The tail of the PPs butts against the 8' ceiling for tweeters at 78" up. L-R distance is 4'. I would have preferred 4' out for 5'8" C-C or more, but stuff got in the way.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,628 responses Add your response
Mr. Bill- looking down on the room in bird's eye view, my floor standing speakers are 4' out from the south wall. But my PPs are not along that south wall. The "testing corner" is the south east corner. The right speaker is 3' out from the SE corner, hanging on the south wall with its tail near the ceiling. The left speaker is 3' out from that SE corner, hanging on the east wall. The floor to ceiling corner baffle is in that SE corner with the left subwoofer under the left speaker, flush mounted through the east wall, extending into a roofed area. The right sub cannot be flush-mounted because the south wall is not thick enough. I face the corner to listen, which makes a very flat, even recording and playback response, due in large part to the non-rectangular room layout. The room is an L, with one leg going along the south exterior wall and the other going along the east exterior wall, providing long symmetrical walls for each speaker propagation. There is no wall behind me to reflect sound, but rather the crook of the L, and those remaining walls are all porous, providing enough air containment for spatial signature, but not enough to support room modes. |
As you might have guessed by now, my installation is weird. My PPs are in a corner at 3' each from the corner with their tails near the ceiling. ( I couldn't get 4' due to physical constraints.) Their 45° vertical and horizontal launch from the symmetrical corner fills the room with little to no modes. Tom, Im trying to visualize the placement. Are the PPs each in a corner on the front wall (wall you face to listen) mounted hanging downward? |
Thiels never fail to reproduce naturally I would agree with that. On the other hand, higher order speakers tend to have some extra details or trebles on the voice that makes the voice "clearer" but not naturally. When you listen to a person talking in real life, you don’t hear the extra details that sometimes being reproduced by the speakers. On the same token, when the drum beats, the higher order speakers have some extra sparkles on the top end that makes it appear to have more slam, but probably not there on the real drum in real life. But some people may prefer the extra slam and sparkle of the higher order speaker so it's not like one is better than the other. |
The sound clarify in the second one is far from natural and has much distortions. I like heavy rock but would not measure speaker characteristics based on that kind of music (even some early Black Sabbath recordings are better for this purpose). There is no way to reproduce such recording naturally so it is hard to judge on speaker quality for that kind of recording, in contrary to the first one. Thiels never fail to reproduce naturally human voice, in particular. |
The differences are subtle, but important. Thiel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkf5uscX7Mg ATC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_QsAlqTN_E |
That's why I think either approach has its merits. To say one is "better" than the other is missing the point. As I also said in my previous posts (many posts ago), high-order speakers such as 24db/slope tend to have more "slam" vs. first order speaker, but on the other hand, first order speakers have a certain naturalness that not found in higher order speakers. |
@andy2 - I have both. I have two (or so) stereos and one is Thiel. The other has some active ATC 110s. I love both but I think there's no way to say one is better because there are inherent tradeoffs. The ATC system has dynamics that the Thiels can't come close to. The Thiels have a different kind of realism with unamplified, acoustic music that the ATCs can't touch. I like a variety of music and for any particular recording one system is almost always a clear winner. |
jon_5912, I'll let Tom comment with regard to your post. Personally, I think there's a market for both: time-phase coherent and non-time-phase coherent. There are plus and minus in either approach. Tom seems to think time-phase coherent is the only way to go. The new Thiel management seems to think otherwise. I was not there, but it seems like the lack of a reconciliation of the two polar opposite idea was what had done them in. If there was a middle of the road, maybe Thiel would still be around. |
