Thiel Owners

andy2,

In my personal experience, my emotional engagement with a speaker is not based on whether it's first order or not.   I have several speakers using high order topologies that I find very emotionally engaging.  (In fact, I was partially driven back in to high end audio by how smitten I was with my old pair of Thiel 02s, which are not time/phase coherent).

I was listening to my Waveform Mach MC monitors over the last week.  Waveform, when in business, made a pretty explicit rejection of the case for time/phase coherence claiming even frequency response/even power/dispersion and other characteristics were more important for accuracy and believability.   Just as I find the Thiels make a good case for the Thiel approach, I find the Waveforms make a good case for that approach.  The Waveforms sound to my ears warm, open, extremely natural in instrumental timbre, and particularly uncolored and "alive" sounding.   I almost bought a pair of the larger Mach Solos that were for sale recently and I'm kicking myself that I didn't as they are super rare and gone now.  (I would not sell my Thiels to buy them, though).

I would go back and forth between the Waveform and the Thiels.  The Waveforms are imaging monsters, and the Thiels are great too.  In some ways I found the Waveforms a bit more neutral than my 2.7s, and a bit more revealing of exact differences between instruments, and more revealing of dynamics to a degree.  So they really communicated a "live" sense of musicians playing instruments, with amazing imaging.

On the other hand:  The Thiel 2.7s - certainly having an advantage of being more full range and not just monitors like the Mach Mcs - had that special Thiel thing of organizing the sound even more precisely so instruments and voices have a depth, dimension, solidity and body that the Waveforms did not have.  There were more subtle advantages the Thiels gave in the richness - so a flute would have more body and airy texture vs a clarinet, where on the Waveforms both those instruments had a more similar "hardened" quality.

But my point is, I found that the two design philosophies were fairly neck-in-neck in terms of pleasing and impressive results.  Which is why I love having different speakers.

For me the Magico A3 were very impressive on a number of audiophile score-card characteristics, but they ultimately failed to really engage me.

I was wondering if this has to do with Thiel usage of first order design.  I mean if you're already bought in Thiel first order philosophy, any other speakers with higher order filters will fail you in term of "emotional engagement".  

Personally I already made my own conclusion based on my own designs that first order results in the most musical reproduction of music, so I am sort of in the same camp as well.

pwhinson

When I was seeking a possible replacement for my Thiel 3.7s (only due to the size/depth of the 3.7s causing me a little ergonomic problem in my room) I auditioned the Magico A3 at length.   I wrote about my impressions in another thread, but in a nutshell I found them highly transparent and detailed, not bright but a tad bit fatiquing over time.  I found the bass to be not as precise and controlled as the Thiels, and even though powered by a decent solid state amp, I found them dynamically a bit limp compared to my Thiels.  I also preferred the timbral quality of voices and instruments through the  Thiels.

For me the Magico A3 were very impressive on a number of audiophile score-card characteristics, but they ultimately failed to really engage me.

I have very limited experience with any other Magicos. I heard larger Magicos for a couple of test tracks a while back and they were very impressive, but didn't have time to gauge the "emotional involvement" factor - they were way beyond my price bracket in any case.

@thosb they did not have the PS Audio speaker prototypes and I definitely asked. It sounds like they are keeping those a secret until Axpona. I did get to see the Arnie Nudell prototype speakers(I think they were prototype speakers) that they were using as their reference speakers when designing the PS Audio speakers. 

@pwhinson Thank you for that generous offer. It just further illustrates my point about how wonderful this community is.

I would absolutely like to take you up on your offer! However, one thing I did not mention in my previous post is that my wife is extremely pregnant with our third child and she is about 2 weeks away from her due date. My audio journey is on hold for the next 12-14 weeks or so. I will shoot you a message when I start my travels back up again. Thank you!

Easy.  I use the cable provided by REL and run it to the speaker connections on the back of the amp.  REL sounds much better this way, and is their preferred hookup,  over going to the low level inputs. If you have a PS amp,  you will need an extra connector to prevent hum when the amp goes into standby.   Todd it is money well spent as my friend Bob just wrote me and thanked me for talking him into pairing a REL with his 3.7's

@ronkent,
How do you handle the crossovers with the REL/3.7 combo?  I own the 3.7 and have been thinking of the same thing.
Todd

I will add my two cents here:  A good friend and I both own 3.7's, and found they improved a lot with the addition of a good sub (we both got REL S/5 SHO).  the comment above "The one thing the Thiel’s do wrong is I believe they compress and distort a tiny bit on full scale orchestral recordings at high volumes" is something i too experienced with 2.4's, 2.7's. and even 3.7's. However the addition of a great sub should really change that. A properly set up sub does more than just add deep bass notes,  it really fills out a system and allows the full power of the orchestra to come through.  If i had the space and the $$$   I would have two but not now.

pwhinson
Thank You for the update. I am hoping the Paradigm Persona 9H fares well in your system too. I can tell you that something along upper Magico, Vandersteen or Von Schweikert lines will better a Thiel. Keep us posted on your Audio journey.

