Thiel Owners

Hi all, I'm looking for some advice on a Thiel purchase and hope you all can help me out.  I auditioned a local pair of CS6 yesterday and really enjoyed them- very natural sounding, room filling, detailed.  They had a ML23.5 in front of them.  I noticed on songs with sparse instrumentals, when bass was going I could hear some buzz coming from what I believe was the midrange on one speaker.  I'm attaching a link to a sample here.  I really liked the speakers and don't see them often near me, should I still get them, or steer clear?  What would a fair price be?  Would you recommend getting the 23.5 as well?  A friend told me about Rob, so I sent him an email last night to get his take.  Appreciate your thoughts on these, thanks very much!!  https://imgur.com/DFZFIEV 

jafant , brettmcee

Thanks very much for the feedback! I've only recently gotten more serious about hifi so have picked up a few rigs over the past few months, and I would consider the CS6 to be better than most speakers I've heard recently.  I'm hopeful that Rob can offer some good advice this week and help guide my decision, because I don't imagine there will be too many CS6s local to me.  The seller's requesting 2500 which seems reasonable, but not if the repair will be another 500.  I potentially have some 3.6 to audition this weekend as well, but I'm still more excited about the 6 to be honest. 

Regarding the amp, I'm on the east coast. I'd be curious to hear people's take on pairing modern amps compared to the 23.5.  In this case, it hasn't had any work done to it but looks in good shape at least.  I see amps pop up on CL that look good on paper and cost less, how do you know when you've found a solid pairing for your speakers?  I like how classic the amp is and the speakers sounded great with it, but he wants 2500 for that also, and it sounds like a tuneup would be quite pricey.  

Thanks again for the perspectives, glad to have found the thread!

Sorry late response, seems I'm not getting notifications on the thread:/ 

Thanks guys for the info, great advice here!  So the system was a Theta Casablanca ii going via balanced cables into the ML23.5.  From there, I can't recall anything special about the cables though they seemed thicker than my bare 12awg I have, nothing crazy though.  For testing, I brought an ipad and went from the headphone out to RCA of the Theta, max volume on the ipad.  This setup was how I was able to repeatedly hear the buzzing from bass notes. I then brought a separate setup to try and isolate the issue, SMSL SU-8 to XTZ A2-300 with a direct usb connection from the ipad, same issue. 

I spoke with Rob (nice guy!) and he told me to pull the tweeter to eliminate that, and the problem could still be heard but stopped when I put my finger gently on the surround of the midrange.  I noticed the cone was a little loose.  Rob feels it's the midrange in need of a rebuild, though also suggested rotating the driver as well. 

I'll reach out to Bill tomorrow, he's very close to me and I should've thought about him.  Can I swap the midrange drivers easily to ensure that the problem is isolated to the driver?  

Regarding amp choices,  I'm open to the 23.5 as I know it's already a good match.  I see skyfi has a BAT VK500 right now for roughly the same price as the 23.5 as well.  I would welcome any advice on how to find a good pre amp to pair with either.  There's an Eagle 2 on ebay for 700, wow that's a lot cheaper than the other two.  It's tricky for a noob like myself to have an intuitive sense of what amps work with such power hungry, low sensitivity speakers.  Compared to amps, buying speakers seems easy!

Thanks for the insight guys, I was actually leaning towards the BAK VT500 but two votes in the ML camp says something right there.  Any tips on how to tell its condition other than the fins being black (which they are)?  Seems to work just fine from what I can tell and of course I have no complaints on the sound.  

Thanks guys, I was hesitant about the ML because I read they're difficult to work on, which I figure would translate to high maintenance costs/difficulty finding a shop.  I'm going to ask Bill about that tomorrow to see if he works on them.   

I considered going with a Crown, it's obviously much cheaper and meant to work at those ohms.  The eagle is also quite reasonably priced too and the seller takes returns, so that's attractive as well.

Any thoughts on pre amps?  Is having an expensive (to me) power amp a waste if I don't get an equally capable (read pricey) pre amp?  Or can I be less fussy about a pre, so long as the basic voltage gain reqs are there?  I don't think the seller is interested in selling his Theta along with the ML. That theta is also huge, probably bigger than the ML!

Thanks guys for all the help here.  I'm going over tonight for one last listen, and if I like what I hear think I'll pull the trigger, probably for the speakers and amp.  I'm confident having talked with Rob about the driver issue and how to resolve it, and the amp I know pairs well and is in working order, plus with its iconic status I think that won't hurt any resale prospects either.  Will let you know how it all goes!

@unsound , thanks for the advice, I think it's a great point especially with something like a ML that I read are labor intensive to work on.  I couldn't make it tonight to check them out but hopefully get out there this weekend.  Appreciate the words of caution.

I like the idea unsound, having peace of mind is big for when I'm stretching my budget like in this situation, thanks.

Hi all, hope everyone had a great holiday!  I'm already ready for the next 3 day weekend.   I was able to listen to two different setups this weekend, thought I'd share my impressions- the first were the CS6 with the ML23.5, and the second a pair of CS3.6 with a Krell KAV-1500.  Very interesting to hear both in the same weekend! 

While both were similar sounding and obviously in the same family, I felt the 6s just had that extra bit of naturalness  to them over the 3.6.  There was a SLIGHT veil sound behind the 3.6 that I don't remember there being with the 6s, almost like a high end set of JBL, but with more Thiel characteristics if that makes sense.  I did notice a little more sibilance on the 6s however in a track I use to test that.. 

