I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
jafant... My local bricks and mortar buds, Audio Den located in beautiful downtown Lake Grove, NY - a town with neither a lake nor a grove - only recently relocated into a new space a little further away from my home. Their new location is now a five minute drive from my house, whereas the old location was literally a nice little walk. The move was necessitated by their needing a larger space to display/audition home theatre/automation equipment which, by dint of the medium, requires more real estate. (Large flat screens, yadda, yadda, yadda...) To be clear, they haven't altogether abandoned two-channel weirdos like meself. A little while back there was some mention of Ayre equipment in the postings and I was able to listen to an integrated amp through a pair of Maggie 3.7's. Swe-e-e-e-e-t. This was...Octoberish 2019 or thereabouts - while we were imagining the winter to come that never showed up.
Recently, I reconfigured my setup back to a monitors as, once again, financial difficulties have arisen. I am selling my pair of CS2.4's in order to pay some bills and whatnot. (listed here on the site) I'm pretty much giving them away in order to expedite a cash infusion. C'est la vie.
I was recently able to procure a pair of Totem Rainmaker monitors to temporarily substitute for the 2.4's until such time that I will again return to Thiel. This would be my second pair of this model, and I also had two pairs of the Hawk model over the course of time that I've been a member here. (Yeah, yeah, yeah, this site has totally ruined my life.) They ain't Thiel by any stretch of one's imagination, but they are my preferred manufacturer when it comes to monitors and/or medium sized floorstanders.
I am using Transparent bi-wire cables with the Rainmakers which does improve the sonics somewhat over using the jumper setup. These are rather diminutive in size so garden-hose sized cables can be problematic with keeping them stable on the stands. (I know from experience having almost suffered losing my first pair with a Tara Labs garden hose.) Tippy little things with thick cables...
While I await a prospective buyer for the 2.4's I just want to add that I've been toying around with Tidal and Qobuz through the 2.4's. I don't know if its my imagination or what, but the 2.4's clearly preferred Qobuz. I like both services but I lean toward Qobuz for streaming because I was able to hear a difference between it and Tidal on my COMPUTER - an iMac 27" which ain't exactly built for high fidelity anything. That observation remained intact when I played it through my stereo. Qobuz has a more limited inventory of artists, and experiences more frequent bandwidth constrictions than Tidal, but I did detect a preferable difference. I like Tidal as well and I am signed up for the highest rez subscription. I am still on the trial phase with Qoboz. Tidal is $19.99 montly, Qobuz would be $14.99. Decisions, decisions...Apple's Music just plain outright sucks. (And I'm a lifelong Apple freak)
I'm a bit off-topic here, and not for the first time either, but when I compare the online streaming thingies my observation that some have greater or lesser artist inventories ought to taken with a grain of salt. I OWN more music than I could complete listening to before I leave this earthly plain, so the differences between a bazillion artists on one service and a billion on another is pretty much inconsequential, Any streaming service ought to be considered as a complement to everything we already possess, not a replacement. I was able to find a number of releases by Bill Frisell on Tidal that Apple Music did not have, and a few on Qobuz that neither had. It can pay to bounce around a bit. And since decent commercial FM stations are pretty much obsolete, streamers are a good way to discover new stuff.
oblgny As always, good to hear from you, Brother. Thank You for the update and I hope your CS 2.4 speakers find the next good home. Equally good to read that you stay in contact with Audio Den and their expansion. Most of us are not so fortunate to have a dealer/retailer within a five minute drive from home. Yes, the Ayre integrated is incredible and impressive enough to drive Maggies. I know that you enjoy both Maggies and Thiels.Hope that you are well and gearing up for Spring!
oblgny FWIW ... I too find SQ of Qobuz to be marginally better than Tidal. I have nothing against MQA streamed from Tidal, but there is also something nice about being able to stream in Hi Res at native resolution via Qobuz. I too hope your 2.4 speakers find a good home. Someone in your locale is going to be very lucky. You yourself are also fortunate that your local dealer is still alive and kicking ... I'm still very much in mourning that my own local dealer (Audio Consultants in Evanston, IL) recently closed its doors.
A small number of b&m retailers remain throughout NY metro which is fortunate for moi in terms of visiting them, and having pretty much dropped in on all of them at one time or another, a nice little education in a lot of very good stuff. I would guesstimate that I’ve purchased 50% of what I was able to listen to over the years so it’s an equitable arrangement for everyone.
Thanks for sharing your experiences! I will check out those Sound Anchor stands for compatibility. Will try a temporary solution as an experiment first...think I may be chasing improvements that really aren't possible in my listening space.
