I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Tom - Thanks for the feedback, I think the crossover must be what is described as point to point. All of the components are soldered directly together on the back of the board. I don't see any other possibility than one of the three components has a short. There is another path but it goes through a resistor, pair of capacitors, and coil in series. I'm guessing it's some sort of secondary path to deal with some specific problem.
It's really annoying. I guess now I bust out the soldering iron, take the components off the board and measure them. I have a hardware store multimeter that won't measure capacitance.
Jon - I haven't had your experience, but I can comment.Broken leads are usually caused by excessive excursion.Your 2 volts AC at the tweeter and woofer with a 60Hz test signal is improper. Tweeter should be near zero.Caps and resistors usually blow open, not short. Hmmm. Shorted feed cap or resistor would cause direct feed and tweeter destruction.If your XOs are on PCBoards, the short might be in a trace, not component. Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service might help troubleshoot
I finally got around to trying to figure out what was going on with the ViewPoints I bought in March. I had bought a replacement tweeter and installed it but it wasn't working right. I took the speaker apart and played around trying to get it to work. There was a signal at the tweeter terminals and at the plugs where it is installed. After being mystified for a while I noticed that the new tweeter had the same problem the old one had - the wire that connects the voice coil to the plug was broken.
Hmmmmm. I played a 60hz test tone and measured the AC voltage at the woofer terminals and the tweeter terminals. They both had exactly 2 volts. I'm thinking this means that one of the capacitors or the resistor in the tweeter path is a full short. Anybody have this experience?
@jafant yes you should definitely audition the Diablo 300 before making any decision.The Gryphon will have much more grip on your 2.4SE than the Ayre integrated, just my 2 cents. I'm going to demo the Gryphon Mephisto stereo by the end of this month, will keep you guys posted.
I have a pair of shipping crates for CS5, free to anyone who can pick them up in central NJ 07726. they are pretty big, I’d say almost 6ft high. I could barely fit them in my SUV. contact me here or PM.
Jafant since you want to purchase the Ayre integrated, did you also think about the Gryphon Diablo 300 ?That's one very good alternative in the same price range and you could find a used one. Cheers.
Welcome! Good to see you here. Very informative post and system. The HCA-3500 is still a relevant amp, IMO. I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes. Excellent shout out for Rob Gillum.
Hey Thiel 'Gonners! Just finished my last round of updates for my 3.6s including the big 100uf ClarityCap CSAs and a handful of Mills MRA-12s among other componets. The sound has, for a lack another word: CLARITY! The bass is much more controlled with better low extention. With the lack of a muddier midbass, the upper mid-band and treble extention are also more revealed. It's quite a trip to listen to them now and more to come after my back-ordered bypass caps and more Mills come in another month or so. In the mean time I'm sending my midranges to Rob at CS for rebuilding next week. While I wait though, I ordered and received a set of ScanSpeak Discovery 12w/4524gs to use in the interum. They were recommended for 3.6s by a reputable distributer but I hadn't seen mention of them here on A'gon nor has Rob heard them used in 3.6s before. I've had them for testing for about a week now and my summed mono A/B comparision reveals them to be forward and too narrow a bandwidth thus far. I'm running them through a pink noise generator for another 100 hours or so but have suspisions they'll fall short of the original, as to be expected. Perhaps some voicing in the crossover would help however, since I'm only using them in the interum, I think I'll just wait it out; yerning for Rob to send back the Vifas ASAP. Anyone else had experience with these ScanSpeaks before or have sugestions?
It sure has been fun catching up with you guys on our forum over the past few days. Looks like the 3.5 continues to get a lot of love and, with the Great Unpleasentness among us now, all these creative minds with more time on their hands, are comming up with so many really wonderful ideas for modding. Keep it up guys! It's so fun to follow your progress and hope that my 3.6 project helps others in some small way as well.
