@solobone22 - I'd be glad to listen to your test tune; I have a pair of 3.6s in my studio as permanent references. Note that Rob has rebuild kits for that tweeter (CS2.2, 3.6, 5). If it is fried, I suggest sending the whole unit to Rob, because the ferro-fluid can get cooked and thick and need replacement. Extremely low likelihood of XO damage.
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@therealpupalei yes you needed to short out the XLR inputs when using the single ended inputs as that can cause issues
its unfortunate that you had such issues as the Krell TAS is an excellent piece of gear. I would have liked to hear your impression of it once it was working properly. I have called Krell on several occasions and have had no issues. With regards to the Krell TAS they said unless it was broken or having issues it did not need to be serviced.
@jon_5912 I would have shipped it back. Had that happen with a pair of 2.4's unfortunately. The cabinet arrived cracked and one of the drivers was blown. Honestly I think the owner knew they were damaged and wanted the insurance money. Fortunately it was through Ebay and I promptly got my money back.
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@solobone22 that speaker is still taken apart in the corner of the garage. Maybe I'll get to it and maybe I won't. I've already done 2 repairs and bought a replacement part. Knowing that I need at least two more parts to get them working has me considering just keeping the one that works and ditching the other. I bought a single PowerPlane 1.2 off ebay for $135. I'll probably just troll for bargains rather than sink more time and money into this mess. |
@solobone22 @tomthiel
It’s very hard to compare the PS Audio to the Krell for several reasons. I suspect the Krell has needed service for quite a while, so I’m sure I haven’t heard it at its best for a decade. Other changes I’ve made at the same time: I’m running two matching subs on the left and right corners and I’ve set the crossover at 60 hz instead of 80, which I always used before.
It still worked okay through 3 channels with balanced cables but when I replaced the Onkyo Pre/Pro with a new Denon receiver and had to try RCA inputs, the Krell hummed badly. I looked into getting it serviced, but I can hardly tell if the company still exists. I left a message at a number I found online (that sounded like some dude’s cell phone) and never heard back.
I didn’t have time to do a lot of research, but found the @whitecamaross thread and saw the positive blurb at the top about the BHK 300 and saw the TAS buyer’s guide positively comparing the 250 to the 300. When I saw that PS Audio was made here in Colorado and gave a generous discount for old broken trade-ins, it was a no-brainer for me.
The main thing I can say in comparison is that with the Krell I always felt the treble was too harsh. I may be over sensitive to treble anyway, but I was never 100% able to listen to violins or trumpets until I heard about Audyssey. It was less about room correction and more about rolling off highs, but Audyssey was a game changing technology for me.
With the PS Audio, the 2.3s are still forward if not bright, but although I keep thinking I’m going to get that ringing in my ears I never quite get it. I didn’t need to be in a hurry to run Audyssey at all. Now that I have run it, I’m running it "Flat".
I listen between 70-75 db on average. Louder than that is still a little too much "in my face". But at that level it really does sound better than ever. Like I said before I no longer need to mess with surround modes to get 3D sound. |
@jon_5912 Were you able to repair the crossover? |
@ctsooner That is what my hunt has been for. Any speaker can produce sound. A carefully matched system can reproduce music and that is what I’m after as well. Currently my most involving setup is this:
Intel NUC running wtfplay (Synergistic Active USB) or Cal Audio Labs CL-10 (Synergistic X coaxial) --> MSB Analog DAC --> AudioQuest G Snake --> Krell FBI Integrated --> AQ 4 (I think) speaker cables --> Thiel CD2.7
Big wide deep dynamic with what I hear as accurate timbre of instruments.
When I need bass that the 2.7 cannot reproduce I hookup a Definitive SuperCube II to the preamp outs on the Krell. |
Sounds like a fried tweeter to me. I think what causes it is when the leads break, the strands tend to be touching at low volume but at high excursions they lose contact and then regain it, causing a crackling sound. I recently had this problem with a Thiel Viewpoint I got off of ebay. It was damaged in shipping and I glued the woofer together and got it working. The tweeter was crackling though, I took it apart and saw that strands of the wire leading to the voice coil were broken. I ordered a new tweeter and it had the same problem almost immediately. I took it apart again and the leads were broken just like the other one. I measured the crossover output for the tweeter at 60hz and it was the same as the output for the woofer. The crossover was damaged in such a way that it was frying tweeters. |
Another thought - does anyone have 3.6's that could run a test for me? I can send you a song that produces the crackling. I'm thinking this may have always been there however you don't hear it unless you are really close and off to the side of the tweeter.
I've already tried this on the 2.7's and did not hear the crackling regardless of where I stood or how close I was to the tweeter. |
@therealpupalei - what do you think of the PS compared to your previous Krell?