Arvin - floor coupling is, in my experience, a worthwhile endeavor. During development of the 03 In the late 70s, we discovered a new problem attributable to phase/time coherence, of a bothersome upper midrange jitteriness. A cure was to couple the speakers to the wood floor via 3 pins. That solution became part of the product and rubbed off into the general 3rd party stabilizer feet solution. Piercing carpet via spikes also firmed up the bass. However, coupling directly to concrete sometimes produced an undesirable edginess. In my time at Thiel, we supplied invertible pins where the domed end could be used to concentrate the load, significantly smush the carpet, but not penetrate to the underlying floor. A similar effect could be gotten by placing the spikes into small diameter cups of some kind. In the day I had some cups machined from brass (for shows). The top had a pointed-bottom hole to match the pin, and the bottom was a hemisphere about 1/4" diameter. You can buy online brass hemispheres and drill a dimple to capture the point of the pin.
A personal piece of history: Bose made Thiel cease and desist from using the number 2.2 for our second generation model 2, which we renamed the CS2 2, without the decimal point, garnering more publicity and support than any emerging company could ask for.
TBH I never forgave Bose for that (being the owner of some 2 2’s). Glad it actually worked in your favor, but I could never see how they could claim infringement on a number system. I doubt seriously they could slide today, what with the advent of the internet and software, everything is 2.x and 3.x.
C-Vega “ Strong Like Bull, Smart Like Tractor “
A friend had some C-V’s back in the day. We affectionately called them the Gruntpigs.
Arvin - floor coupling is, in my experience, a worthwhile endeavor. During development of the 03 In the late 70s, we discovered a new problem attributable to phase/time coherence, of a bothersome upper midrange jitteriness. A cure was to couple the speakers to the wood floor via 3 pins.
I’m hoping to get my 2.2’s back to daddy soon, in my new place which I’m frantically readying. In my other setups, I used the cones on pucks when I had suspended hardwood floors, and then the cones directly on carpet so they connected to the sub-floor in an upstairs room. Now, I’ll have them on hardwood over concrete slab, so I figured dig out the pucks again. However I was wondering if anybody has tried anything like the IsoAcoustics Gaia? It seems to me to be the opposite of what you’d want, but an awful lot of people are singing their praises. Thoughts?
Bose has always been active on the litigation front -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose_Corporation I'm not even sure that they were the first with direct reflecting technology in speakers. Many moons ago I worked in Center City Philadelphia. There was an older gentleman who had a small but nice audio shop. He had speakers that had good drivers in them (not cheap ones) and had them near the wall with a piece of plexi-glass reflecting them into the wall. For that type of sound, it was outstanding. There were music celebrities who would visit the store. I believe (to the best of my memory) Bose threatened legal action (and he probably was selling them years before they came out with it) and he just didn't have resources to fight it. Bose is not alone. Many companies with lots of resources flex their muscle. I remember having some brick work done on an old house and the company name was 'Bricks R Us' withe the 'R' backwards and he got a nasty letter from Toys R Us (with the threat of legal action) and on the invoice he went over the backwards R by hand and changed it to a B. Smaller companies, whether it's Thiel or others, are not going to be able to match resources. It's just the way the system works (it's not perfect is necessarily right). I don't like it either and all I can do is not personally buy products from such companies (that's all anyone can do).
Cascade - I can't remember his or his shop's name, but I remember playing the first-tier Thiel speakers for him in his shop in 1977. He was complimentary and said he wished he were younger because a new world was unfolding for the young. He showed me his reflective speakers, which pre-dated Bose by many years. Bose had threatened him (cease and desist) and he responded that he would not sue to invalidate Bose's patent if Bose left him alone. And so it was.
Tom - I worked in Center City Philadelphia from late 1985 through late 1996. There were two hifi shops nearby. One was Nathan Muchnick which was on a main street and the old guy's store (Greenfields???) was on a side street. Been over 23 years. I really enjoyed hearing his speakers. I have multiple systems today (just don't like selling stuff so most often it gets rotated to a back-up systems) and would really have enjoyed having something like that.
Just spent the last few hours listening to Tidal MQA streams of Dexter Gordon, John Coltrane, Kenny Burrell, Thelonius Monk and others...and I didn't listen to the equipment so much anymore, I just listened to the music. And that music was so right...timbre, pace, rhythm, tone, timing, nuance and brilliance...that I suddenly realized I had built something that I am completely satisfied with. That I was more in a place where making any change would worry me that it could be one that detracts or worsens...that here, right now, I was truly happy in this space. A realization that the dream I had when I was 15 years old of one day, owning a real "audiophile" system had finally come true.
Or, it could be just stir craziness creeping in during these crazy times we live in...who knows? But damn...the music is so, so good and it sounds incredible coming out of this thing I put together! Satisfaction indeed...
Arvin - what a delightful lyrical moment to share, when things are 'just right'. Since such moments are so rare, I would appreciate, as might others, knowing the particulars of your rig, your room, and your reflections about how you arrived at this lovely place.
