tomthiel
Over on U.S. Audiomart there is a pair of 03A plus Active equalizer.
Happy Listening!
Over on U.S. Audiomart there is a pair of 03A plus Active equalizer.
Happy Listening!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
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jeroboam It is sad that Meridian left single-box player owners. I would think that this company would continue making spinners to promote their MQA technology? 24 years (and counting is not a bad run- at all).Yes, keep me posted on your purchase decision.IMO, Bryston, should have incorporated SACD playback in the BCD-3.Perhaps this company is working on the next generation spinner- BCD-4? Happy Listening! |
jafant: I will keep the Meridian but haven't looked into an upgrade. Meridian no longer makes single-box CD players, only an "Ultra DAC" which costs 23k. The 508.24 is a great machine, well worth what I paid for it ($3495) in 1998, but it's almost 24 years old now, and the laser and transport will not last forever. I'll keep you posted on what I end up buying, but the Bryston BCD-3 is the front-runner. |
jeroboam Thank You for citing your Serial Numbers(S/N). No- there is not a SA-10 in my area of the Southeast U.S. Not to my knowledge anyway. Yes, the Chicago-land area traditionally has one in the showroom. Wisconsin dealer/retailers do as well. A Bryston BCD-3 will be easier to score demo time.Keep me posted and have fun! Happy Listening! |
jeroboam - for the record, your 2.4s were made in Lexington with masonite point to point XO boards with American / European passive parts, and best-of-form wire. I and others consider them to be better than the later units with Chinese XOs and wire. In my explorations, I was impressed by the level of plateau-optimization of that product. Every element is as good as every other element, so that no money was wasted in the implementation. The exception is the drivers. I (and others) have replaced components and topologies, and the speaker gets better and better. But, at considerable cost. My work is to produce an upgrade at the top of the next cost pleateau: wasting no money while performing at a higher level. We have done it a few times on a few products and one of these days we'll have ways and methods to implement those changes for those who wish. |
Tom, thank you for the post. I still have my Owner's Certificate, which states my serial numbers are 985 and 986. These speakers are awesome and they impress everyone who comes by to hear them. I would never part with them. I look forward to hearing more details about your project when available! jafant, thank you. My musical tastes lean heavily to classical piano, with a chunk of jazz and 60s/70s rock thrown in. I've seen (and met) many pianists in person, from Ashkenazy to Igor Levit to Yuja Wang. I used to regularly attend the Lucerne Piano Festival (which is sadly no longer being produced). Next Friday I'll be in Chicago to hear Trifonov. Do you own the SA-10? I wish that I could audition it, but it would likely involve quite a drive. I'll see if I can locate a dealer in Chicago while I'm there next weekend. Maybe I can also listen to the Bryston, too. |
jeroboam - I recently borrowed a pair of CS2.4s (#3729-3730) with post "Thiel-grade" passive parts: (Solen caps, ERSE coils, etc.) These later crossovers morphed to Chinese-made fiberglass boards with cloned parts, polyester caps, etc. that I found to have less detail, a more cutting edge, and a little less cohesiveness and body than earlier Thiel in-house boards. Earlier in this thread Beetlemania shared his journey through replacing all elements of his (similar vintage) 2.4 crossovers with better-than-original parts on newly laid-out boards. Good journey, good reading. Your serial numbers would aid in identifying your vintage. My update on the Thiel Renaissance project is that it is still alive, albeit in the background. Life has its own demands and I am presently without a shop/studio to make much headway on this project. However, my present progress is significant and exciting; co-developing some fluid-flow solutions for more settled wave-form launch from the drivers into free air. Clarity and naturalness are improved in an area that I would have never imagined even existed. For reasons of simplicity, I am focusing my development work on Thiel's simplest product, the model 02 (1976-1984) where ideas and changes can be iterated more productively than with more complex models. My intention is to introduce a limited edition of this stand-mount monitor that builds on Jim's life work to create a very refined speaker with high musical engagement. All developments and technologies apply to later models. Details when things get closer to reality. |
