Thiel Owners
Hi jafant, Happy Friday and St. Patrick's Day.
After a little more digging on the Smith Connector's Hyper Series, there is variety of sizes, metals, termination style (crimp, solder cap, straight) and cost. For example, 3.5mm socket/pin is ~$50 vs 1mm pin/socket is $5. Not suggesting this is better than GK Electra because I don't factually know. Links: Distributor with pricing Would put together spreadsheet compiling all the relevant datasheet information and costs if there is interest. |
@anzen It looks like you have everything in control , I apologize for stepping in . If those are 100v 100uf electrolytic caps you might consider replacing them with Mundorf caps . I will be receiving the 1uf 400v Purity caps and installing them on the tweeter side of the 2.7 board , I will be measuring the space available for the 1uf cap on the mid side to see if I can fit a 630v if not I know the 400v will fit ( there is even an 800v that is only 2mm larger than the 630v ) . I don't know how much difference the higher voltages will make but Tom , beetle and other audiogon forum responses indicate that higher is better .
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I would like to get back to a popular topic about which budget solid state amp will match up adequately with my Thiel CS 2 2 speakers which I bought back in the early 1990's. I play them every day in my HT setup which is powered by a 6 year old Denon AVR x4200W which puts out 125 watts into 8 ohms and 165 watts into 4 ohms with more distortion per specs. I will play cd's and I have an older Thorens TD 145-MK II from 1979 which I use the 2 channels for the higher wattage. I Know using the Denon in full 7 channel HT gives maybe 78 W rms per channel which is probably not adequate. I have been looking at the the new Emotiva Basx-2 which seems to have good reviews. I am also checking out used, much older gear, many of which I had used with the Thiels back in the 80's and 90's but don't remember the pros and cons I had. These include original Bryston 3 B, Adcom GFA-555, small Parasound for extra surround channels, Chiro, which I found to be nice sounding, but sold because they went out of business. I also had B&K, Dynaco ST-416 with extra capacitor unit and HK Citation Series, but these were way before I had the Thiels. I originally had the CS 2 model, but sold them and upgraded when the CS 2 2 came out at Sound Components in Coral Gables, S Florida. I am only considering solid state at $500 +/- I have speakers in a family room 20 deep by 16 ft wide into an open kitchen. I don't do much serious listening anymore and don't play them too loud. Flooring is all tile and there are no sound treatments. My speaker cable is original Striaghtwire Maestro, power cords are original Shunyata Sidewinders with all going into an original Clean Line VansEvers PLC with 8 assorted outlets. I have the Denon going into the power amp outlet for maximum power. Thanks in advance for any advise. I have been following this thread for many years and have learned a lot through it. |
@vair68robert - Actually, your comment made me go back and check how watts and thermals work on resistors. Appreciate that, and felt it was something I missed. Thankfully Tom was able to chime in. Secondly, I did pick up Mundorf 100uf electrolytic capacitors since they were on sale, but was before your suggestion to check the sizes. There is a noticeable size difference and not sure they will fit properly on the original PCB. It's likely a throwaway effort if the end result is going film capacitors. Didn't have much luck finding a CS2.7 crossover photo just to see the layout and the 1uf capacitors. I also remember the same folks in this topic mentioning the higher voltage was better. Someone, and can't remember who, had 2xx volt capacitors and didn't mind them. Very curious to hear what voltage you go with and ultimately what you think of the Purity capacitors sound . jafant - You asked earlier about the sound after doing the SE capacitor update. Instantly, it was clearer and continued to get better since break-in. T-Bone Burnett, Allison Krauss and Robert Plant's album Raising Sand, track 7 "Trampling Rose" has kicked my system in the backside along the way. When her voice goes high, I have heard it muddied and seemly off tone. When switching to Neotech OCC interconnects, it finally cleared up enough at the very top notes and with the SE kit, the vibrato could finally be heard as clear as day. Since there was a lot of discussion around amps earlier, I am using a Classe CA-2200 with some older Audioquest Midnight II cables. Cables will be updated either during or after this project. |
audio1326
Welcome! Good to see you today. Thank you for citing your System.