Happy Listening!

beetlemania
Me as well. The DX-5 was in stock (non DSD upgrade) form. The extra musical details were amazing. Speakers- Monitor Audio PL 100 II ( 2-way monitor on stands. $5795).  I am sure hoping that the SACD playback is a minor fix, minor issue. I will reach out to Ayre for a consultation. If only Charles (RIP) were still here.  Happy Listening!

Continuing saga on whether to replace my aging but spectacular Thiel 2.4's with something else:  Magicos?  Vandersteen? Von Scweikert?  I dunno, but this decision is going to be made very methodically and carefully.  So one of the more serious audio salons in town received a pair of Magico A3’s last Friday and I went to hear them today. Unfortunately they were in a small crowded room, placed about one foot from the rear wall and directly beside them were a pair of Focals. Tiny room. No way to properly audition these speakers and certainly no way to get any idea of how they image. Driven with good amplification they sounded good but I’ll second one other poster that they sounded slightly dark and I felt there was a relative bit too much lower midrange/upper bass for my taste and in this little room they sounded boomy at times. When the guys learned that I was entertaining speakers that cost several times the price of the A3s they seemed to push the A3s aside. If what I heard was representative of what the A3s can do (I don’t think it is)...they are not the speakers for me. I did think the timbre of instruments was very true to the sound of the real thing. It did whet my appetite for the S3 and the S5, neither of which they had on hand for demo unfortunately. I DID hear a pair of Von Schweikert E5’s which were frankly fairly breathtaking with regard to some of the things those speakers did (driven by a Constellation integrated). I still think I "might" like the Magico’s better...I get the impression (I may be wrong) that some people might find the Magico’s a little clinical but I like that relative high level of detail and texture...its why I like the Thiels. At this point this is really just one old guy’s attempt to my "last speaker." The one thing the Thiel’s do wrong is I believe they compress and distort a tiny bit on full scale orchestral recordings at high volumes. I’m a little curious what the Paradigm Persona 9H’s will sound like on good amplification (I’ve heard them several times now but both times on McIntosh integrated amps...not exactly the kind of amplification you’re likely to use on speakers of that caliber, although I’m hoping they sound fantastic on my Pass/Aesthetix gear. I think I’m probably bound to start going to some of the shows before any final decisions are made. The shop I visited today does have a pair of S3’s on order but my guess is that the S5’s are more likely to be the speaker for me but the proof is in the pudding. No indication when (if ever) they’ll be getting another pair of S5’s in. They do seem think that Von Schweikert and VAC are the two product lines they seem to want to really sell the hell out of at the higher end of the market.  

I’ve not heard a DX-5 but am surprised you preferred it to the newer QX-5. Remind me what speakers are in that system? AX-5 has plenty of headroom for my CS2.4s.

beetlemania
Today I had a second audition with AYRE featuring the DX-5 universal player matched to the AX-5 Twenty integrated amp. Only the DX-5 and QX-5 Twenty were changed out- all other gear and cabling remained the same as my first audition. CD and SACD were evaluated as I do not have prior experience with this company's disc spinners.
As always, I begin my session with my long time reference CD Jamie Cullum "Twentysomething". I also end my session with this CD. Comparing selections against the QX-5 Twenty, the DX-5, provided even greater micro detail, subtle and sublime. I have owned this disc since 2004, listened to it hundreds of times (at least) yet there were nuances never heard previously.  Next were my Rock preferences for evaluating systems- Pearl Jam "Ten". Favorite track for such conditions, Oceans.
Listen for the dynamic timpani strikes (clean, clear, musical, sharp contrast). Nirvana "Unplugged- Live in New York" Favorite track, All Apologies. The DX-5 need not apologize for anything here. The cello is perfect and sublime in presentation. I felt a strong sense of Dave Grohl holding back his hard hitting drummer skills for a more delicate approach via Hot Rod Stix in hand. Tracy Chapman "S/T" favorite track, Fast Car.
The beauty of an acoustic guitar was enjoyed without any distortion. The Bass pluck at the end of this song, sublime, not boomy. Natalie Merchant "Tigerlily" favorite track, Carnival. All songs on her debut album are well crafted and recorded. Excellent instrumental separation yet delicate voice and percussion undertones heard. The ending was perfectly clear and cross talk discernable without congestion.
Onto SACD- Alan and myself experienced a hiccup here. He does not own any SACD discs so today was the first time the player had a disc in play. I was able to enjoy (1) disc, Journey greatest hits single-layer (not a hybrid). Kind of Blue single layer, The Police single layer (entire catalog) and Twentysomething would not engage?  The player scrolled the word, unknown, followed by stop in the led display. I did enjoy the Journey disc from start to finish without any glitches. I have always enjoyed the sharp contrast in playing styles from Anysley Dunbar and Steve Smith on songs "Don't stop Believin'" , "Wheel in the Sky". The drums and percussion were very well recorded on these tracks the PRaT is perfect. It is easy to pick up on Smith's jazz drumming undertones built into a Rock structured song.  I must agreed with Beetle regarding the AX-5 Twenty, musical, is the correct descriptor. Extremely musical is a better descriptor. 
This duo is neutral with a touch of warmth. Cold, forward, hot, laid back,
was not appreciated with the DX-5. More to follow on the SACD playback issue.  Happy Listening!

jacksky
Thank You for citing your serial numbers (S/N).  Good to read that your experimenting with speaker placement is going well. Keep dialing in those CS5i loudspeakers. 