Not sure if the difference was in the amp choices, the concrete baffling in the 6s, or something else because the driver array seems pretty darn similar to me.  Maybe my mind is just playing tricks on me, tough to say with so many variables and time in between listenings.   Still on the fence myself because of finances, although the KAV has been offered to me at a discount so I intend to buy that regardless.  Have a great night!

@pops  @unsound  , 

Thanks so much guys for the honest opinions, I really appreciate the insight that I'd have nowhere else to get this from. 

For the speakers- don't tempt me pops, my house is already beginning to swell with audio gear as it is! Great distinctions there. 

Regarding the amps, appreciate the info on the KAV, it sounded quite good to me and never got warm, but I see what you mean now about it being geared towards the AV crowd, I still think it is a useful piece to hang on to for the time being.  But if the sound difference was due in part to the amps, I can see how the ML gets the nod.  

Oh and Jafant, audio journey is a great description, such a good rabbit hole!  Thanks all.

@tonywinga  , cool trick on raising the fronts!  Haven't heard of that before.  I try not to accept what I hear in auditions as the final word on their sound obviously, so I'll be sure play around with positioning like you suggested once I get them in my hot little hands.  

I hope to be able to have some updates in the coming few days for everyone, I'll be sure to let you know my impressions once I have things setup in my house.  

Hi all, 

  Hope everyone had a great new year.  So it took a few days but I'm now the proud owner of a pair of 3.6s being fed by a Mark Levinson 23.5:)  The 3.6s will need a tweeter repaired which I'm waiting on Rob to get to back to me about, but they were a deal nonetheless and even with the issue, they sound great- very natural and room filling at the same time.  I'll hold off any observations till the issue is resolved, but I wanted to ask your thoughts on skipping a pre amp and just using a DAC, since my inputs will be all digital for now.  I'm considering the RME ADI2 or perhaps something simpler without all the features, is anyone out there skipping the preamp altogether and using the DAC alone?  Can the pre amp really give me more?  As some of you have pointed out, giving tubes a try would certainly be fun.  I suspect some of the hi-fi preamps with digital inputs and balanced outs, etc. could end up out of my price range.  

Side note- I still have the option to pick up the CS6s which I'm seriously considering, but one thing at a time and this made sense financially for me. Decisions decisions:)  Thanks all!

vair68robert , 

Thanks for the info, I never even knew about a passive pre amp until yesterday, I'm curious about it and given your experience will look more into it.  Honestly I have no issue with using a DAC as the pre amp, just that you read reviews that gush over pre amps, and it makes you feel like "whelp, I guess without one I'll never achieve true audio nirvana".  I guess part of the pre amp appeal to me is based around my fear of anything with a digital display as I could have an all-analog pre amp, and a simpler DAC, no touch screens or LCDs needed.

I'll look through this thread more in depth over the weekend to read more about the topic at hand, appreciate the heads up!

@unsound ​​@vair68robert 
  Great insight you all are offering, your patience with the noob here is greatly appreciated!  I have to agree that in this case, the pre amp seems like a superfluous addition, I think the DAC pre will work great for my purposes.  Unsound, thanks for the real-world example about the voltage matching, I've seen references to that concept before on youtube that left me with some head scratching, but your example drove it home nicely.  

219 pages...maybe we could throw some chapter markings in here or something!

Thanks for the clarification unsound, I'm very curious to learn more about the bit stripping as that's new to me, will definitely read up on that.  I've looked at a few DACs recently, and I've been making sure they do 32 bit per your suggestion (leading choice is the RME, also checking into the voltage on it as well).  

Great, thanks again, I think that shouldn't be too hard to find with the current lineup out there.  

Thanks unsound, reading about not just the output V ->input V principle, but also reading up on the relationship between dBu and voltage (a link in the thread) seems so fundamental, it's odd how little the subject is brought up on the mainstream consumer level.  Thanks for pushing me to learn more here, I'm looking forward to playing around with this.

Tomthiel, great suggestion on the Benchmark!  I appreciate the purity of the B, but the HGC I think fits my needs a little more right now.  Regardless, they all seem to have great reviews, lots of functionality, and no frills.  Still reading up on it (ironically, output voltage is the one spec that I don't see listed!), but it's at the #1 spot right now for me.  

Thanks tomthiel, looks like XLR gives three levels of attenuation, while RCA is fixed.  For my purposes, I'd be using XLR.  Reading through forums, there are pros and cons for both the RME (pro version) and the DAC3.  My head is thoroughly hurting from analysis paralysis, but I have to wait to get the tweeter addressed anyway, so I've got time.  Good news is I think it's a can't lose decision, thanks again for the rec.

So I finally got time to pull the dead tweeter from my 3.6, and it was kind of odd- the front "plate" holding the tweeter and rubber parts on had separated from the main body of the driver, and I noticed the gasket had a twist in it, so clearly someone has been in there before me.  I ran a track through it and there was no sound, did the same with the other tweeter and was able to hear some tunes.  I'm planning to send it to Rob, hopefully it's a simple fix and I can be on my merry audio way.  

Unsound, sent you a PM hope that's okay, I didn't want to keep spamming the thread here with my noob knowledge of all things electrical:/

asiaaudiosoc,

 Thanks very much for the candid opinion on the RME!  I'm not very experienced in all of this, but I know enough that when multiple people on this thread don't seem hot on a DAC, it's time to look elsewhere.  I was also hesitant due to all the bells and whistles, not really my style.

  I'm still quite interested in the benchmark, but as always welcome suggestions.  This weekend I found a CIAudio VDA2 DAC that I had forgot I had, I'm curious to try that out once I get the tweeter back (though I understand that it's probably not on the benchmark level).  Thanks again!

tomthiel, very cool story, thanks for sharing!