jeroboam Welcome! Good to see you here. There are a few fans and owners of the CS 2.4 loudspeaker on the Panel. I read over your other post about a new CD Player. Equally good to read about a fellow CD/SACD fan as well. Bryston vs. Marantz? Both players are excellent CD players. The Marantz SA-10 is a true Reference DAC/CD/SACD spinner. It does it all. Marantz stocks the critical parts for future repair and service. Historically, Bryston has not. Owners of the original BCD-1 player were left in the cold once that player lost function. The BCD-3 is very good, I would consult Bryston on availability of stocked Critical parts. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes. Happy Listening! |
I purchased a pair of Thiel CS2.4 loudspeakers (cherry) in November 2003 from a dealer in Coral Gables FL ($3900). I'm listening to them right now. They are awesome. I've tried to follow this thread regarding an "upgrade" by Tom Thiel ... any details? I was so sad when I learned, years ago, that Thiel Audio was no longer an ongoing concern. I suspect that these 2.4s will outlive me .... |
I think I may have mentioned earlier in this thread... I actually just returned my Townshend speaker bars that I tested under my Thiel 2.7s (which sit on a sprung wood floor, covered in carpet). Like I've said, the Townshend spring based products are one of those tweaks that "actually do something" - and something measurable.The question is whether it's what someone wants. The spring based Townshend pods unequivocally reduced vibration transmission to my turntable. Easily felt, easily measured with a vibrometer app. Stopped the records from skipping when my son, who shakes the house like Frankenstein, would walk past the turntable. And when I tried some cheap spring based footers under my Thiels it was easy to feel the difference in vibration around the speaker - the floor stopped vibrating with the music once decoupled by springs. Also the sound changed obviously- the speakers disappeared more, detail seemed more pronounced and more fine. But the sound also became a bit too lean and had less punch and density. Part of that was likely due to raising the speakers on the footers. (But not entirely as raising them a similar height using isoacoustic products produced a different, darker sound). The Townshend pods designed specifically for my speaker's weight, and which also barely raised the speakers would seemed to have been the ticket. But in the end I didn't find the effects to be as dramatic as the cheap springs, which in a way was a good thing as it kept a lot of the punch and tonal balance of the speaker. But I did lose a bit of that upper midrange tone and presence - that in-the-room live sound - and there was a slight depletion of density. Ultimately I found this outweighed any of the benefits for me, and once again I found myself preferring the speakers just sitting on the floor, no spikes or anything. But I can certainly see the product working for other people, or even why someone might have even preferred the effects in my system, even if I did not. Plus they area good company to deal with. |
As I understand it, the seismic effects of the Townshend products are a byproduct but not really the thrust of the products. It is just a demonstrable, measurable performance of the degree of isolation. The lack of transmittance of vibrations - into as well as reflected from the floor - seems to be more the thrust of their approach. Townshend also addresses the "recoil" effect in his discussions. The Isoacoustics line of products addresses the same recoil issue, albeit with a different approach. May be of interest. Conventional thinking on this may be skewed. My current setup is hardwood directly glued to urban suspended prestressed concrete slab with resilient footings (mostly to not mar the flooring). The lack of a soundboard beneath the speakers seems to have made a definite difference. |
I'm one of those who hasn't really questioned spikes, since they solve the real problem of cabinet recoil slurring the tweeter output. But this isolation mechanism doesn't seem to unsolve anything - the speakers aren't free to recoil, simply decoupled from the floor. I had read about Townsend, but generally dismissed it; there's just so much to read and consider and so little time. Their claims seemed aimed at decoupling from seismic movement, and at very high prices, if I recall correctly. The skeptic in me tends to marginalize that formula. Snbeall - you can get inside the cabinet by removing the woofer. The unbraced areas are fairly small, and many will be unreachable in practical terms. Some later products also provide access via removing the bottom panel. You might consult the Stereophile review of each product to identify where JA found the most egregious resonances. Please let us know what you learn. |