Happy Listening!

Tomthiel;
i little more about my CS5’s: serial numbers 183/184 probably make them fairly early production.
previous owner informed they were sent to a Maryland authorized Thiel tech for upgrades, namely woofers and internal wiring for what he termed “converting them to the CS5i option”.  There is no exterior evidence and no paperwork to back this up.
When I had them at 8’ apart, 2’ from front wall pointed straight there was no cohesion/distinguishing sources to the imaging
Toeing them in focused the image but only to the extent that I seemingly got 3 very point sources of  sound.  For the left/right, I would say it was the opposite of speakers disappearing .
moving them 4’ out from front wall 8’ apart with toe in changed the center image and gave it depth but the left/right were still very point sourced.
tonight I bridge the amps and try a wider stance with more toe in.
i am going to be at this for a while...till I get it right.
positive side effect is the muscles are getting a workout, these are REALLY that heavy!

hi guys,  it was great having bighemp here and really introducing him to what a properly set up home system can do.  thanks Jafant for your kind words.   so much of the thread has been about the updates that TT and others are working on,  and truthfully a lot of it was over my head and i also know that the .7 speakers will not be seeing any mods anytime soon.  I am so blessed to have been able to get the 3.7's from Rob last April and they have continued to improve.  Of course in my opinion,  a big part of the improved sound is the addition of the P15 and then P20 power plants.  gosh those are indispensable to a good system.   Thosb asked about what i will do when the new PS speakers come out.  They are probably the only things that would make me give up my 3.7's,  but i hating changing speakers versus amps, preamps, etc.  my whole system is dialed in for Thiel and has been for 35 years.  The only reason i would consider the new PS speakers is that they will be matched with my all PS system.

Jafant asked about  cd recommendations (I do not stream at home or play vinyl as cds are so great through the now sadly out of production PS player).  i would suggest Raising Sand by Robert Plant and Allison Krause.   Have had it for years and when i played it last week i was knocked over.   it was like it had been remastered the sound was so much better.  same for Old Kit Bag by Richard Thompson.  a killer album for sure.  the truth is that with the improvements i have made over the last year or so (MG Audio speaker cable among others) that many  cds that used to be good sounding now sound great.  what a wonderful hobby.  may we all live long and prosper and enjoy our wonderful audio systems.

bighempin2 - forgot to ask, did PS Audio have their speaker prototypes in the listening room when you were there, as Paul mentioned in one of his videos?  I was out there in October and no such luck but they had just moved.

ronkent - welcome back!  Very curious about what you will do when Paul releases his speakers.  If you move on, can you put me on your short list for the 3.7s?  How does one obtain a pair of these anyway, outside of watching all the normal sites?  Not in the market now, but someday....

jacksky and bighempin2 - welcome, you probably know this, but you have found a gem of a thread.  bighempin2 I am impressed you are jumping in with both feet!

All - I rarely see MCS1s for sale, and came across one at Audio Solutions in Indy, for $700, catch is both woofers don't work, nor does the midrange, and they are unsure (!?!) about the tweeter, so lots more $$$ to rebuild this thing.  Question is, are these so rare that it could be worth it for the person determined to put together a five channel Thiel system?

ronkent

Great to see you in this New Year. I have missed your comments and contributions. Good to read that you are still enjoying the PS Audio/Thiel Audio combination. Those BHK amps are really catching on to Audiophiles across various forums. Agreed, PS Audio Power Plants are highly regarded in the 2-channel and home theater arenas.
As your schedule allows, post some of your fave albums or musical passages/selections, that demonstrate your system's sonic capabilities.


Happy Listening!

hi Bighempin,   it was great seeing you and i am so glad you enjoyed your visit.   I am honored and pleased that my system sounded so good to you.   I  am such a huge fan of the PS gear and think the BHK amps are fantastic with Thiel speakers (at least with the 2.7and 3.7 as i have not tried others with the PS amp).  However i think that most people who have not experienced what one of the PS power plants can do are missing out on getting the best from their systems.   I have owned numerous iterations of them and the P15 and P20 will transform your system for sure.  Even the older and smaller models are great and are critical for a system to perform at its best.  I sure hope you can get the speakers you want especially the 3.7's as they are like mini IRS speakers.

Some Bryston’s are compatible with some Thiel’s.

jacksky

Thank You for citing your system- especially the cables! 
Keep us posted as you massage those Thiel speakers into your room/system.  Bryston is a sonic match.

Happy Listening!

Andy -  the circuits control the drivers for a net 6dB / octave slope all the way down, including the interaction with the top end of the port where another pole is added to the top end of the woofer xo. Various conjugate circuits are applied to counteract bare driver anomalies. Since the usable driver range extends more than 3 octaves beyond the crosspoint, drastic measures can be called for.

As I said, I doubt that Jim would have tried to cross that midrange with that woofer, requring so much attenuation. He would have developed a smaller midrange with a higher natural bass roll out, to better match the 8" woofer with less brute force required.

