Hello all, returning with an update on my 3.5 mids. I received them back from Tom this week and was able to do an A/B test with the original mids, rebuilt by Rob, and the
Scanspeak 12W/8524G00 speaker, which has been floating around on the web as a suitable replacement for the original Scanspeak mids. The replacements were in my 3.5's when I bought them, I was able to score the mids from a fellow Audiogon contributor and had Rob rebuild them. Anyway, I wasn't expecting much of a difference, if all, simply because I don't consider my ear terribly critical. I replaced on of the mids, put my preamp on mono, and played some ZZ Top (I am originally from Texas, so....) and did a close up comparison as well as sitting position in my listening room. I was surprised at the difference! The original Scanspeak obviously worked better with the crossover, the difference being that the rebuilt original was much clearer and articulate, where the replacement was subdued sounding. So what I thought was an excellent listening experience before the replacement has turned into an exceptional one. I kid you not. So I would say this particular Scanspeak (
Scanspeak 12W/8524G00) is not a good match for the original. I think Rob is recommending another one, and Tom may have something to say soon as well.
Amplifier update, my last post was lamenting on the binding posts on my Yamaha M85 and Denon POA 1500. I replaced the posts on the Denon to 5 way, and sold the Yamaha and bought a Denon POA 2200, which I now need to replace its binding posts as it used the exact same one as the Yamaha. My only comment on replacing the bindings is I was scratching my head on what to use to replace the strip of metal between the old posts and the PCB. Then I remembered I had some romex wire from my basement finish work, so I stripped sections of the solid copper wire and used it. Worked perfectly. |
My 3.5s have already had the mids replaced with Scanspeak 12W/8525G00, probably as close to original as I can get without calling Rob and paying up for NOS pieces. I'm hoping the 250 wpc @ 4 ohms will be sufficient to drive the 3.5s, don't know why it wouldn't at my listening levels. I'll see how the eq works out when I get my Peachtree. Rob could probably rebuild it if it needs it, we will see. Who knows, my Thiels may just be another step in my hifi journey, but right now I'm pretty pleased with them. |
I've enjoyed reading this thread. I jumped into the Thiel world several months ago when a pair of CS 1.2's popped up locally. Up until then I had been trying a variety of vintage speakers including Ohm Walsh 1, Original Large Advents, B&O RL 140, Avid 330, Cerwin Vegas, etc. When I listened to the Thiel's, I was hooked. My plan was to eventually work my way up the Thiel food chain. About 3 weeks ago a pair of 1.5's popped up, so after conferring with Rob Gillum, I figured I would have an incremental improvement over the 1.2's. And there was. So I retired my vintage Dynaco ST 150 amp and bought a new Yamaha A-S701. All was good, was loving the combo, when a pair of 3.5's popped up somewhat locally for a good price. They came with the original boxes and the eq, so I bought them. But my Yamaha doesn't have a pre-out or loop for the eq, so fortunately I was within my 15 day return period and back it went. I ordered a Peachtree Nova 150. It should be here in 2-3 weeks. In the interim, the honking 3.5's are being powered by a vintage Kenwood KA-5700 integrated I had in the basement. Can't wait to feed them some real power and see how they sing. |
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quick follow up on my previous post regarding CS 3.5 midrange replacement drivers. Perusing the Madisound website, they have this https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-midrange/scan-speak-13m-midrange-replacement-speaker/ which is probably closer to the original Scanspeak midrange found on the 3.5s, and it has the custom mounting plate. The 12W/8524G speaker that I have in my 3.5s will fit, but its a 4 screw mount, as opposed to the 3 screw mount with the flange. From Madisound website regarding the 10F/8424G replacement...."
The specifications and response curve of the 10F/8424G is very close to the original and long discontinued Scan-Speak midranges. PBN Audio uses these as replacements for the 13M/8636 in their legacy speakers and speak glowingly of the results." There seems to be a significant difference in the curves for these speakers. I guess the thing that makes the 12W/8524G speaker attractive is a price of @$60 vs $220 for the 10F/8424G. Unfortunately what I don't have is the curve for the original midrange Scanspeak driver. |
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Tom, will do. I'll post the analysis on my website, which I will link to once I complete it. |
Unfortunately a rebuild of 3.5 drivers isn't always an option. Mine came with replacement mids (mentioned above) and the originals are nowhere to be found. So I would like to find a replacement that is close in spec to the original (which mine may be, hence the effort to confirm). Simply waiting for a newer model to surface at a good price seems short-sighted to me as long as a suitable replacement can be sourced. As they say, "it ain't love, but it ain't bad..."