The core of my system remain the Thiel CS 3.5's being fed by two Audio Research D240 MKII solid-state amps (in bridged-mono configuration), with Audio Research tube preamps (LS7 line-stage and PH3 phono). The source I was streaming Tidal from is my Bluesound Vault 2, which has a MQA-capable DAC built-in...most of the files I've been listening to lately are MQA-encoded tracks. As before, my listening area is on the smaller side, probably 14'x10', but thanks to your help, I think I finally was able to nail down my listening height issue...my ears are now about 30"-32" from the floor, depending on how far I lean my chair back.
I came to the feeling of satisfaction from two different vantage points...one practical, the other emotional. On the practical side, I finally got the feeling that, if I could never try another/different/new component in my system, I would be okay with it. That I finally had a system that satisfied me with not only how it sounds and how it performs, but also gave me great joy in owning it, great pride in the time and effort it took to acquire the right pieces and put it all together.
From an emotional standpoint, it was the realization that I was no longer listening to music...I was experiencing it. When one listens to the greats...be it Miles Davis or Dexter Gordon, Van Cliburn or Horowitz, Clapton or Page, Pet Sounds or Sgt. Pepper's...you should feel wonder and amazement, of feelings that go beyond simply listening and to the emotions that these great artists, and others like them, have when they perform. That's what I had...that's what I finally understood...that for me, Hi-Fi meant feeling the music on an emotional scale more than anything else. And, the only way I got there, was because of this beautiful, seemingly perfect combination of metal, wood, wire and current that moved air in such a way that it stirred emotion. I was satisfied, because I had come to understand what this wonderful hobby meant to me.
Could it be better? Sure...I would never delude myself with thinking that it couldn't. But, the more important question I asked myself was, "Did I need it to be better?" And, without hesitation, I am happy with knowing that right now, no...I'm pretty happy with where I'm at!
So, Thank You Tom and everyone else for your help, guidance and knowledge. And I hope that this finds you and yours well and safe...
Arvin, I think you've expressed the real joy of this hobby. The personal satisfaction of a carefully crafted system, where the pieces have been assembled in a pains taking fashion over time, in many cases over many, many years. The special bliss when the synergy is there to be had and the gear and the music all come together and magic happens.
uncle_monkey Regarding your post and comment about the IsoAcoustics Gaias, I wanted to relay my experience. Give social separating and all, I've been spending time redoing my whole system; I've torn it apart, remade all contacts, isolated components, redressed all wires, repositioned speakers--and finally (after many months of experimenting with speaker position) remounted my CS3.6s onto my Townshend Speaker Isolation Podiums. Since I think they have the same function as the Gaias, I wanted to provide my experience with using the Podiums. Specifically-IMHO and in my room, they provide: -- significantly improved width and depth imaging -- significantly better "disappearing" of speaker positioning -- better low-level detail retrieval -- some lessening of an upper-mid peak present in the 3.6s -- tighter and better defined low-mid-bass with better rhythm & timing (I'm a Naim guy) Along with all those positives is a caveat. My dedicated listening room is on the second floor of my house-so on a suspended wooden floor. I bought the Townshend Platforms primarily in an effort to lessen transmission of low-end bass notes into the house structure (and quiet my wife complaining from downstairs of "the boom"). The isolation platforms significantly reduce this problem, so I can listen louder and later if I want without bothering the rest of the house. Along with all those positives is the fact that the platform's taking away of the floor's significant contribution to the low-end also somewhat lessens the excitement and impressiveness of the bottom end. So while the bottom end is cleaner and faster, it's also a little less impressive since what you're left with is the sound of the speaker alone-devoid of the low-end enhancement and reinforcement from the floor. For me-it's 95% positive using the isolation platforms, but some may find it more of a compromise. (These comments are based on my previously using the supplied spikes.) Since you're lucky enough to have a wood floor over concrete, you may not have the same experience as I did. Hope that helps! I'm going to update my system pics on Audiogon's Virtual Systems Community section to reflect the addition of the podiums and "prettying up" my system, if anyone wants to see the 3.6s on the Podiums. Stay safe everyone!
Once again, I gotta' agree with prof. I've been in a pseudo self-quarantine since June (no depth perception and zero vestibular balance)' My 27s, plus sub, are a superb way t0 forget the isolation.
Once again, I gotta' agree with prof. I've been in a pseudo self-quarantine since June (no depth perception and zero vestibular balance)' My 27s, plus sub, are a superb way t0 cope with the isolation.
I’m also chasing the last 10% with my Thiel CS3.6’S which sit on Sound Anchors stands (about 1”) off the floor. I’m using 1 spike in the front and 2 spikes in the rear for each stand. Right now, the speakers are sitting g on top of the stands with no pucks or spikes or anything. My bass power is there from my Bryston 4Bsst2 amp plugged into a Bryston BIT-15 power conditioner’s high power outlet. Even though the power is there, a little bit of detail retrieval is missing. Any suggestions on further optimizing them would be welcome.