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the info.  I was actually very surprised to find that large a value for the cap at 400uF+.  Is it because the intrinsic impedance of the driver is somewhat low?  Or is more has to do with the time-phase aligned nature of the xover?

Thanks.

Your 7b have plenty of current at normal listening levels. In parallel, they can handle 1- 3 ohm speakers effectively. In my testing, I never could tell the advantage of the parallel setting, as my SPL is modest, rarely exceeding 80 DB.

Andy - same coax but higher crosspoint to the 8" 2.7 woofer requiring 416uF series blocks. 400uF electro + 15 PP + 1uF styrene / tin foil. The lower 3.7 crosspoint needs 226uF as 3x75uF PPs plus the 1uF S/T. ( no Es in the 3.7 signal path.)

As I've mentioned before, Jim wasn't alive to apply his typical methodology, which would have been using the coax he was developing for the 7.3 to feed the 2.5 just as the 2.4 had been fed by the 7.2 and the 2.3 and CS7 were co-developed.
That jujitsu of dropping the 3.7 coax into an 8"model 2 and calling it the 2.7 is not Jim Thiel methodology, but rather a way to use an extant driver in a fall-down product, creating a model 2 more similar to the 3 in performance and cost.

You are right, big film caps are expensive. Note that the 2.4 upgrade requires only 42uF series feed caps.

The 2.7 has a huge electrolytic cap bank to roll off the bottom of the midrange where the 8" woofer wants to cross in.

Hi Tom,

Out of curiosity, since the 3.7 and 2.7 share the same midrange/tweeter driver, wouldn't the 3.7 should also has a large capacitor bank as well?  My guess is the need for a large cap bank because the xover freq. is rather low - probably aroud 200 - 300Hz to the bass driver on both speakers.

In a typical speaker if crossing over at 200Hz is required, the amount of cap is probably around 80uF to 100uF depending on various parameters.
I could see the use of electrolytic since using poly cap could be expensive if 100uF is needed.

Jack, my first thought was what Beetle suggested, but turning the room around is a very big deal, and listening from the dining room is probably a goal . . . 5' is a lot, and somewhat more than necessary, but more is better to separate the direct from reflected wavefront. But 2' is not enough. The auditory brain tries to integrate sources separated by less than a few milliseconds. We are testing.

Your equipment is great and as you say, should not be the problem. However, bridged amps are less comfortable driving low impedance loads. The 7b has huge power, so matching impedance is probably more critical than power. I don't know the circuit of that amp to make a recommendation. Experiment and let us know.

I do know that my first approach to upgrading the CS5 would be to separate the bass drivers (3x 8" on 2 bass circuits) from the uppers with 4 identical amp channels running the pair of speakers. At the 400 Hz lower midrange crossing, the impedance is 4 ohms and rising slowly, which presents a sweet resistive load for the upper amp. The bass current draw would be sequestered in its own channel.

Your problem is the core problem that limited the life and acceptance of the CS5. Both at the time and more so in hindsight, I believe a 4 channel setup for the CS5 might have made it a success.

Tomthiel,
thanks for your advice.
I am using Bryston 7b monoblocks.
i don’t think power is the problem but I will change the Parallel/series mode setting so they double down in the 2ohm loads.  will let you know if that changes anything. Then I’ll pull them out when my wife is not home just to hear what happens. You are asking for a lot - 5ft!! 
Jafant,
rest of my system is OPPO 105d, Technics SL-1600MKII with Shure V15 cartridge, Bryston BP20 preamp, Monster HTS3600 power center, Grover Huffman Empress silver speaker cables and Siltech connects.  Most of my listening is streaming through Tidal.

i will say this: I am pleased the speakers sound great even at low volume. That was one of the glaring shortcomings in my previous speakers, Egglestonworks Andra.

@bighempin:  If you are ever in Atlanta you are more than welcome to listen to my 2.4's on my Pass Labs (power amp) / Aesthetix Calypso/Janus preamp system.  Amplification is tremendously important especially with the Thiels which are a bit finicky.  I also like the PS Audio gear (I have their Directstream as my dac).  Let me know if you're in town and interested and we'll set it up.

See what happens when you pull them out to 5' behind them.

Yeah, I was thinking it would be interesting to have that dining room as the front wall.

jacksky

Welcome! the party here never ends.  Good to read that we have another CS5i owner. Tom offers excellent advice on this speaker's proper placement. What other gear including cabling is in your system?
I look forward in reading more about you and your Audio journey.

Happy Listening!

bighempin
Welcome! it is good to see you here. I know that you have been reading this thread and will continue to enjoy the plethora, wealth, of information therein. The Panel is here to assist and help you along on your Audio journey. From my end, it is a pleasure to find a budding Audiophile that is interested in our wonderful hobby. You have covered much ground in a very short period of time. Traveling to the various dealers/retailers is key to discovering the brands of gear that peaks interest.  Thank You for jumping in as a contributor.  I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes as we build your next system.

Happy Listening!

Jack - I'll jump right in since I have set up many rooms with CS5s. I suspect the root of your problem is having them too close to the wall behind them. The 5 goes down below 20Hz as a point source, so you are getting lots of back-bounce reflection for your aural brain to try to conflate into the direct wave-front. See what happens when you pull them out to 5' behind them.
Also, you probably know that they present a potentially challenging sub 2-ohm load at their lowest reach. If your amp is running out of current, that wreaks havoc on imaging.