I'm using a Krell TAS to power a pair of 3.6's. Love it! |
Does anyone have the specs on the tweeter for the 3.6(D26AG-36)? If you listen off to the side and rather close to the tweeter you can hear crackling on music with strong lower treble upper mid energy - like timpani for classical music. If you listen out front you can't hear it at all at any volume. I'm not sure how long this has been there either.
What are the chances that something has gone bad on the crossover?
Will be calling Rob about this on Monday. Want to see what else is out there should I need new tweeters. |
snbeall - Rob at Coherent Source Service might have some definitive answers for you. In general, a big voltage swing in audio is 10 volts.
Interesting thing about hearing is that our brain compensates somehow. My HF rolls off starting at 4K, but I can reliably hear the difference in filter types at 20kHz. I remember a study in the 80s or 90s demonstrating how we differentiate signals on carrier tones even when we can't hear them solo. At that time I could differentiate a 30kHz signal, which we all know is impossible.
I'll visit that Science Review site again. Thanks
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@tomthiel...from 12/28... on your question concerning DAC/pre’s and the Benchmark DAC... have you been to audio science review.com? I think you will find it interesting. Your Benchmark amp truly lives up to its name. The Benchmark DAC does very well, but you might be interested in the testing of others there.
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Have a question about the PX-02/05 crossovers. As we know, they are passive speaker level low pass filters to feed the Thiel active subs. They have only a single XLR output that I assume is “balanced”? So does anyone know what volts they output and if it is truly balanced? I realize it would be a function of the volts presented to it by the speaker power amplifier in question, but get me in the ballpark... |
I have to say that I wish I had the hearing that many here seem to have that they distinguish the subtlety of cables, etc. However, it is probably a good thing. What I experience is addictive enough as it is. Were my ears that good, I’d likely never get anything else done. I was able to pull up test tones on a search on Tidal. I know my Thiels can reproduce it, but I thought I’d blown my tweeter on the 14kHz tone. Nope. Just my ears. Too many live concerts over the years and work noise exposure.
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Real - I for one am interested in your comparison of your Krell vs the BHK.
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solobone22
Sorry I missed the question. I ended up trading in the Krell for the PS Audio BHK 250. |
Well in an unfortunate turn of events I had to get a new car. Now I’m back to looking at amps. I’m thinking going Aragon palladium monoblocks. 1000 watts into 2 ohms class a/b or mark levinson amps at the moment. |
solobone22
Absolutely! I do not aurally enjoy a true neutral system as well.
Too clinical, dry and thin to my ears. Silver cables will present this way on Thiel loudspeakers, especially, the newer models.
Best practice, trust your own ears. I never thought that I would enjoy an Integrated Amp? Not only did I enjoy it, I purchased one!
What other gear and cabling rounds out your current system?
Happy Listening!
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ALL
Today marks this thread's 5th Anniversary here on Audiogon. Since inception, we are acquiring and attracting new contributors and members of the Panel. Most of you guys enjoy Jim's earlier or vintage models.
It was another banner year in 2020. Hopefully, we did not lose anyone to the virus? Stay Safe, especially, those of you in the larger cities.
As for this new year, I would like to attract more Industry types.
I know that you guys are reading this thread. Feel free to drop by and say Hello. Same goes for Dealers/Retailers. With only Cabling left, this year, I will complete my system. My Audio journey took a little longer than anticipated. Would I change course or direction? No.
Thank You! to the Panel for continuing to "make it happen".
Happy Listening! |
@jafant with regards to monoblocks
I sold the Bryston 7B-ST's once I got my hands on a Krell FBI. My girlfriend was blown away by the difference as well.
I hear everyones point on clarity and truth if you will however some recordings sound awful on neutral gear/systems.
With my setups I want all of the best of Thiel without the leanness/harshness.
Listening to a wide range of recordings from various sources (stream/LP/CD etc) and genres has led me to value some coloration if you will. My goal is not to sacrifice anything that the 2.7 and 3.6 do so well while still enjoying a wide range of music.
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@therealpupalei what did you do with the Krell TAS? I have one and run it in stereo mode to a pair of 3.6's. The preamp is the Levinson 326S. This is my large orchestra setup. |
therealpupalei
You certainly have your finger on the pulse my Audiophile friend.
Have fun!
Happy Listening! |
yyzsantabarbara
I’ve just been sitting and re-listening to my collection with big smile on my face. In your honor, I’ll break out the Santana this morning!
When my 5-channel Krell amplifier died, I had to do a lot of thinking, and research, and soul searching in a short amount of time. I’ve always (for 20+ years) built and maintained a home theater setup and then used that for both music and movies. But over the years movies went from maybe 60% importance to more like 20%.