@tomthiel I have a pair of Klipsch Chorus II I will be stripping down and doing a restrain before I encounter my 3.5. I also have a pair of the lighter oak finish (ash?) cs2.2 that has a light cup stain on top that I wouldn’t mind fixing.
Hello everyone! Wow, what an informative thread this is! I’ve really enjoyed reading through here and learning so much about Thiel speakers. Such a wealth of information.
I picked up my first pair of Thiel speakers a few months ago. I found a pair of CS7’s locally and couldn’t pass them up. When I bought them, they were described as fully functional, but, as soon as I got them home, I realized there was an issue with one of the 12" woofers. I could hear the coil rubbing the former on bass notes at moderate levels. Thankfully, Rob Gillum was able to help me out. I shipped the woofer off to him and he rebuilt it back to factory spec. Turns out the suspension was a bit tired and allowed the cone to sag which caused the VC to rub. It’s good as new now. I may rotate the other woofer 180 degrees as preventive maintenance. However, removing these woofers is no easy task. Definitely a two person job to minimize the risk of damaging the concrete baffles. The woofer alone weighs 30 lbs!
Anyway, I’ve had them up and running for a few weeks now and I’m really enjoying them! They’re much different from the other speakers I have in our home. In a good way! Excellent detail and imaging. Some of the best I’ve heard in that regard. Bass is clean and tight with no trace of boxy boominess. Really exceptional speakers! I’m running them on a modest setup at the moment; Tidal/Amazon HD, Bluesound Node 2i, SMSL M8a, Anthem Pre 2L SE and Parasound HCA-3500. I’ll be changing things up in the coming week. Curious how the CS7’s will respond. :)
FYI: Thiel stained bare wood; if stained, the clearcoats would be on top of stain. If natural, the clear sealer and topcoats would be on bare wood. Refinishing is serious business. Are you experienced? You might consider some form of over-coat, like a pigmented topcoat, or translucent or opaque paint.
Thanks @tomthiel and @thielrules. My first thoughts they were the lighter color that Thiel offered then they stained this color. They don’t feel like they have been sanded and you can see on the edges where the runoff was. I guess once I get them sanded down carefully, I’ll be able to see what’s underneath.
Jhouse - your speakers certainly do look altered, that's not a Thiel factory finish. The veneer looks to be Mahogany, which has a natural color in the salmon spectrum, which is generally stained some shade of red-brown. It looks like yours have been stripped, leaving some color in the scratches and pores. They could be refinished professionally or DIY with readily available finishing materials. Thiel used very little Mahogany due to a combination of low demand and high hassle factor. There are many types of figure, grain, color and embedded expectations regarding Mahogany. Mahogany with its terminology and nuances is well understood in the world of fine furniture, but practically invisible in the world of audio. We would have needed an education and interface department to promote Mahogany, and chose instead to just offer it as an option on demand. Hard to guess why your cabinets got stripped.
Jhouse, those speakers look like they have the same color as a pair that I have, and teak seems right. However the finish of your speaker is not original and will need some work to rehabilitate. Tom has probably some good suggestions what to do.
brayeagle: Congratulations on your 97th. I loved the origin tale for your handle. You brought your own good stuff to this forum. Enjoy your system. Salute.
protoss71 Welcome! Good to see you here. There are a few fans and owners of the CS 2.3 on the Panel. I concur about sitting 8-10' away from the 2.3/2.4 models. Feel free to return if you do not like Tekton Moabs.An ARC Ref5SE is a sonic match with Bryston 4B-SST.