Hang in there, when you get them right, they can be marvelous.
The folks here have good ideas on amplification and placement.

Is it too late to join this party?
2+ years and 100 plus pages of forum discussion proved too much catch up reading, so hope you all don’t mind me jumping in at the risk of repeating what may have been covered.
i just got a pair of CS5i  and am going through the process of getting to know them. It’s early on (3-4 days) so I will hold off on giving any comments. 
I will say that I have not found the right position for them to get focused imaging. My room is 14’ wide. The  length is 19’ but really doesn’t come in to play because the back wall is almost completely open to a dining room.  I have had success getting other speakers placed to focus fairly sharply in this room.  this pair placed 8’ apart 2’ off the front wall as a starting point with 4 moves so far have me lost.  Usually as I make changes I can tell whether I am going in the right direction and adjust as I go. Not here.
i’ll be Happy to list system components if anyone is interested.
Cheers.

Greetings Thiel Owners!


I am a hopeful future Thiel owner and I have been lurking on this thread since early November.  I felt it was finally time to introduce myself and tell you all a little bit about my speaker/Thiel journey to date.


Before I explain anymore about myself or my journey, I was hoping to do a quick review. Not a speaker review but a review of this thread and this community.


This thread, Jafant and the people contributing to it are something special. I have never been accepted as a beginner into a community of enthusiasts, as easily and quickly, as I have been into this community of Thiel owners. I had the extreme good fortune of meeting JA at the start of my audio journey and I must say he is every bit as friendly, passionate, knowledgable and generous with his experience in real life as he is in this forum. JA lives down the road from me and he has been communicating with me since early November. He is always giving me time on the phone, or on email, or even going out to lunch with me, to discuss anything from our dream systems, how to audition gear, what music to listen to, work, health, travel, anything. He even gifted me a great reference disc(Jamie Cullum's TwentySomething) to take on my travels to audio shops. I reached out to an internet stranger and got an instant friend and I am very grateful to him for his kindness and for sharing his passion and experience with me and all of us by creating this thread.


JA is not the only one. This entire thread is driven by all of you and your experience and passion and the respectful banter and exchange of ideas between you. For a newb like me, your passion and experience fuels and inspires me to find my own sound and system. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to the conversation here, you have all taught me something.


Thank you to Prof who has been a great source of information, thank you for sharing your time and experience with me. I appreciate your help.


And a very big thank you to RonKent for his amazing generosity and hospitality. After a few email exchanges with ronkent, I invited myself to his house, to listen to his system. Not only did I invite myself but I gave him very short notice. He took me into his home and not only let me listen to his system but fed me an excellent home cooked meal, prepared by his girlfriend, and then let me stay after dinner to continue listening. Let me say that again, he let a complete stranger sit in his house and listen to his system until 8:30pm and fed him(me) dinner. If you make it to the end of this wall of text, or if you want to skip to the bottom, I will save my thoughts on his system for last. Ronkent is an awesome guy with an amazing system and I sincerely appreciate him welcoming me into his home for a listen.


Now for a little about me. I am 38 and my current setup is an audio technica turntable with a wifi transmitter and a bose soundlink bluetooth speaker. I have always had an interest in getting a real stereo setup centered around a beautiful tube amp and turntable. I was recently diagnosed with pretty significant heart disease and my doctor told me I need more music. That was all the excuse and motivation I needed to get my first real setup. I live in Alabama and my options here are limited so I turned to the internet and that's where I met Jafant. JA pointed me in the direction of this thread and several dealers in the south east. I had a work trip up to Raleigh and JA helped me setup some demos up there. I was so excited to hear my first hifi setup but a few days before that trip I went into Atrial Fibrillation and spent a few days in the ICU and my trip was canceled. Since then I have recovered and continue to pursue my first setup. Since my trip to the ICU I have had some really great opportunities to listen to some amazing gear and I was hoping to share my experiences with you guys. I know this is a long post and appreciate anyone making it this far. I feel this context was and is important to understanding my experience level, which is none, and what some of my motivations are for jumping into this hobby.


So far I have had 5 different demo sessions at 5 different places and listened to a lot of amazing gear in a short period of time. I have listened to the Dynaudio Excite 38 and Contour 60. I got to tour PS Audio and visit their listening room with their Infinity IRS V. I went to Soundings in Denver and listened to Vienna Acoustics Concert Grand, Chario Academy Sovran, Rockport Technologies Atria, and Rockport Technologies Cygnus. I also went to ListenUp in Boulder and listened to Sonus Faber Sonetto VIII, Sonus Faber Sarafino, Focal Kanta, Focal Maestro Utopia, Magnepan 1.7i, B&W 804 D3, and B&W 802 D3. Lastly, I got to listen to ronkent's Thiel CS3.7 paired with his PS Audio gear.