So with this 80%-music priority in mind, I decided to put the budget I had (arbitrarily) determined was reasonable into getting the best 2-ch/stereo MUSIC I could out of my "fronts" (Thiel 2.3s).
And holy crap, was that ever the right decision for me. Literally for 20 years, I’ve fiddled with placement, DOLBY PRO LOGIC (buying and installing the promising DOLBY PRO LOGIC II! upgrade for my (at the time) Anthem pre/pro), trying and dismissing and trying again 5-channel stereo (later, "multi-channel" stereo, of course), trying desperately to get the enveloping, rich, vibrant sound I craved. And now I’ve made more progress toward that goal in 2 weeks than I’d made in the 20 years before.
Long story short (too late), if I were going to put my amp $ into two channels, I’d still need something to run center and surrounds for movies/tv. And I also noticed that my trusty Onkyo pre/pro had begun its 2nd decade, with its 4 HDMI 1.4 inputs, etc. So I got a new Denon receiver to act as my pre-pro. For a 2-ch amp then, in addition to asking here, I’ve spent a lot of time on WhiteCamaroSS’s ampnanza thread (I’m on page, like, 15. I’ll be reading that for the rest of my life I think). Ultimately, I went with the PS Audio BHK Signature 250 "dual-mono". With my Krell as "trade in", I got it for just over $5k. I was excited about PS Audio being a relatively local company. Also, they have a great in-home 30 day policy, and everything I had read about the BHK 250/300s has been positive.
I don’t even know if the Denon is going to be good for my surrounds and center (I assume they will), because all I want to do is listen to stereo music. I did set the Thiels as "small" on the Denon, with a crossover at 60 hz, and have two SVS subs in the corners helping out, but the Thiels and PS are doing most of the work. I keep geeking out to my wife saying, "THIS IS JUST TWO CHANNEL!!1!???!" And she gives me that smile and nod that made me marry her long ago. |
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yyzsantabarbara
Excellent! follow-up. The CODA integrated looks sweet. I do not have a local dealer/retailer, otherwise, I would have test-driven against the AYRE.
Happy Listening! |
Listening to Santana Abraxas on the CS3.7 with 2 AHB2 and it is a night and day difference compared to a singe AHB2. Why didn’t I do this earlier? Well other than no money. What a great upgrade today.
This is truly a great speaker, even after all these years. I am so happy I bought the CS3.7 and spent all that time and money to get it to this new like level. |
@yyzsantabarbara1, Your experience sounds very similar to mine. I had a single amp that was 200 w/ch into 8 ohms, around 300 into 4, and not specd into 2. It sounded ok with my 3.7s but I was motivated enough to buy a second one when my local store put the demo unit on sale. I was surprised at the improvement. Bigger, harder hitting, and more engaging is a great way to describe the difference. |
I now have 2 very good options to power the Thiel CS3.7. Both do not publish specs for 2 Ohm operation but I spoke with the designer of each amp and they said they both have a lot of power at 2 Ohms.
I was using a single Benchmark AHB2 with a ROON convolution file that dropped my output my 10dB. So I was using close to 80% of the volume to get around 65-70db. A strain on the amp.
I now have 2 AHB2 in mono that are capable to 2 Ohm with an unpublished spec. The sound is great, a lot bigger, harder hitting, and engaging than with the single AHB2.
the volume control is also set to about to about 50% for 65-70dB via the convolution. This is a home run. Cost is $6K for both brand new.
I also got the CODA CSiB integrated the other day mainly for my RAAL SR1a headphones but I wanted to see how extra power translates with the Thiel CS3.7. In terms of the comparing it to a single AHB2 it is also was harder hitting, bigger, and engaging. I was getting totally into the music. The CODA however was not as crystal clear as the AHB2. Some may prefer that. I like the AHB2's presentation a little more because of the clarity. I guess that clarity is expressed by some softness to the sound on top. The details are there but it is not as sharply defined as the AHB2.
The CODA was in 10/10 condition, was a used unit, built in 2018, and cost $3.4K. So these are 2 really great options to power the Thiel CS3.7. Do not let the low price dissuade you from checking them out. |
A lot depends on the particulars and personality of the company. I think Vandersteen and Wilson have survived with a son taking the reins. Some companies survive via economic viability, but even there look at B&W among others who struggle to maintain a viable identity. I am told that Thiel conducted a futile years-long, worldwide search for someone to carry on Jim's work. Niche companies don't offer the financial security or up-side potential that attracts first-rate talent within a winner-take-all capitalist model. I appreciate ctsooner's remark that it's about more than profits. Performance Audio is about the love of music. Making ends meet is what has to happen to support and enable the musical progress and development.