Total cost for my project was just under $200. Most of that was for the butcher blocks. The springs didn't cost much and I had to buy a 1.5" diameter Forstner bit- $15. This project requires a drill press. I have been using spikes on my speakers for decades because that is what I always believed was best. I decided to try out springs just to see if the concept had merit. I can tell you my head was spinning the moment I hit play with my speakers on springs. I was amazed at the difference it made. I'm glad to have the vibration app for the iPad which helps explain why the springs work. Btw- the app also does FFT (Fast Fourier Transform from the time to frequency domain) and so I can push down on a speaker and see the 3 Hz resonance on the plot. Pretty cool. |
tomthiel et al, I assume everyone is familiar with Townshend’s isolation products? Tonywinga seems to have come up with a poor man’s Townshend Isolation platform: http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-equi... I have yet to come across any of these on the used market to try out (at least in my desired price range). But the principles converted my thinking away from spikes/hard coupling to isolation. Those unfamiliar may enjoy the read. As for those panel resonances, if I can easily get inside the cabinet, I have tried something like this (or similar) with success: https://www.parts-express.com/Sonic-Barrier-3-4-3-Layer-Damping-Material-w-PSA-18-x-24-260-530 |
elarouche Welcome! Good to see you here today. The CS 2.4 is a real Honey of a loudspeaker. Nice score! Granite plus Outriggers is a very interesting combination. Good to read that both surfaces offer a positive Aural experience. What other gear is in your current system? I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes. Happy Listening! |
I've tried Vandersteen, Dynaudio, Kef, Martin Logan and Walsh Ohm's. I became obsessed with the Thiel concept of Coherent source for some time after reading every article I could find. I finally found the perfect pair for me. Dark Cherry CS 2.4 with outriggers. Exceeded my expectations by a mile. I cannot get over how much better they are in clarity and depth compared to everything else I have owned. I have them under granite blocks to uncouple from the floor and I can't express how the imaging and soundstage are. Holographic. All the energy comes out of the speakers and not leaked through the floor. I am a true Thiel believer forever. |
Hi Jafant et al. I have been reading about isolation on other threads and watching some videos online. I became intrigued and wanted to isolate my Thiel CS6 speakers with springs but not spend $1000's doing it. Last weekend I came up with an idea to use butcher blocks and coil springs as stands for the speakers. Easy enough to calculate the spring rate needed to keep the resonance point of the speaker stands at 3 Hz. I ordered the springs I needed from McMaster Carr. Reference my system page for a picture and a couple of paragraphs with details. I drilled pockets into the butcher blocks to hold the springs and keep the travel down to about 0.100" so the speakers are fairly stable. I downloaded a vibration analysis app onto my iPad. Here is the interesting part which I also saw demonstrated online. With the iPad sitting on top of the speaker and the speaker coupled to the floor with the spikes, I tap on the speaker cabinet with a steel ball and I can see not just the impulse on the screen but I also see the cabinet ringing for a few moments. I can tap the steel ball on the floor and see the exact same impulse and ringing on the iPad app still sitting on top of the speaker. But when I placed the speaker on the spring platform and tap the speaker cabinet with the steel ball, the impulse appears but the ringing is gone. I tap the steel ball on the floor and see no impulse at all on the iPad. The speaker is completely isolated from the floor. I think the ringing is caused by the vibration energy going into the floor and being reflected back into the speaker cabinet spikes or no. By the speaker being completely isolated the reflections are eliminated. As expected the imaging became even more focused. Clarity improved greatly. Drum beats are tight and clear. I just isolated my amplifiers using the same design and springs. Since my amps weigh 100 lbs apiece the same springs work out with only a few tenths of a Hz increase in resonance frequency. There is good and bad to all this. The good is that it sounds great and I hear much more detail. On digital material the music now decays forever. I hear low level background noise on more digital files now. The bad is that I hear more detail to the point of distraction. On an acoustic recording this evening I heard a low level buzz off to the right. Immediately I thought I had a buzzing tweeter. My anxiety went through the roof. I jumped up and put my ear close to the speaker and I could hear the buzz. It was apparently a bad cable in the recording. Next song was ok. Whew! I heard a sound in another song but this time I switched my preamp to mono and the noise moved to center so speakers are fine. Spring isolation works just be careful what you wish for. |