I had initially intended to give my first impressions on all of these speakers but this post has gotten rather long. Also, I don't want to derail the Thiel discussion with first impressions from a newb on other non Thiel speakers. I would however like to give my first impressions as a newb on 2 of the systems I got to hear, the IRSV at PS Audio and ronkents CS3.7s. If anyone is interested in my impressions on anything else I heard, or more in depth details about the gear I heard them on, Im happy to share those details as well.


As far as my experience in the PS Audio listening room, it was eye opening. The listening room features Infinity IRS V speakers powered by PS Audio BHK 300 monoblocks. I am assuming their listening room would blow away even the most seasoned audiophile, but for someone who has never listened to a true high end hifi setup, it was a "wow' moment. I did not know that a two channel setup could make a sound like that. I don't really have the vocabulary to describe it yet but I explained it to a friend as "black magic". The music came on but it did not come from the speakers. It came from behind the speakers or really from everywhere but the speakers. Those IRS Vs absolutely disappeared. Scott played the first song and he picked James Taylor Gaia. It sounded like a full sized James Taylor was in front of me singing and he was there, just 10 feet behind the speakers. Then a choir started singing and they were another 10 feet behind him and the separation of the other instruments and band members was so obvious and amazing. And beyond the separation and imaging, I found the overall sound to be amazing and clean. The voices sounded amazingly real which I really like. But this experience taught me about imaging and I am hooked.


I tried to explain it to my brother who is a skeptic in general but also has no experience and limited interest in hifi. The best way I could explain it to him was that it was like if you had seen black and white your entire life and then you saw color for the first time. I used the same analogy with JA Fant but took it a bit further. I have read so many adjectives and descriptors of sound quality that are hard to understand or comment on, until you have actually heard them. I told JA that it is hard to describe the color green but it is even harder to describe it if you have never seen it and now that I have seen color, so to speak, it makes it a little easier to understand and discuss.


I was worried about having the Infinity IRS V be the first listening experience for me in Colorado as I was scared it would set my expectations too high but in retrospect I think it was actually the perfect place to start as it set the bar for the rest of the gear I listened to thereafter. Everytime I listen to something now it is always in comparison to my memory of those IRS V. Nothing I listened to came close to the performance of those IRS V(except maybe the Focal Maestro Utopia at $75K) that is until I got to listen to RonKents system.


RonKent has gone into his system, setup, and listening room in great detail already in this thread so I won't rehash all of that. If you are not familiar with Ronkent's setup he has the Thiel CS3.7 powered by the PS Audio BHK 250 and all PS Audio gear and cables and he has everything dialed in perfectly. It is impossible for me to do justice to his system with my limited vocabulary but to say my jaw dropped is an understatement. We started off listening to Gaia by James Taylor, just like in Boulder with PS Audio. Of all the speakers and systems I listened to, this was the closest to replicating the sound I heard at PS Audio. The only other system that sounded that good or better was the Focal Maestro Utopia paired with Marc Levinson gear and the speakers alone were $75K. I remember grinning so hard and so much at Ronkents house that my cheeks hurt. Those big CS3.7's absolutely disappeared and it was that same black magic effect I felt in Boulder at PS Audio. The sound literally came from everywhere. He has some acoustic treatment panels in his room and I told him I wouldn't be surprised if people who didn't know better thought the sound was coming from those, and he said that has happened before. We listened to a song off of Deep Purple "FireBall" and there was this effect where the sound crashed in like a wave from the left side of the soundstage to the right and then rolled back again, it was an awesome!


Ronkent asked me for an honest first impression comparison between his system and the one PS Audio has and this is the honest feedback I gave him. First impression was that the soundstage on the IRS V felt taller to me, which to me makes sense, since those speakers are so much bigger. Also, the sound stage on the IRS V sounded like it had more depth to me. For example in Gaia, when I heard the choir singing 10-15 feet behind James Taylor in Boulder, they didn't feel quite as far away in ronkents system but there was definitely separation there. That being said, I was absolutely blown away by ronkents setup. I have read so much about the Thiels that I was scared I had set myself up for disappointment but when I heard them they were better than I expected. I told ronkent I thought it sounded "rich" but in a good way, he agreed and used the word "full" which was exactly what I was trying to describe. Voices sounded very good to me on the Thiels which I really like as I have been described as someone who like "big voices". Getting to listen to and experience ronkents setup was a great experience that proved to me, what I had been suspecting all along, which is that I want to be a Thiel owner too!


So the day after meeting ronkent and listening to his system, I met up with a guy who has a pair of Morado CS3.7. He mentioned he might be interested in selling them and he was upfront about the fact that he was on the fence. I took him a certified check with my best offer on it and he thought the offer was the right price but he needs more time to think about it, so I sadly drove 550 miles back home empty handed. I am hoping he comes around and decides to sell them but I'm not sure if he will or not. He assured me if he sells them, they are mine. In the meantime I am actively on the lookout for some CS2.7 or CS3.7 with a very strong preference for the CS3.7, so if any of you decide to sell, please consider me, as I would give them a very good home and they would be very well appreciated and cared for here.


This has been an epically long post, thank you to anyone who actually made it to the end and thanks again to this community and JA for all the help and support.

So, thank you for your participation and thank you all for your interest, which has helped me take on this rather complex and challenging project.

You’re welcome and thank *you* for your coaching and encouragement. It’s been fun, even if I had a moment or two of doubt. 