The Panel has a few CS 2.2 fans and owners, stay tuned until those guys chimes in to address your query. I look forward in reading more about Musical tastes.
Happy Listening! |
anzen I've posted photos on the virtual system folder . you will see the original bd. and the work in progress of the coaxial board with 3 Mundorf caps , the board as I am using it now has another mundorf cap and a 15uf ERSE cap on top of the 3 . You will see the 1uf next to them , when you open the VS page count down 19 rows you'll see my Turntable .
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audio 1326 - I can comment on some of your possibilities. I have used the CS2.2s since 1990 in all kinds of applications; I know them better than anything else. They are a target for my upgrade activities, so significantly improved performance will be gotten from them in the future. At Thiel we had an original Bryston 3B (as well as its successors). I find it somewhat brittle despite its big bottom end. The STs are an improvement, and the 'cubed' series is first-rate. The Denon is current-limited by definition - it does not double its output into half the load impedance. But as JA mentioned, Japanese made Denons have good bones. And theCS2.2 only drops below 4 ohms for limited time and has a very flat impedance curve, much gentler than later designs. So, it will work. I like your Adcom GFA555 much better. The earlier Japanese boards use a higher quality transistor shared with the GFA535. Nelson Pass's designs have simple circuitry dependent on high parts quality. I have two of these amps and the earlier (Japanese) has a distinctly cleaner sound. The GFA555 (straight, series I) can be upgraded by Jim Williams of Audio Upgrades in Carlsbad CA at two levels-the higher using film resistors. The upgraded units punch way beyond their price class. I use a pair in bridged mono configuration as part of my listening and test setup. |
jafant - Yes, I have been working with Dave since I began this venture in 2018. We have had 3 orders in total to compare critical elements using CSA, CMR (plain and encapsulated) and now Purity - all in the range of voltages. I've also compared other brands and borrowed from Dave some exotic flat stack and series caps. I'm quite confident regarding where the path has led. This present delivery took a year due in part to fallout from Covid, in part from start-up rigors of the Purity line and, in part due to two ownership changes at ClarityCap. Things now seem to be on solid footing. A couple of developments: one is the Purity line which multiplies the advantages of the CSA copper end caps which are 1mm thick, and outperform every other end cap I've studied or heard. Purity increases those caps to 10mm thick which allows some 3D geometric utilization. Purity were projected to add 30% to the CSA cost at the same voltage, but in fact have approximately tripled the price of the CSA. The Van den Hull pure silver wire is now only available in Purity line whereas it had also been an option (very worthwhile) in CSA. Dave had also guided me to testing Reliable's RTX (best) ultra-bypass caps which use a multiple parallel x series configuration for astonishingly good performance at a very affordable price. Wilson bought Reliable and has tripled the prices, which may still be worthwhile. Meanwhile Duelund has some magical stacked foil caps that are oh so good at considerably higher cost. My challenge is choosing combinations of caps that retain Thiel's traditional value orientation, albeit on a higher plateau. Thiel is not Wilson or Magico. We won't be incorporating $1K caps. Dave has been an enormous help, and generous with sharing his extensive knowledge. Again, thanks for the introduction. |
tomthiel
Outstanding! Good to read that you are working with Dave. He is one of this thread early adopters. In a previous life he was a proponent for Thiel Audio. You are in excellent company! Give the fans and owners on The Panel a cost analysis of Clarity Caps in 2023. Have fun in your Hot Rod space.
Happy Listening! |
Quick update - CS2.4 coax and woofer PCBs now have Mills MRA12 resistors and Mundorf elecrolytics. Not finding newer 28uf and 14uf capacitors and going back to 27uf+1uf and 13uf+1uf not likely to fit well at all. These PCBs may have gone as far as they can go. It is possible to get the SE update from Rob (legacy technology), Mills MRA12 resistors and Mundorf 100uf electrolytics. There is some space between the .15mh/18ga inductor and 28uf capacitor but not likely a good setup.
