally corrupted? They do not sound bad, just not as good as they should. Both are going through the same DAC. 

As for vinyl, I record records to my hard drive all the time and they sound just like vinyl. Nobody can tell the difference. So, whatever is happening in the vinyl process can be captured digitally. You could even create algorithms to do it artificially. That said, a good high res file is superior to vinyl in every way. I do have some audiophile records that come close.  

@rblondeau 

The solution is easy. You electrocute the old turntable (break it) and go hat in hand to the wife and explain that the old girl is beyond repair and we will have to get a new one. 

the quality of my analog source is not on par with my digital source. 

@rblondeau - exactly.  As spending increases, the analog generally sounds noticeably better. After that, one must spend significantly more on the DAC to reach a sonically competitive level.

Some reviewed turntables here
 

But these days, the very limited quality of RBCD is hardly a criterion for judging the potential of digital when hi Res streaming is readily available to most audiophiles.

boostedis asked

"If the master was originally recorded digitally and later converted to analog, how could the analog version possibly sound better than the original recording?! "

Well I’ve wondered a lot about this also and have done some research. I think that it is at least partly due to this............

The master digital file used to cut the lacquer is at a higher bit rate/resolution than virtually any easily sourced digital. CD redbook bit depth and sample rate yields 65,536 possible values.

The digital masters for vinyl vary but mostly their bit depth and rates yield 16,777,216 possible values.

And at the lacquer cutting room they have a top end DAC op amps etc that inscribe all this information directly onto the disc. Now it’s analog, boom, done.

Yes db dynamic range is less than CD. Doesn’t matter much. And yes vinyl has noise, but it is additive to the information inscribed. Not subtractive.

Add in possible things like mechanical 2nd order harmonic feedbacks etc of vinyl and bingo.

And ...Paul of PS Audio has said that they have compared the sound of the digital masters they use to cut their vinyl to the vinyl, and as he put it....many people will prefer the sound of the vinyl.

I don't think a good vinyl set up has to be very expensive.   Mine cost about 2K and sounds amazing.  I listen to digital for convenience and discovery only.  

I found this thread looking for info about a VPI Scout that I am considering. This thread was (originally) created prior to the Mofi debacle related to their original claim that their Vinyl was created from Analog sources, and later we discover that they were using Digital masters! It had a ripple affect through the industry, not the least of which related to professional reviewers who stated that they could hear the difference between a Digital and Analog mastered recording while singing the praises (pre-disclosure) of the Mofi pressings. If the master was originally recorded digitally and later converted to analog, how could the analog version possibly sound better than the original recording?! Is the analog reproduction true to the source? Is what many like about Vinyl that it 'rounds off' the edges and 'smooths' the presentation? If so, then it's the reproduced version that is preferred and not representative of the original. 

I agree with some have pointed out; the quality of my analog source is not on par with my digital source. Thankfully, my spouse didn't lose it when I mentioned the idea of maybe, some time in the future, you know, getting a new turntable. 😉 

I also have Vladimer's Toubadour IV SE....great dac for the $......I also have 400 Vinyl albums....Never played them much then bought the Hana $1200 MC low output cart. The PS Audio STELLAR phono amp is much better than the more expensive Parasound so the Parasound went back.....Now it's 25% Vinyl and 75% CD.  Get that Vinyl back out and enjoy it. Get a good record cleaning machine for about $200 from Upscale. It's worth it !

I thought I had quelled my long held passion for Vinyl used as a Source in a audio system.

I feel almost hypocritical in relation to this thread, as I own a Bespoke Built Valve DAC produced by a Bulgarian Designer. I felt this allowed for the OP and myself to share a little common ground in relation to a Digital Source and especially the DAC's used.

A recent experience, which has been a very non-vinyl encounter, has had a profound effect, which has fired up / stoked my passion to extend the experiences available to me, for how I experience Vinyl Replays being produced through my system.

I do state, all said previously from myself stands and is relevant for the OP, but this dog has got a itch that seemingly won't quieten until it has had a 'good ole' Scratch. 

In my experience vinyl is amazing, but very expensive to tap into the magic.

I currently have a VPI Prime Signature-Pass XP-17(Phono)-Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge-Audience SX phono cable.  This is around 15K to spin records and its sounds great, but in my journey it took the above system to really bring out the magic.

Also records are very expensive, I only usually buy first pressings in excellent shape. You will also need a record vacuum/washer...this is mandatory.