I saved for over two years to buy my Ayre amp. But then it became obvious that my speakers were the weak link. Not wanting to wait as I saved again, I bought the SEs which I figured would be a nice step up for relatively small investment. They were,  but I knew even more was possible. With the SQ I’m now hearing I think I would need to spend at least $15-20K to find something better. I suspect these are my last speakers :)

Beetle - thank you for consolidating your experience for us. It all sounds quite straight-forward as written, but considerable study and thought went into this trial and, as you know, considerable time elapsed while researching and considering this first trial build. This build is fairly high-end; although more money can always be spent for greater but diminishing returns. The upgrade parts cost alone is somewhere in the $1K range. (We haven't actually counted beans.) I want to commend and thank you for your enthusiasm, patience and careful listening tests with detailed notes and summaries, along with your good-natured willingness to try new solutions when something failed. (For the record, we are experimenting with heat management and mounting the resistors on aluminum heat rails created a subtle sonic anomaly.)

Among the points made above, I wish to comment on one in particular. At the end of the second-last paragraph, you address the "flaws in the recording" issue. This issue has been a constant companion during the entire lifespan of the company. Nearly every reviewer picks it out as a problem, often called out as a shortcoming of the speaker. Indeed there are very many very good speakers which do not exhibit this trait. At the very beginning, when co-developing the 03 as a phase coherent point source vs "normal" topology, we sweated blood over whether to take this plunge, knowing it would remain the core of our struggle forever going forward. We did and it did. Our central reason is philosophical: "the best speaker reproduces its input signal with the greatest fidelity in all its aspects." Phase coherence has been both a burden and a torch that led our way.

This "warts and all" approach is, as you know, not the normal approach, which seeks to present the most involving musical suspension of disbelief with the broadest range of recordings to the largest body of listeners. Everyone at Thiel learned to live with the "bare, naked facts" dilemmas, as did many critics, dealers and users around the world. But we still hear today a drum-beat of criticism around how revealing Thiel speakers are.

My central misgiving in this upgrade project is that it seeks to intensify that "music under a lens" approach. Every day I hear technical, mixing and mastering errors or shortcomings on recordings. In fact, in my life after Thiel Audio I have provided evaluation services to recording artists by identifying such flaws in their production mixes and trial masters (and that is with stock CS2.2s.) So the results and report of your upgrade journey gives me encouragement. I believe and you concur that by removing more of the subtle artifacts introduced by the speaker, we are more closely approaching the original musical event, making a firmer connection between the music and the listener. I believe that connection brings joy, even if it reveals some flaws in the music making process. 

So, thank you for your participation and thank you all for your interest, which has helped me take on this rather complex and challenging project.

pwhinson
I concur with your assessment of Atlanta regarding dealers/retailers.
I have watched, for many years, Audio shop after shop closing their doors? The few that are operational do a very good job for us consumers.
You are correct in that only a few speaker brands are represented city-wide. I am looking forward in reading about the in-home demo with Paradigm.

Happy Listening!

pwhinson
Thank You for the follow up. I had a feeling that moving the speakers a margin apart could make a positive difference in presentation and sound within your excellent system.  Thumbs up indeed.

Happy Listening!

beetlemania
Thank You for the update from your end. Outstanding detail in the recent post. I am excited to hear the upgrade path that you have explored and integrated into the SE.  Happy Listening!

BTW this Thursday I’m getting an in-home audition of the Paradigm Persona 9H which another poster in this forum seemed to think gets closer to the "rightness" in terms of timbre and tone that my Thiels give me. Its my first venture outside the Thiel family to try to get to to that "final speaker" for this 61 year old. Of course another audiophile asked me if such a thing actually exists and I can tell you for certain that you WILL have a final speaker of some sort! I’m fortunate enough to be able to at least consider some of the best. I have a short list of other products to hear but I’m going to have to go out of town to hear them. Its sad that today’s high end can only be heard in all its diversity in only our 3 or 4 largest cities. There you can find anything. I’m in a city of 7 million (Atlanta) and the dealers we have are really good but there are only a handful of speaker designers represented. If you want either Vandersteen or Von Schweikert Atlanta has you covered. Others, not so much. While the 9H is expensive you have to remember that even the Vandersteen Quattros are now up to $15K pair.

@jafant:  not sure I ever answered your question about changing the distance between the speakers...yes a huge difference, much better imaging, wider soundstage, more holographic, NO problem with centerfill at all, images come from mid-way between the speakers all the way to just outside the speakers.  Imaging and fine detail including fine detail in quiet portions of the music increased dramatically when I changed over to pass amplification.  Huge thumbs up on that for me.  

jafant

 In addition to your own preamp,  see if you can get them to use a "settled in" Bryston BP17 cubed preamp  with the 4B cubed amplifier.    The 17 preamp made a difference with my 4BSST2. Smoother and cleanly-defined upper midrange and highs, particularly  in the soprano voice and violins. 

Just a thought.