Arvin - thanks for sharing your synopsis. I'm curious how you landed on 30 - 32" seat height. George - I had hoped you had gotten relief by now! I presently, since December, am struggling with similar symptoms. Reducing electromagnetic fields, especially microwave from wi-fi router and smart electric meter have helped. Brain electro-chemistry is wonderful when it works. Shubert - Yes Dawn is wonderful. You may have "met" her virtually as Thiel's international sales manager from mid 90s to 2013 collapse.Masi- consider trying to stabilize the speaker on the stand. Three coins (back corners and front middle) serves to unitize the speaker with the base. Please report back. Also, small wire gauge can smear the bass.
@tomthiel Hi, Tom. That’s the height I get in my new, lower listening chair. Still considering elevating my speaker using butcher-block atop brass cones/spikes, but have settled down for now...enjoyment-factor is just too good! Arvin
Welcome! back. I was thinking about plugging your power amp into the wall outlet instead of the BIT-15 conditioner. Report back if you hear/perceive a difference in the Bass output. Take time to read through this thread as there are several 3.6 fans and members of the Panel.
Arvin - FWIW, the design ear height is 3' and distance 10'. Closer than 10' means greater sensitivity to height. But, some folks prefer the more mellow presentation of lower listening heights.
Feeling bored ? Would you like to make a FREE improvement to the listening pleasure thru your Thiel speakers ?
I went into my speakers to see , take pictures and prepare for the re-wiring of the speakers and crossovers , the wire used by Thiel is 18 awg and is constructed as 2 wire bundles running parallel . I pulled the wire apart seperating them and received a pleasant unexpected surprise , how could doing so little make a detectable difference , yet it did !
Go into your speaker thru the passive radiator and pull or seperate the wire bundles apart , you can reach the incoming from the speaker post , the mid and tweeter up to the first cabinet brace and the bass all the way to the speaker .
@tomthiel Since you gave my speaker cable idea a try and found that it offered an improvement you know I'm not being totally crazy with my suggestions. maybe you could try this on one of your speakers that you experiment on.
Rob - please remind me what model speakers you have. The separation that you are describing was, in my day, standard practice. We always separated the twisted pairs to reduce capacitive coupling of the wire runs. Has anyone else noticed whether their runs were parallel or separated? I would like to figure out what's going on.
I have CS2.7s , the wire says " GSC Wire & Cable Pro Speaker Wire Oxygen Free Copper Wire " 18 awg running parellel not twisted , Rob mentioned 3 twist per inch , to bad we can't attach pictures .
Rob - that sounds like someone replaced your original wire. Thiel wire was unmarked Straightwire (oxygen-free, 3 twists / inch, teflon jacket,etc.) . Did you buy the speakers second hand?
These came from Thiel Audio after the move and sell out , they were shipped to Tenn. and put into storage . When the new Thiel went bankrupte they sold the CS 1.7s and 2.7s they had along with one 3.7 on E-bay . Serial #s 329 & 330 .
Rob - I can only speculate. Rob Gillum would know if your wiring was stock or not, since all the 2.7s were built by him in Lexington. I suggest that you query Rob and report back to us what you learn.
Out of curiosity, this question is probably for Tom. As all of Thiel designs using a angled-baffle, do they all have the same angle? What would you say the average angle of the baffle?
I’ve found that about 8 degree has worked well for me.
Andy - the baffle angles are similar because the design parameters are similar. But each takes its own particulars into consideration and yields a slightly different resultant angle. Notice that some models have slight wave-guides which differ from one driver and model to another, determined by target radiation pattern to equalize power response through the crossover. Also, distance between drivers makes a difference. Bottom line is whatever angle produces co-temporaneous arrival time at the design target (about 10' out x 3'up x 10° off axis). The CS2.2 has about 11° baffle tilt, others more and less.
Good to see you again. Are you building a new loudspeaker?What else is on your radar this Spring season?
I've been detoxing :-) I've recently converted a 3-way speakers, that previously was designed with higher order filters, to first order time phase coherent which sounds really good. I am looking to build my own website publishing some of the designs I've made, but so far time has not permitted.
There is a new loudspeaker on the scene in the tradition of Time - Coherent design- Qln Prestige Three.
I’ve read the review and also the interview with the designer but I couldn’t find any reference to it being "time-phase coherent". He did mention the slanted baffle was made to "time align" the tweeter and woofer acoustic center but that does not necessarily mean a "time-phase coherent" design. https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2019/12/19/59hvvshkumcd2ft8l8oglik1j7r18c
Also the woofer seems rather large, probably around 7in., which may have an issue running at a higher frequencies to match the tweeter which is required of the woofer if using first order design. It may explain why most of Thiel designs using smaller than average mid driver.
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