Not ideal (might redo and lay flat):
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Tom, I agree with your assessment of the original Bryston, great and tight bottom end bass, but upper frequencies were hard sounding with the Thiels. I went to an Aragon 100W @ 8 ohms power amp, was a little hard sounding but switched to tube preamps, 1st a lower end Counterpoint which I didn't like that much and then a CJ preamp which improved the mids and highs of the Thiels. I wanted to go HT multi-channel and bought a used Chiro combo of preamp and 3 and 2 channel amps which I though sounded great. I got nervous when the company went out of business and sold them around 20 year ago, miss them, for a Denon 125W x 7 CH AVR with the fancy RC-2 remote. Used for 6 years, but the GUI went out and I bought a newer Denon AVR also 125 w. I still have the original AVR set at 5 CH, but no on-screen due to bad GUI board. I thought about using this for the main front amps for the Thiels, but specs only indicated 6 ohms, didn't see 4 ohn capable. Do you know anyone with success using a newer Emotiva Basx 2 CH power amp which is rated at 240 W at 4 ohms? I have 2 Gallo round subs for the base, but still run Thiels at large which taxes the Denon? Some say to set it to small? Back to the CS 2 2's, I have noticed the high end seems distorted and hard on the ears, but I am not sure what the cause is yet, I have to do some trouble shooting by substituting other main speakers. I have been considering selling the Thiels, but realizee the cost of replacing them would be many $1,000's. I have seen reviews and ads for SVS Tower speakers for around $900 each, but haven't heard them yet. I have read about tweeters and mid-ranges having to be rebuilt or replaced after some time. I believe the speakers are around 32 years old and have been used at normal volumes almost every day. I am interested in possible lower cost upgrades I can do myself with limited skills. I have read the drivers can be removed and shipped at a much lower cost. I live in S Florida near Ft Lauderdale, have the original shipping boxes, but know just the 2 way shipping to Rob at Coherent would be quite expensive. Any upgrades suggestions would be greatly appreciated and what I should convey to Rob. Sorry for the long e-mail, but I know you appreciate lots of details from the many informative posts you have put on this thread. I never heard of Thiel speakers, but in 1986 I accompanied a friend down to Sound Components in Coral Gables to see Peter where my friend was shown the original CS-2 speakers which we auditoned and were blown away. He put a deposit on them, but changed his mind and bought something else. I was so impressed that I sold my speakers, I believe Kef's, and purchased the pair he had on hold. I switched about 6 years years later to the CS 2 2's which I have enjoyed for over 30 years. The last year the sound changed, but I will be doing my trouble shooting this week to see what I can narrow this down too. My other equipment are both vintage Thorens TD-145 MK II with original Shure V-15 Type IV cartridge with new Shibata stylus, not even 3 total hours of use. Heard the stylus needs break-in. Original Cal Audio Icon MK II with the Power Boss HDCD upgrade. Thank you again in advance for your response. I am really forward to your input on my many questions Richard
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Richard - despite the detail I put into my own responses, I am not very familiar with with very much equipment on the market. So I can't provide any meaningful comments on particular equipment and setups. I can say to avoid any amp that doesn't specifically state their 4-ohm load performance because if it could, they would say so - so it can't. A straining amp is the most common cause of tweeter failure - by far. You trouble-shooting should identify whether or not your high-frequency problem is indeed a tweeter problem. If it is, you hit 'our' problem on the head. That Thiel UltraTweeter moving system is obsolete, and the soft-dome replacement available from Madisound has different sonic characteristics. It will work, and we will eventually have a certified replacement. There is also a drop-in midrange replacement from Madisound. My (eventual) replacements will be performance upgrades over the originals. I suggest pulling the woofers and examining the crossover boards. Your electrolytic caps could be at end of life. Look for bulged cases and evidence of high heat. We have proven considerable sonic / performance upgrades via crossover upgrades via parts, layout and thermal management. Circumstances have prevented timely progress, but patience will be rewarded. I suggest you keep the critters. Keep us posted about your progress. |
I'd be reluctant to drive Thiels as the main channels with any AVR. Driving Thiels as surrounds with a receiver rated at 4 ohms shouldn't be that difficult as typically the DSP in the receiver re-directs the bass to the sub or subs. I have an integrated AV system (my main system) with an outboard amp driving my 3.7s and the receiver (Onkyo TX-RZ 31000) driving the remaining channels, including a Thiel MCS1 center and Thiel SCS2s as the side and rear surrounds and Thiel Power Points as the front Atmos channels. |