I'm also not a huge fan of having to manually lift the needle off the record when its done playing.

Also as your record collection grows....they take up a lot of space. Also there very heavy in bulk piles when trying to move or reorganize. There also not so easy to sell if needed.

I am blessed with a great system digitally also. This gets the majority of my playing music. Its easy and convenient.

I've spent a lot of time and money over the past 9 months getting into vinyl and comparing it to streaming.  Some quick takeaways from my experience. 

1) A good vinyl system is expensive.  Your DAC is better than your turntable/cartridge/phono stage.  It isn't surprising it sounds better to you.  You need to upgrade your cartridge and phono stage before you will really know if vinyl sounds better.  Even though I own three turntables (Rega P6, VPI Scout, Technics SL 1200GR) I still have no way of evaluating the impact a table makes since I don't own two copies of the same preamp and cartridge to do A/B testing.  So I suggest focusing on the cartridge and phono stage first.

2) Once you have actually optimized your vinyl setup I think you will find that new records are rarely worse than streaming (excluding surface noise) and are mostly noticeably better.  But with well produced new music the differences are usually quite small.   Old records are almost always significantly better than streaming.

3) Whether the expense and hassle of vinyl is worth it is quite subjective.  If you primarily play new music I would suggest not bothering until you have run out of other ways to optimize your system.  

Sota tables are very well made, sound good, and are reasonably priced.  I don't think you will go wrong with your choice.  Basis makes terrific tables, but at a significantly incresed price (I own a Basis Debut vacuum clamp table myself).  Older VPI tables in good condition are also decent USA made choices, but I am a bit leery about current and recently made tables because of some reported reliability and poor construction issues.

If you are also looking for an American made tonearm, the Triplanar is one of the best, but current models are extremely expensive.  The Basis Vector is also good, but also somewhat pricey.  

Other recommendation made USA: Any Basis Audio table from 1400/2001/2000 and up. Used market steal/best value.....

I’m extremely happy with my VPI Prime 21+ & Soundsmith cart.

US made & excellent customer service.

Thanks for the input, y'all. It's given me some more to chew on and research. I'll definitely check out MoFi and start reading up on phono pre-amps. 

Source quality is important for sure. I absolutely can hear the difference. I do still enjoy used record shopping though! 

Thanks again, y'all. Have a good week!

After spending untold amounts of time in the attempt to make judgments as to what order to place my three sources in terms of fidelity -- CD/SACD, Phono & Streaming, I've simply lost the jones to carve my order of preference in stone. I possess some truly excellent sounding CDs and SACDs. I've got plenty of lovely sounding vinyl. I can glean killer quality tone via Qobuz. The 21st Century is a good place to feed your HiFi yen.

MoFi Ultradeck, master tracker cart and Parasound JC 3 jr pre. I am over the moon with the sound. Solid low end, sweet, great pace, effortless… made in the US. 

I listen to both Vinyl and CD pressing from producers that specialise in the production of the better than the usual recordings.

I have also been able to hear these select recordings on some occasions as Same Album Samples on either of the mediums.

I have also been able to hear certain Albums that are select recordings compared to mainstream releases.

I will 'state categorically' that these pressing do make a difference, there is a price difference, and it is this that is seen to be a sticking point for some. There is even prejudices seen occasionally toward select recordings, as a result of the retail price.

@pindac +1 ^^

Quality of the source makes ALL the difference with revealing systems. I have been cashing in with some of my "collectable" vinyl, trading them for high quality pressings of the music I listen to these days. My vinyl collection has been morphing into a smaller collection of mostly audiophile vinyl.

As @vonhelmholtz said, my vinyl listening is deliberate and focused. Everything else I stream.

Bruce

I can’t comment on Sota…

however, a phono-pre upgrade would go a long way. 
I have a Planar 3 with a decent Parasound pre. 
Try the pre first and see?

there are the two schools of thought on tables:

- as much mass as your structure can hold. 
- low mass (Rega is a good example). 
 They both have their selling points. 
 

There are very High Quality CD's as there is High Quality Vinyl Pressings

Each are produced with the end Sound Quality being Optimised, as a result of the recording > embedding and production process put in place.

When a CD Source is owned, especially of the Calibre owned by the OP, I strongly advise anybody with a Source purchased, that is of the qualities of the OP's Type, to experience these select Source Recordings on their own system.