I have a pair of cs2.3's. Had them for the last 20 years. I upgraded the coax mid/tweeter to the two magnet unit, this was pivotal in me keeping them, as I had a heck of a time taming the brightness. A tube preamp helped considerably also. As per most Thiel products, very high resolution and lack of coloration. Makes poor recordings sound poor, but good recording sound fantastic! I have a high current amp (Bryston 4bsst). Not sure of the differences between 2.4's and 2.3's. Make sure you are sitting at least 9-10', as the drivers need the distance to blend appropriately. After 20 years, got the bug to get a new pair of speakers, ended up buying a pair of Tekton Moabs, still waiting for delivery, Eric is very busy! Hopefully it is an upgrade over my Thiels, as the return shipping cost will be considerable.
jhouse55 Welcome! Good to see you here. I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes and system. Thank You for the shout out on Rob at CSS. Happy Listening!
Hi Guys, great thread. I’m now the owner of CS1.2, 2.2 and just picked up a set of 3.5 (5815,5816 sn#)which I’ve been after for a while. My question is finishes that were offered on these. When I went to look at these, my first thought was someone over the years stained these and that they were the original light color model. Rob @coherent said they looked like the Teak finish. Hope you can see from the links and zoom in. Thanks in advance. https://drive.google.com/file/d/13XIPQzG687UGth47H5rctJ_AAks6jwG4/view?usp=sharing
George, It's been my pleasure. For the record, I concur that the 2.7 is the mature work of masters of the craft, what tool-heads call ' a clean machine '. Any performance gains will come with significant expenditure. I'm happy to have you enjoying them. Best regards.
Hit my 97th last month, and I'm happy, very happy, with my Thiel 2.7s,Thiel sub and Bryston electronics. No reason to contemplate modifications,, upgrades, etc.
It's funny to see people discussing concrete baffles. I'm back to my Madisound kit for the first time in a year and trying to make concrete baffles for them. I've tried several kinds and thus far they haven't worked. I have no experience with concrete so I'm trying to get a feel for it. My currently drying attempt is with concrete countertop mix. This stuff really should work. It costs $25 for a 50lb bag and I mixed a bunch of glass fiber in to help with cracking.
rossw Welcome! Good to see you here. There are several 3.5 fans and owners on the Panel. Take your time reading through this thread, as there is a plethora, of information. I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes and system. Happy Listening!
Prof - Paul Hales is very talented and precisely educated. He got his degree in mechanical and electrical engineering for the purpose of designing loudspeakers.
Rossw - To me, the 3 / 3.5 seems the quintessential Jim Thiel design, before he had to cave to ported bass for practical reasons. We were breaking new ground in those early days, and I am pleased the early products stand up today. The 3.5 is near the top of my list.
After Thiel, I did some consulting including Hales. Remember the mid 90s upper end Hales’ with cast baffles? That’s the stuff.
Maybe not coincidently, Thiel and Hales were among my favorite speaker brands of the 90s and continue to be so. I owned Hales Transcendence 5 speakers and still own and love my Hales Transcendence T1 monitors and center channel, which do home theater duty these days.
As a long-time CS3.5 owner I'm glad to see that so many others share my love of this speaker! Fortunately the original drivers are holding up so far, but I do live in fear of losing a mid range driver. My listening area is quite small so even with the EQ they live a pretty easy life. I can't wait to see what you come up with to keep these speakers going long into the future.
Guys - thanks for the grace for my rant. The marble baffle was a work of art as it stood. The concrete of the 6 and 7 has its own story. My last project in the mid 90s was developing a lower cost baffle for the 6 and 7, which was a Hydrostone product combining gypsum with portland cements , is highly machinable, accepts damping agents and paints quite well, and has zero shrinkage. It also requires forced hot air kiln drying, could not be outsourced and all-in, cost more than the CS5 baffle in its final painted form. That never made it to production. Back story: introduction of mystery character. Walter Kling was one of the 5 partners who started Thiel Audio as our communal venture. Walter was genius at tooling, jigs, fixtures, and so forth. He complemented my skill set very well, and we wouldn’t have created a company without him. He left after a few years for personal reasons and had a career in architecture. For my exit plan after 20 years, I hired 3 people to carry on the rigors of growing production. Walter was central to that transition, and he shone till he left at Jim’s death. Unsung hero, and Jim’s right-hand man.