In case anyone is interested, TMR has listed a pair of Thiel CS 2.3 in natural cherry for $1299 + $299 for shipping. Serial#
4740, 4739
Condition listed as 8 out of 10. https://tmraudio.com/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/thiel-cs2-3-floorstanding-speakers-natural-cher... |
Dspr - it seems to me that if there is a difference, the outriggers would be an improvement, not just different strokes. In product design, we always have to stop somewhere, and spikes in the base is where we stopped. I can see how a broader base of support would improve launch integrity, but can't visualize how it might hurt. (But, of course, imagination has its own limits!) A recent (these past year(s)) observation is how surprisingly active the top and bottom of the cabinets are. I found "it" on the 2.2, but it's on all the models, contrary to my assumption that the small size and therefore relatively greater effective stiffness of those end panels would make them inert. In fact, the 2.2 has extremely small size and moves enough to hear / measure. Bottom similarly. The vertical air column dynamics and and end effects of the panels work to concentrate vibrational forces at the column ends. I think that absorbing / neutralizing the energy being transmitted into the spikes and therefore the floor would help quiet the cabinet. (To wit, all those pucks and springs and geometries of isolation feet.) I've been introduced to an Italian casting product developed as an acoustical cement for damping resonances in highway bridges, among other applications. It has promise both for inside the panels and as pin pucks. I don't know whether you guys know our youngest brother John. He's recently retired as the senior bridge maintenance engineer for the USA. He's a civil / structural engineer who knows this kind of stuff. |
@tomthiel dsper - "I'll chime in regarding spikes and outriggers.... I appreciate the response. Even with their weight, the CS5i's can almost seem a bit tipsy so I could understand outriggers providing more geometric support. How the sound could improve because of a wider base is harder for me to conceptualize from an analytical, logical perspective. As with anything else in this hobby, I guess I need to try outriggers and determine if I can hear a difference. I suspect that there might be a sound difference but is it necessarily better versus simply being different. Sort of similar to enjoying my CJ preamp but also like listening to my Axiom II passive. Different strokes but is one better than the other..... In the meantime, I will stick to playing with interconnects as I "know" that those can improve/worsen the sound. On the other hand, what if the outriggers could be an "aha" moment?! Thanks for listening! Dsper |
Saturday Audio Exchange in Chicago has a pair of CS 1.2 available for $299 ... local pickup only. http://www.saturdayaudio.com/gear/thiel-cs-12 |
jafant, I'm not an Audio manufacturer. I'm in Professional Motorsports so I do not have a line of audio products. With that said I'm afforded the ability to design and process various parts/projects for audio quite easily as its a hobby of mine. I've made aluminum outriggers and I've made Panzerholz/tankwood speaker bases and the latter was sonically superior. I'm familiar with the CS 2.4, CS 2.4SE, and CS 2.7 as I have all three in addition to CS6 and CS 7.2. |
duramax747 Good to see you here again. Thank You for posting information that may be of value to others here regarding Outriggers. During my auditions (CS 2.4, CS 2.4SE, CS 2.7 and CS 3.7), it was interesting to observe how model CS 2.4 SE responded a measure sonically versus the other 3 loudspeakers. It was a very subtle positive reflection to my ears. Sharper in focus, imaging and soundstage. A considerable amount of time was spent with CS 2.4 prior to auditioning models CS 2.4SE, CS 2.7 and CS 3.7 loudspeakers. Outrigger use, or not, exhibited no impact on models CS 2.4, CS 2.7 nor CS 3.7. Each loudspeaker sounded very fine with/without Outriggers. Are you products still in Research and Development? Happy Listening! |