I listen to both Vinyl and CD pressing from producers that specialise in the production of the better than the usual recordings.

I have also been able to hear these select recordings on some occasions as Same Album Samples on either of the mediums.

I have also been able to hear certain Albums that are select recordings compared to mainstream releases.

I will 'state categorically' that these pressing do make a difference, there is a price difference, and it is this that is seen to be a sticking point for some. There is even prejudices seen occasionally toward select recordings, as a result of the retail price.

I reiterate my advisory to the OP, before throwing monies at a rearranging the Vinyl Set Up, have a spend on purchasing a few select recordings to be used with your CD. Hopefully a favoured selection of Albums can be discovered from the producers.

I don't see there will be a need to pursue Vinyl with a intention after this experience, as the monies needed will most likely Triple to some of the previous outlays already hinted at.

The Cary, might just become the device that is under the spot light to see whare an alternative can surpass it, especially when replaying those select recordings.

Do Remember, I am a Vinyl through and through enthusiast, who has become aware of how good CD replays are able to be over the past not too many years.

If you want to experience some good quality CD Recordings on the Cheap, search out Albums recorded with Q Sound embedded in them, there are not too many, but they are able to be discovered for reasonable outlays.

check out Acoustic Solid out of Germany. I moved to them after a VPI prime 21 and am very happy with the build quality and sound quality. also $3k less money (for the model i got), better built if i was honest as well.

Acoustic Solid – Handmade in Germany (acoustic-solid.com) 

OP,

Congratulations on your digital end. It is still difficult to get digital to exceed vinyl in the price category you are in even today. Great work!

A Soto Saphire is a good choice. Also you can look at VIP. By getting a table in the $5K range you can be assured of a very large jump in performance. To get the full value you will probably need to upgrade you Phonostage. My rule of thumb is to spend as much on the Phonostage as the turntable. I have upgraded many times and a great (I like Audio Research) Phonostage is required.

If you do this, you are in for a real treat. But make sure this is what you want. If your vinyl stomps the sound quality of your digital end… well you could have invested that money in your digital / system and elevated it even more. It’s just a question of dilution. The digital end is the future… vinyl the past. If you love playing with vinyl… great, go for it.

@oldaudiophile

There are some long time members with high end systems that say that their digital is as pleasing as their analog. I don’t think that they claim that they are the same in every way and I’m pretty sure that all is source dependent. My system was not put together with the same level of expertise and my analog still bests my digital, but the digital was a better value and my digital sounds analog and quite musical to my ears.
I wish that more of the members would post their system in virtual system.

I spent some serious seat-time with a Rega P3 outfitted with an Ortofon Blue 2M. played, first, through the phono stage of a McIntosh MA5200 and then, through the phono stage of a Luxman L-550XII, using Focal Aria 536 speakers and clean, well recorded vinyl. That experience was about as far from fatiguing on the ears as possible!

Keep in mind that Rega's TT design and engineering philosophy is predicated upon producing very light weight, low mass TTs with very stiff bracing. As such, take heed of what pindac is saying here. All TTs should be placed on rock steady, isolated surfaces; Rega more than most.

I'm not familiar with the phono stage or the cart you are presently using. If I had to guess, which I'm loath to do because I much prefer speaking from personal empirical experience, I'd say one or the pairing of both of them is the likely the culprit for the ear fatigue. Speakers are part of the pairing equation, as well, as these are the business end of every system. Everybody has to play nice together.

After further research into my TT quest, I eventually whittled down my choices to a Rega P6 outfitted with an Ortofon Black 2M and MoFi Ultradeck with MastertTacker. I went with the Mofi Ultradeck+M and couldn't be more pleased. If you're interested, there's a full review of it in Stereophile (and other places, of course) that, as I recall, Herb Reichart wrote several years ago. Basically, he came to the conclusion, at that time, that the Mofi Ultradecks+M was the best he'd heard under 5K. I'm sure SOTA is an excellent TT. I've just never heard one.

I'm not familiar with the DAC you are using. All I can say in this realm is that I've never heard any digital set-up, even those approaching 6 figures, that my ears preferred over a good, comparable vinyl set-up. This debate over whether digital systems are better than comparable vinyl systems is fast becoming the replacement debate for whether multi-thousand-dollar cables & connectors "sound better" than those costing much less. Sure, digital is much easier, much more convenient and doesn't require the care and attention that vinyl does (i.e.  clean records). However, in those direct, structured and controlled A/B shoot-outs that I've done with digital vs. vinyl, even digital systems costing much more than vinyl, I know what my ears like. Maybe it's all neuroaudiological. In the end, your ears will know that they like, as well. Listen & demo as much stuff as you can and let YOU'RE EARS be the judge.