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Oblgny, pm sent. I'm close enough to swing by! |
ok, guess I should just relegate the 3.5s with non-original drivers to my garage. Seriously? I'm looking to find the best replacement drivers (if the Scanspeak pair I have are not the closest). Will I find the exact replacement I need that will bring harmony to the existing crossover? Not likely, but chances are good that I'll find something 'good enough'. And that's good enough for me. How many other factors (room dynamics, amplifier, individual hearing) actually have more of an impact than nuances of a midrange curve compared to another? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm not going to throw the 3.5s out, so why shouldn't I find the closest replacement mid I can? And again, having the originals rebuilt is not an option as the original mids were long gone when I bought these.
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Andy2, I understand that. My point is how close is close enough? Do we know there is absolutely nothing out there that will be close to the original mid, so much so that using the closest aftermarket driver will be obnoxious? I know it won't be exact. But I don't know if a replacement driver will be 1) totally wrong for the speaker, impacting the sound in a harsh or muted way, or 2) close enough that certain nuances are noticeable, but acceptable. That's all I'm saying here. Short of finding an original mid and having it rebuilt, what is the next best option? I currently enjoy my 3.5s with a Scanspeak aftermarket mid, I just want to know how close I can come to the factory mid, that's all (because I am likely missing out on the full capability of the speaker). Chances are good that any direction I go towards the original specs will be an improvement that I'm willing to live with, or without. |
Thanks @tomthiel, I appreciate your words. I do want to keep the 3.5s, and I would hate to see them fall out of favor because of lack of replacement components. I have the curves of the common replacements, and maybe the original (see my post above). I'll publish them on my website at some point. I'm also working with Oblgny to retrieve the components he so graciously offered, and I have an email out to Rob to inquire as to if he can rebuild them (assume he can). Maybe what I could also offer is that once the original mids from Oblgny are rebuilt, I could divert them to either you or whoever could analyze them for a week or two. That might be a start, no? |
Meanwhile, back in 3.5 land....
So I collected the components from the parted out 3.5 from our Long Island friend (thanks again, btw!) and I'm ready to ship the mids to Rob for a rebuild. So my question (TomThiel), would there be any value to redirecting the rebuilt mids (Scanspeak 13M/8351) to you or someone who could map the frequency curve to compare with published frequency curves of the two most popular Scanspeak replacements? The idea is to find the closest (understanding that it won't be a perfect match) to the original for those 3.5 owners that may have received a pair of 3.5s where the original mids have long departed (which was the situation I was in). Also included in my haul were the original crossovers, tweets and woofers. I'm hoping to help out the community a bit here, let me know what I can do. |
Hello all, I've been out for a while but I wanted to give you an update on my 3.5 mids. Rob has completed the rebuild (he says the last he is able to do) and has shipped them off to Tom Thiel for analysis. Hopefully this effort will yield a suitable solution for aging 3.5s. BTW, due to the generosity of a fellow Audiogon'r, I have the woofers, tweeters and crossovers from a parted out 3.5. I'm using the mids to replace the Scanspeak mids that came with my 3.5s. In the spirit of the generosity bestowed upon me, I'm willing to help other 3.5 owners that need a replacement driver (woofer or tweeter) for the cost of shipping only. The crossover is available as well, I might want to see if it would be of any use to Tom T as he analyzes the 3.5 for possible upgrades. |
Dinopau17, you got it. Messaged you... |
Another tidbit of information. As I mentioned, Rob told me this was the last pair of 3.5 mids he can do. Moving forward, here is his response. " From
this point going forward, I will be replacing the CS3.5 mid with the Scan Speak
10F-8424G. Along with a custom adapter plate, and trim ring, it will be
available soon."