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2nd Note;
a good point of view to consider as above. Do today's leading Audio operations have an understudy (or two) that could carry on the Founder's good work?
What would Thiel Audio look like in 2021, had Jim, had an understudy?
Thank God, we have Tom Thiel here and Rob Gillum in Lexington KY.
These Gentlemen are still flying the Flag.
Happy Listening! |
ctsooner
Always good to see you here. Add AYRE supporters as well.
It would be of interest to learn if Richard Vandersteen has a protege'
under his helm?
Happy Listening! |
Observation in this long standing thread... Theil and Vandersteen owners are similar. They are here for the love of music, more than the love of gear (which we also love). It's about companies who buck the trend and make what they feel is gear that's closer to 'the truth'. It's not even about competition with others, but about doing what they feel is right and not just about profits.
We are all similar and it's why I always enjoy posts from owners of Theil. Back to regular programing, but had to post as it just hit me. |
therealpupalei
Fancy and functional. Always trust your ears.
Happy Listening! |
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jafant "Which brand of cabling are you using?"
I bought my speaker wire, spade and banana plugs, and interconnect cables from SVSound.com. Fancy, ain't I? |
Jafant and others. I have the new Vandersteen mono blocks in the house. I had two dedicated, individually grounded 20amp circuits installed behind the system. The audio will all be on the same circuit. I'll have the TV, Router (off an LPS) running off the other one.
Waiting on the motorized quad volume control to arrive as it will be installed into my The Memory Player. Mines the prototype before they order the new two milled box units. I'll have the server, streamer, DAC and volume out of one box and all with separate LPS's etc... Stealthcaps, Vishay naked and other top components. Hopefully it will arrive this week. Can't wait.
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All
there are (3) SmartSub SS2 over on U.S. Audiomart.
Happy Listening! |
tomic601
Good to see you again in 2021. Any new gear headed your way?
Happy Listening! |
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ctsooner
Good to see you here. Happy New Year to you.
Enjoy the music!
Happy Listening! |
therealpupalei
Thank You for the follow up. Denon gear that is made in Japan is top-shelf. The CD/SACD spinners are excellent.
Which brand of cabling are you using?
Happy Listening! |
service_guy
Thank You for the Pro gear suggestion.
Happy Listening! |
Happy New Years to my Thiel friends. Hope you ae all enjoying your music... |
As a follow-up...
I went with a Denon X4700H receiver and a PS Audio BHK 250 2-ch amp driving my 2.3s. Listening in Stereo mode (2 ch + subs, 60hz crossover) is divine. My Krell Home Theater Standard NEVER sounded this full and smooth. It's a cliché, but they sound like new speakers. I'm just sitting here listening in awe. |
I do not have a pre amp compatible with those inputs |
Hi.
Should have tagged this in my last post.
AP1200 power output.
Burst Average Power 1khz (Both Channels Driven)
Watts @ 8 Ohms .......................................... 525 (x2)
Watts @ 4 Ohms .......................................... 1000 (x2)
Watts @ 2 Ohms .......................................... 1325 (x2)
Watts Bridged .............................................. 2600w @ 4ohm
2000w @ 8ohm
Burst Average Power 100khz (Both Channels Driven)
Watts @ 4 Ohms .......................................... 625 (x2)
Watts @ 2 Ohms .......................................... 1025 (x2)
Cont Avg Power (Both Channels Driven)
Watts @ 4 Ohms .......................................... 500 (x2)
Watts @ 2 Ohms .......................................... 650 (x2)
1200w rms@8ohm Bridged
1700w rms@4ohm Bridged
60 amps current.
One for sale on Canuck Audio Mart for $325 CDN. |
Hi.
@Thoft
Before spending a ton on an amp, try one of Yorkville’s AP amps, seriously they are spectacular.
More than enough power and current to drive the 3.6’s all day long.
I use an Audio Pro AP1200.
Yes they have cooling fans, you can not hear mine from 12 inches away from the amp, ambient noise is louder then the fan.
It is variable speed so mostly is is just hardly even turning.
They are made to drive low impedance, the AP1200 actually has to altered internally to drive 8 ohm loads, comes from the factory setup to drive 2 ohm and 4 ohm loads.
I know most guys look down their noses at pro gear, but suffice to say I had the designer and manufacturer of a Stereophile Class B preamp over to the house listen to my system ( which has his preamp in it) and he was impressed at how good the AP is, effortless is how he described it.
YMMV
The interconnect between the pre and power is 5x the price of the amp.......
Reach out to meet if you have questions.
Dave
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