I used my sense of what sounded musical to upgrade my system. Your system is a great starter system, but if you start to expose yourself to really good systems, will you be interested in improving your system? If so, do you want to split your money between the digital and analog components? I used my analog to desire a better digital and the digital to want a better analog. The money went in increments, but my analog cost far more than the digital and in the end I could have purchased an exotic sports car, or sent one child to Stanford. I will say that I enjoy the vinyl more than the digital, but I listen to the digital more than the analog since it is just a matter of flipping on a switch and opening my iPad. The analog is always a planned listening time. Upgrade your system, but I suggest that you go out and listen to some great systems and make sure that you know what you want.  I don’t mean making sure that you know what equipment you want, but rather to make sure you know what musical presentation you want.  In order to get that sound, you will need to upgrade everything about your system and your room, but at least you can move one item at a time towards that sound.

What I'd say is that if you have a truly great sounding digital front end, that it will be expensive to get your analog side sounding as good. The other side of that though is that if you take the time and make the investment your analog front end will bring you hours of enjoyment that surpass the digital. Obviously, this is my opinion.

The work that's needed is figuring out the the right components. You've chosen a fine turntable. What arm will you put on in? This and the cartridge will have as much or more effect on the sound than the table itself. Additionally, you'll need to step up the phono stage. I have a Pro-ject tube box in my second system in my mountain cabin. It's solid for a mid grade analog front end but when I went all the way I ended up spending 5k on a used tubed phono stage from Rogers High Fidelity. If you take the time and get the right pieces. You'll be extremely happy. 

Mofi Ultradeck with the optional Master Tracker cartridge.  Great reviews.

Yeah, I snuck my wife's Linn Sondek/Basic into my system when she left town for a while to attend school, but in the main I've just had a Sota Sapphire since I left the Direct Drive World sometime in the previous century. Yeah, the Linn gave me more mid-bass punch and more "they're in my room" authority, but the Sota has always been better in taking me to "the room where the piece of music was recorded." The sound can be truly immersing!

My Sota has gone through its share of upgrades, and I had to send the thing back to the factory when its ability to maintain constant speed mysteriously went MIA. Sota dutifully repaired the thing with only a shipping charge despite the fact they suspected I'd somehow dropped the machine at one time or another.  All told, though, I really love the thing. It doesn't hurt that 45 rpm is only a push of a button away.  ...Ya outta' see my pile of old 45 singles..

Do be aware that the Digital Source you have is going to be very difficult to surpass with a Vinyl Source.

Also the DAC you are using will from my experiences, substantially benefit from being seated on a Support Structure that is very suitable for a TT support. Valves in a device, be it a Source Ancillary, Pre-Amp or Power Amp, benefit from a support structure that works for the improvements in management of transferred energies. 

The E88CC Tube in the DAC, will 'if exchanged' for a late 50' - early 60's Tube produce a quite unique DAC, that will also transform into a extremely impressive performer.

I myself have gone down this same route with a DAC and Phonostage.

I have also met a few who have gone down this same route, and when discovered their preferred Valve from this era are completely sold on the exchange.

I am yet to personally meet an individual who has changed to E88CC's from said vintage, who come out of the experience believing there is another option that can better them, or wishing their earlier used Valves were reinstated. 

The additional attraction of your DAC, is that the Valve options are not limited to E88CC only.

The SOTA is armless so what arm are you going to use with the SOTA?

The following is a Copy/Paste of a post I made to a recent Thread where similar info to what you have requested was inquired about.

"As a Pre-Planner for anything you may choose to bring into the system at a later date.

I suggest that you spend some time learning what might be a good structure to mount your TT on.

There are endless options at varied costs. My experience is that very attractive results are able to be created at not too much monies, using Items that can sell on quite easy, if investigations are showing that support devices that used are being superseded.

Getting the Support Structure to a place where it is undoubtedly perceived as being Optimised, can have a impact that will create the impression a New Turntable >Tonearm is in use, when recollected for the sonic produced on a previous method of support. 

Such an Optimised Structure should prove its value to any future endeavours."

I hope this as a response to your inquiry has a content that is off interest to you.