He said this Scan Speak has the closest specs to the original Scan Speak |
Greetings all, I thought I would take a moment to reintroduce myself to this thread and share my Thiel journey. I bought my 3.5s about a year ago, my third pair of Thiels, starting with the 1.2 then 1.5. Literally a week after I 'upgraded' to the 1.5's, a pair of 3.5's popped up locally and I had to do it. The original mids had been replaced at some point with Scanspeak mids, but thru this forum I found an original pair (as well as tweets, woofers and crossover's). Rob rebuilt the mids (he told me that was the last pair he could rebuild due to lack of original components), then they were off to Tom Thiel to aid in his quest for finding / confirming a suitable mid replacement for the 3.5s. I'm still rocking the aftermarket Scanspeaks until Tom is finished, and very curious as to any mods he finds for the 3.5s. I'm mostly a vintage guy, by choice and budget. Originally I was powering the 3.5s with a Kenwood KA-9800 integrated, approx. 125 wpc/4 ohms. I knew that wasn't enough power to drive the 3.5s sufficiently, I just told myself that at the volume I listen it didn't matter much. Then I had two vintage amps pop up locally, a Yamaha M85 (@325 wpc/4 ohms) and a Denon POA1500 (@225 wpc/4 ohms). Now I've concluded I should have been flogged with 8 ga. speaker wire for muffling the 3.5s with a relatively low-powered amp. The Denon and Yamaha (especially the Yammy) really opened up the 3.5s at all volume levels. So currently I'm running the Yamaha (or Denon) amplifier, Denon PRA 1000 preamp, Thiel 3.5's with eq, Revel Concerta subwoofer, Bluesound Vault and a Kenwood KD-5100 turntable. I have the Revel dialed in so that you wouldn't know it was there, just makes the 3.5s sound like they drop down below their capabilities. I'm pretty happy with the sound, my room is odd-shaped 22 x 15 with an angled wall that houses my setup, speakers being 7 feet apart, 1 ft off the wall. Really curious to see what the original mids will bring to the party once I get them back. On a side note, really interesting to hear Tom Thiel's involvement with Peavey, I've been building guitars for a few years now, check out my website. http://www.bluetoneguitars.com/ |
oblgny,
mine did come with the eq, I have it plumbed between my preamp and amplifier. The preamp has two sets of pre-out, so I run one pair to eq to amp, the other pair to active subwoofer. I keep the eq button on 40 since I have the sub, I don't know if that matters but the less stress on the woofers the better (??). Honestly I think I could take the eq out of the chain and not hear much of a difference. The Scanspeak mids are 12W/8524G00 models, so once I get my mids back (and didn't they come from you on Long Island?), I'll be able to compare. |
for those interested in my experience with vintage amplifiers, here are some thoughts.
To me, the main limitation my two amps (Yamaha M85 and Denon POA 1500) is the binding posts. They are not 5 way and do not support banana plugs, and wire gauge is limited. With such powerful amps, it seems to me they would benefit from new binding posts that allow use of better speaker cables. I plan on replacing both with suitable 5 ways, both are a bit of a PITA as the original bindings are soldered directly to a PCB, I'll need to jimmy-jam something to get them to work, but I think it will be worth it.
The Yamaha, at 325 wpc/4 ohms, sounds great thru my 3.5's, the Denon sounds good but I can tell a difference in the two amps. The Yammy has LED power meters (bar graph type), the Denon has sexy analog meters and wood side panels, definitely a better looking amplifier. I have both a black face and a silver face for the Denon. I'm using the Denon while I update the Yamaha binding posts, then we will see.
As with any vintage equipment, I'm looking at a restoration at some point, but that's what is nice about having a backup.
I'm using a Bluesound Vault for my digital files, using the built-in DAC of the Bluesound. Its pretty good and don't know if a separate DAC would be worth the investment. Also running a Kenwood KD-5100 turntable that I found a couple of months ago, new in the box, a time capsule from 1981. The Denon preamp has inputs for both MC and MM carts, but you have to physically move the tt rca cables to a different pair of jacks when you go from MM to MC. I want to eventually get another preamp that has a bit more flexibility in cartridge load, or an external phono stage. So that's where I'm at, stick around and who knows what I'll have next month! |