Walter brought his architectural mind-set, and Jim had always asserted that "Concrete would be the ultimate cabinet material". I disagreed due to its high Q, low impact strength, continual shrinking over time and its quirkiness as a paint substrate. You probably saw this coming: they chose concrete for the next baffles. And it shrank and cracked and required replacement with the "polymer mineral compound", which is shorthand for aggregated polyester, similar to the CS5 baffle but strictly paint-grade with no marble / pretensions of high-gloss, see-into glamor. I understand that it worked fine. But then what to do with that Hydrostone research and development? After Thiel, I did some consulting including Hales. Remember the mid 90s upper end Hales’ with cast baffles? That’s the stuff.
Maybe I’m just lucky, but I find the integration of two subs with my 3.5s to be seamless and without issue.
I spent a little time getting the positioning absolutely correct, by ear, which in my music room turns out to be exactly 1 foot behind the speakers with the sub drivers at 90 degrees to the Thiel drivers and both sub drivers pointing into the soundstage. My inspiration for this configuration was side firing subs such as can be found in the Golden Ear range. I found that having the drivers pointing at the listening position made them too obvious. For whatever reason, having them at right angles to the 3.5s creates an incredibly smooth transition. I never sit there thinking I have subs on. It all sounds totally integrated.
Obviously there is some tweaking with sub settings but what’s interesting is that I found exactly the same positioning and levels also work perfectly with my Quad 57s. The subs are connected to the amp by an extra speaker cable per channel. I prefer to still let the Thiel woofers do their high quality stuff and then set the subs so that they subtly kick in at the right point.
The subs are the now discontinued but still available Polk 505s which were practically being given away at the end of their run, but work amazingly well having been designed with music reproduction in mind, according to the blurb. These have 12" drivers so they produce plenty of very clean oomph. I bought them as a stopgap, assuming that I’d have to upgrade to fancy RELs or similar to get great results. Three years on and I don’t have the slightest urge to change this set up.
I note Tom’s comments about the preference for a new all-in-one bass eq solution on the work he is doing. However, I can report that the bass performance I’m getting is substantially better than through the Thiel EQ box. It seems to be a really effective compromise.
With ageing speakers, I think it’s also valid to say that running subs takes a lot of strain out of the mid range drivers, especially. Obviously for the moment it’s important to keep those running until an adequate replacement is either created or sourced. Fully accept that everyone is going to have their own experiences in their own listening environments, but in my own case I just couldn’t be happier.
I want to be able to run these 3.5s for the rest of my days if that’s at all possible. They are that rarest of speaker that never drops the ball on any type of material. As happy with punk as they are a string quartet. A genius design.
Getting good, deep bass in a room is always complicated.
A smaller (higher -3 dB) speaker can often sound much better in many rooms. 20-40 Hz are possible from even 6.5" drivers, but of course, not at concert levels.
Room treatments should always be considered among your first choices in getting good bass. Lowering the mid-treble energy in the room plus controlling room modes can transform speakers into sounding much larger.
tomthiel Thank You for a history perspective on the CS5 loudspeaker.Hope that you are well this Summer day and having fun researching / tweaking for the XO sound.
Tom I appreciate the back story on the cs 5 ironically As you know they used a concrete baffle on the cs7 so Jim must have realized that the direction you wanted to go with the baffles back then was the superior way to go.
Tom, i really appreciate your candor and transparency. A good reason to take another look at the 5i series. Your ideas about the Renaissance 3.5 are very much in line with my explorations, using triamps and dsp to test the range of possibilities. The demands on an amplifier with biamping or triamping a driver directly is so much easier and the availability of affordable good amps in the 100 w range is abundant. I concur that with minor eq shaping, a xo becomes unnecessary and the frequency range, distortion and phase response are so much improved. I would like to hear your thoughts about the directivity and what can be improved about that?
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