I forgot to mention in my prior 2 posts about the high frequencies of my Thiel CS 2 2 speakers not sounding as smooth as they used to be. About a year ago I cleaned the entire dusty grille without taking the grille covers off, I used a powerful central vacuum with the soft bristles attachment on a long hose. I don't remember if the speakers were playing or not. After this cleaning, I did notice the highs sounded a little different to me, slightly distorted or scratchy? I have read that these tweeters are highly sensitive and this may be my 1st place to look. I believe mid and woofer still sound good. I will do a listening test today. I will have to call Rob about tweeter rebuild or replacement units he may have. I checked Madisound and their replacement tweeter for my model is out of stock. I didn't receive any responses if anyone had tried the Emotiva Basx 2 or 3 amp with these speakers and were happy with it. Currently using Denon Avr X4200 in a 7 ch setup. For CD and Phono using in 2 ch to achieve highest wattage. Thanks to all and look forward to your feedback. Richard |
Happy Friday @jafant! Purchased a PS Audio Perfectwave MK II DAC from an electronics recycler. Case is in rough shape but does power on. Arrives Monday or Tuesday. Not expecting much to work but unless it's complete junk, the plan is to restore and perhaps get a DirectStream upgrade kit if one becomes available. Headed to Colorado in June and will stop by PS Audio for a tour since those are available again. Curious to hear how the Purity cap integration work is going.
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I’m the original owner of CS 1.2's, they’ve been in storage for a while but am about to put them back into use in a renovated room. Looks like lots of talk about recapping here, is there recommendations for this model? Also, may be time for new foam, is there a source for the material there too? Thanks! |
rc1985 - I can offer some general thoughts. The 1988 CS1.2 is a worthy speaker, having our first copper shunting rings on the woofer and our first aluminum tweeter (with ferro-fluid). Its development paralleled the 1989 CS5 and shared technology development between those co-products. I consider the CS1.2 as definitely worthy of up-grade. Your woofers are from Vifa and have rubber surrounds. Foam went out with the original 'O' series. The surrounds should be renewable with rubber rejuvenator. I suggest you contact Rob Gillum at CoherentSource Service for recommendations. I have done work on the successor CS1.5, but not yet on the 1.2. I am willing to get XO information and make recommendations. However, I will caution that replacing XO components is a rather expensive route to higher performance. We might rather look at other low-hanging fruit of port aerodynamics, grille-board attachment, wire, terminals, XO placement and signal routing. We can wade in via PM if you wish. |
Ok guys i’ve been using the Isoacoustics Gaia 2 on my 3.7s for the last week with and without the carpet discs and i have to say i’m pretty disappointed at the moment. With the carpet discs bass is very lean and tonality seems not right. Also one thing i don’t like at all about the Gaia 2s is that you don’t hear the tweaks that you put into your system like yor exemple the Vertere Pulse HB Ethernet cable that i purchased lately which completely blew me away prior to the Gaia 2s well now i don’t hear it anymore. Anyway this is my first take, i’ll have some friends over at my place next week we’ll see what they think. For the time being i removed the Gaia 2s. |
Well...I might suggest that it's not the Gaias to blame for not hearing differences with an expensive "audiophile" ethernet cable. But...that's another subject... I didn't care for the Gaia 2 on my Thiel 2.7s with the carpet spikes. Also leaned out the tone a bit. But once I took the carpet spikes off coupling the Gaia directly on the carpet (over wood floor) I find out to be a nice 1/2 point between gaias and no gaias - some nice sonic benefits, but still nice tone. |
Hi All - thanks for responding, not even sure my CS 1.2's need a re-cap, just that it's been 30 years. Thought some might have cooked up a formula for installing new transistors at home, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Hoping I don't need to ship them out for work, and they may need nothing. So how do the electronics in Thiels generally hold up over time, and is it better to leave well enough alone? |
Thiel placed focused attention on product longevity. The caps are high-temperature / long life, and resistors and coil are (practically) immortal. Driver tinsel leads might eventually fatigue and fail, but in the absence of extreme use or upstream problems, they rarely fail. I have 01s from 1980 still intact. For peace of mind you might pull the woofers and look around. |
@prof Yes i agree directly on the carpet without the carpet spikes is much better but i still prefer the original Thiel spikes vs the Gaia 2s overall, bass is much better in my case without the Gaia 2s. A friend of mine told me to try the Gaia 2 on granite before making a final decision. I will give this a try and if no positive results i will send them back.