I'm feeling extra lucky to have what I believe are an early pair of 3.7s.  I bought them used in 2012 and the SNs on the boxes were 41 and 42.  Whatever was on the speakers themselves is completely gone.  I just shone a flashlight directly on them and couldn't see anything.  I'm no golden ear but these have cured my desire to upgrade.  The only things they don't do are the deepest bass and crazy loud.  My other system with ATC110s and Velodyne DD18 does that and then some so I want for nothing.  

tomthiel,

I listened to both the 3.7 and 2.7 in my dealer's showroom, using several of my own CDs.  I'd listened to these CDs over several years with my Thiel 3.5s, so I might have developed a certain mind-set as to what I wanted in a new pair of Thiels. 

My "review" CDs were from the classical  genre - - symphonies, concertos, chorales, operas, requiems, instrumental trios and quartets and organ.   I went back four times to listen.   

Yes, the 3.7 had a more extended bass, but I preferred the 2.7s way it handled the upper bass and lower midrange.   So, I settled on the 2.7s with an SS2.2 sub.  Cost/price, or appearance, were not  considerations.

I certainly might be missing something, as I haven't listened to modern jazz, rock, heavy metal or synthesized music, etc. through a high fidelity stereo system.  Just classical music through my two channel rig - - from 78s through 45s, LPs, 1.5 reel-to-reel, to CDs. In the mono years, I built my own speakers, using JBL, Altec-Lansing and Tannoy drivers. 
 
BTW: I got my love of music listening to Enrico Caruso on 78 Victor Red Seals, played on a wind-up Victrola with cactus needles. There's been quite a bit of progress in recording/playback capabilities  since then.

George 






, 

Beetle - I say that I don't yet know enough to make any calls of good or bad news. As time goes by I will compare notes with Rob and others and get more solid footing. I did not mean to imply that Lex was inferior. In fact I hear an overall rightness and musicality in Lex compared with an overall analytic precision in FST. Shades of allure. 

I am learning about specific alloys, materials and methods in the various parts and over time will be able to make educated choices among the extant parts. For example: remember our cap noise test which revealed no noise? Such tests, including listening, will identify re-usable vs non-re-usable parts. As I introduce upgrade parts, my knowledge base will grow. 

Such is the collective institutional knowledge of a company or designer. That knowledge is quite weak in Thiel-land today. But, progress is being made, albeit slowly. Getting started is the hardest part.

Your thoughts on 2.4 upgrade vs all-FST might be of interest to the group.

@tomthiel
I am surprised by your Lex v FST listening results. And this seems to confound the upgrade path I imagined. On the one hand, FST owners will be relieved that their sound is not necessarily diminished by those parts (good news). But on the other, Lex owners may be looking at retaining fewer parts in the upgrade, increasing costs (bad news). Perhaps the Lex coils are the only parts worth salvaging?

Guys - I should add something to the 2.7 vs 3.7 comparison. I have many unknowns in my knowledge equation - piecing together facts of history for better understanding. Beyond yesterday's thoughts, there are some manufacturing matters that may flavor the stew.
As you suspect, I have been comparing and contrasting various components. My workhorse is the PowerPoint 1.2. I know it well, it is simple (6"x2way), its room interaction is simple and predictable with its 45° launch which eliminates floor bounce, and its crossover has very little compensation due to the maturity of its drivers: styrene fillet in the woofer and total Thiel motors in both drivers. I have been auditioning 3 versions so far:
A: Original made in Lex with classic Thiel components = best of form developed over the years and used in higher-model traditional Thiel products.
B: FST1, made in China with a mix of Lex (caps) and FST (coils) parts.C: FST2, made in China will all FST parts and assembly - tested in Lex.Note: the FST components were co-developed with Jim and are intended as clones of Thiel's traditional parts. But later FST coils are known to be physically inferior, and the FST caps have migrated from propylene to polyester via Beetlemania's 2.4 experience and my PowerPoints. I would be most interested in examining XOs of Prof's and Brayeagle's rejected 3.7s. But, alas, such rigor is ethereal.
However, our listening tests are controlled, double blind and results are consistent among listeners. Results may apply to the 2.7 vs 3.7 discussion, since similar manufacturing history applies.
First, there is no clear winner of Lex vs FST. There are differences which stack up as FST being more incisive, cleaner and detailed - leaning toward cool and analytical. Lex possesses more cohesive solidity, naturalness and ease. Listener's preference varied. These results were surprising, but true and withstood swapping drivers and multiple tests. For discussion let's let the results stand and apply them to the 2.7 vs 3.7.
Flash back September 2012 when I heard final 2.7 samples compared to 3.7 at Thiel. Both of those were made with Thiel parts; both were tweaked engineering prototypes, the reference standard of each model. I, along with all others present, heard differences which I summarized previously, which I have been projecting on Prof, Brayeagle and others here. My projection contains flaws. Namely, the 2.7 manufacture never left Lex with traditional parts and the 3.7 gradually went to China much like the PowerPoint described above. So, I surmise that the 2.7s among you are potentially more similar to the 2.7s I heard than the 3.7s among you to the 3.7s I heard. I don't know your 3.7 serial numbers, but I project that the lower the numbers, the more likely they are to perform like the reference prototypes. One of these days I hope to compare an FST 3.7 to the original Lex 3.7 to evaluate differences. Until then, who knows what to believe.

Good morning, gents.