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JA - Let’s call off the hunt for additional 02s. I have 4 pair which are serving my purposes well. As an update, I have used them as a baseline to directly compare ’normal’ vs ’phase coherent’ as well as additional approaches and solutions. The 02 has both positive-polarity drivers with the woofer following the tweeter output by a nicely timed single cycle. This is where Wilson and most others landed after experimenting with British style reversed polarities. The 02 had hand-wound coils and entry level xo components from which I mapped the upgrade territory. For the ongoing laminar wavelaunch development with Doug Pauly, we settled on fairly radically modded 02s with the woofers on a standoff and tweeters behind a wave-guide, and first order slopes. The drivers and XOs were changed to CS.5s which are better in every way than the original 02s. The cabinets have been braced via various methods, teaching effective solutions going forward. In short, the 02s have served as a learning lab and launch pad from which we have graduated to the SCS4s which incorporate most of Jim’s late career advancements, and are now carrying the development load and teaching additional lessons in an economical, compact and more sophisticated package. From my personal perspective, coherence lifts veils that allow my work to move forward. So, let’s consider the 02 as a lovely historical starting-point for Thiel’s journey. A pair provides daily music in my living room. |
Hi All, I'm quite busy and just have time to update you on the result of GAIA I Footer. I am coming back to tell you the result of GAIA I Footer with My Thiel CS7.2 I put them on the Granite floor. I think the result is quite impressive for me. The SoundStage is very stable. The positions of each component is a lot more precise and clear. Bass is so tight and deeper. I really enjoy this set of GAIA I Footer and I believe this is very justify investment for me (Even they cost me the same to a good pair of bookshelf speakers in the market) Really recommend this to the one who will put them on Granite floor. I heard that the result of GAIA footer may not be good for carpet. However the result on the Granite floor are quite impressive (I assume the wood floor will give you a similar result to Granite’s) Thiel CS7.2 on GAIA I Footer + Customs Outrigger + My System Mar 2023 @jafant to answer your question regarding to my Cables/Cords. Here is the list. Speaker Cable: MIT MH770 Spectral UltralInear II Interconnects: SOTM Network Switch to Computer Audio Transport: AudioQuest Vodka CAT8 LAN Computer Audio Transport to Diretta: Wireworld CAT8 LAN Directta to DAC: AudioQuest Diamond USB DAC to Pre Amp: Purist Audio Design Proteus Provectus RevC XLR Pre Amp to Power Amp: Transparent Reference Series MusicLink (Gen2) XLR
Power Cords SOTM Network Switch: SOTM Liner Power Supply Computer Audio Transport: Plixir Linear Power Supply Diretta: Plixir Linear Power Supply DAC: Furutech DPS 4.1 with FI-50/FI-50M NCF Pre Amp: Elrod Statement II 15A Power Amp: Elrod Statement I 20A
Wall Outlets: Furutech GTM-D NCF(R) x 2 with Furutech ClearLine
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I spoke to Rob and he said I should check for proper ohms of a small 66 ohm resistor on the crossover board. I have not done that yet, but have been checking other things in my system. I think all of the drivers may be OK. I have a few older Vansevers PLC which have switches to adjust the speed of the transients which I had set to the high settings. I set them to their lower settings and I can hear a difference. I will leave them at this setting and do more critical listening. I also have 5 Shunyata Sidewinder power cords which may be affecting the upper frequencies? I am considering adding 1 15 or 20 amp dedicated line, have heard this makes a difference, especially since my listening room shares the same breaker as my kitchen with an older refrigerator. I decided to add an external amp to power the main front Thiel CS 2 2 instead of my 6 year old Denon Avr 4200 which has 125 w rms into 8 ohms and 165 w into 4 ohms with only 2 ch driven. More like 78 w 8 ohms and maybe 100 w 4 ohms. I was considering an older vintage Adcom GFA 555 amp, which I had before my Thiels in the 1980's and liked the sound. I see them for $400 to $600, but this is original and know I would have to shop them and recap which is probably not going to be cheap. I have been researching new low cost amps with very good reviews. The Emotiva Basx 2 or 3 caught my attention and would like to try one, they have a 30 day return policy. Most of the used amps show no returns and you never know what you are getting? Any thoughts on these or other low cost amps being a good fit for my system? Any recommendations on amp interconnects for the external amp under $100 each? Thanks, Richard |
I am contemplating getting an older vintage Adcom 545 or 555 I or II for my Thiel CS 2 2's. I also am considering a new Emotiva Basx 2 or 3 for this task. New amp wil be connected to Denon AVR X4200 W to drive mains (Thiels). The price is similar for all. Would prefer a serviced Adcom due to older parts needing replacement. Is a 545 ok or do I need the extra power of a 555? I don't play system super loud. Not sure if Emotiva Basx is up to the task of the Thiels and the GEN 3 are more than I want to spend. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank You.
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audio1326 - I’ll chew a slice of your query. I investigated your question for affordable amps for the CS2.2 and landed on Adcom, and specifically the GFA555. In that process I sorted out some considerations, summarized here. The GFA555 was designed by (the legandary one and only) Nelson Pass, as were the 535 and 545. Simple, low parts count, high current circuits which depend on high-quality parts. First generation boards were built in Japan with ’best’ available parts. Later runs moved to Taiwan with lower quality parts. I don’t know the serial numbers. There is even better Japanese transistor sets and components available now. (See Audio Upgrades below.) The geriatric capacitor problem is a real but manageable problem. A competent electronics shop can measure performance of the caps. If they’re good, they’re good. I bought a GFA555 and a GFA555 mkII which is generally considered ’more refined’. My journey landed on the original (Nelson Pass) GFA555 being superior and upgradable (by reason of its intrinsic superiority). I would consider the added cost of a 555 over the 545 or 535 to be a no-brainer. Transients require power and more is better if circuit finesse is not sacrificed. The 555 gives up nothing and gets more power. The winning aspect is that Jim Williams of Audio Upgrades in Carlsbad CA upgrades this amp to two performance levels. The upper level adds world-class metal film resistors to the basic job. Cost is in the $hundreds, not $thousands. Very highly recommended. Furthermore, Bill Thalmann of Music Technology is reviewing my Jim Williams GFA555 upgrade to recommend and test further audiophile enhancements. I intend to recommend this amp with upgrades (wherever the particulars fall) to Thiel Renaissance clients as a high value, high performance amplification solution. I will not comment on other contenders, having no personal experience - with the exception that Prima Luna is an outstanding performer for its price. (As long as you enjoy tube rolling.) |
JA - I'm having a blast. I'm newly in a suitable space that was built in the 19th century as a dowel-making workshop. Good proportions and bones. Focus is on finalizing the (myriad) wire trials using (this round) the SCS4 with outboard crossover. I am again surprised how much improvement is made via simply moving the XO outboard free from microphonics and away from the driver EMF zone. There is notably less difference between wires when EMF is reduced. The wires act as antennae and quieter is decidedly better. This weekend a young, female subject from a musical family, but first exposure to Thiel, listened to an Adam Cohen recording (Boats, from We Go Home). We listened through A: stock SCS4 and then B: outboard XO with original XO including wire). B brought some tears and comments about surprising involvement & connection. More wire comparisons on today's docket.
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