@andy2 - I thought that's the direction new Thiel should have gone. Thiel had great drivers, great cabinets, but nobody who could do the crossover design. If they had gone with computer based crossovers they could've had multiple crossover settings where one was phase correct and the other higher order to allow for increased dynamic range. It may have been the best of both worlds and I think achievable. Give some big Thiels a fourth order crossover and I bet they'd have incredible dynamic range due to the fantastic drivers built for far wider bandwidth than they'd need to handle. I wonder if they discussed it before deciding to make the most unnecessary products ever conceived. |
Out of curiosity, has anyone here listen to speaker that has been corrected by the program Python rePhase? I think Tom did mention he had listened to before and after rephase? Does the sound change at all? The correction done by rePhase can be done in software so there is no hardware involved. People has listened to both before and after with everything else -- speakers, amps ... -- some say there is a difference some say not. For background, rePhase claims it can transform any speakers into time-phase coherent. |
fitter468 re PowerPlanes - I have never lived with PowerPlanes, but I have and use PowerPoint 1.2s, which are the same PowerDriver 6.5"x 1" coax. Pretty special. The woofer has dual front and rear cones with a styrene filler core, and the tweeter is the same as the 3.7, etc. I imagine that your PPlanes will have similar performance to the PPoints, which I call excellent by any measure. FWIW, I revised my installation to now have acoustic ceiling panel on the previous 1.5" felted foam roofing insulation, on 1/2" drywall on 2x6 studs, braced at their mid-point. It's a structurally rigid wall with progressively absorbent skin. I now have a SS2 in the wall under the left speaker and hope to get my SS1 repaired for a right-channel matching subwoofer. The PPoint is -3dB at 80Hz with sealed box 12dB/ octave and the Thiel SSub Passive XO matches that transition for as seamless a hand-off as I've heard. As you might have guessed by now, my installation is weird. My PPs are in a corner at 3' each from the corner with their tails near the ceiling. ( I couldn't get 4' due to physical constraints.) Their 45° vertical and horizontal launch from the symmetrical corner fills the room with little to no modes. A couple of potential problems were addressed. The vertical corner between them is filled with a 16" wide 45° floor to ceiling baffle. At the ceiling, there is a corner baffle at 45° to the ceiling for mounting drivers under test. The ceiling and floor behind the corner baffle have holes to vent back-pressure to the attic above and workshop below. That corner triangular void is insulated in the back 2 walls, plus acoustic cellulose on the back of the plywood baffle. I can measure no resonances in it. The bottom 2' has no plywood front face, but rather solely a piece of acoustic tile to dump the 3-plane floor-corner walls bass pressure into the insulated corner void and leak into the attic above and the workshop below. The room ceiling is finished in drywall. Both exterior walls are finished with acoustic tile on foam board and the interior finish on the 45° baffle is F11 wool felt on acoustic tile. This setup is my third (and final!) iteration of the idea of a quiet corner. I can test drivers or musical instruments or recorded voice / ensemble in this corner and play it back in the same environment. Very revealing of what's going on. I like it. The PowerPoints (and probably your PowerPlanes) produce a very solid, dense image with no discernible room or cabinet edge effects. Since they take no floor space, and present wonderful sound into the whole room and beyond, I would be happy with them as my sole playback source. Let us know how your PowerPlane installation shapes up. |
I've loved reading all the history and learning about Thiel speakers in this amazing thread from Tom. But it has come time for me to part with my CS7's. They are beautiful speakers but I have too many constraints to do them justice. Hope to find someone that can showcase them in their home. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa223f-thiel-audio-cs-7-full-range Cheers, -Mike |
Pops - I don't have their Zobels. These OCOS cables have been with me since about 1990 when Thiel Audio "upgraded" to more something better. I believe it was Straightwire coax prototypes with similar geometry but better wire and dielectrics. I don't know whether SW still makes such cables. Over the years, using these OCOS in many situations, with many amps and speakers, they seem to stay neutral however they're used. Coax cable claims such characteristics. I have double pairs, but have had to hotrod the termination plugs with hard-wired ends. The ends break tabs, etc. and Sumiko no longer services them. |
Unsound - later today (or tomorrow) I hope to directly compare some wire of interest to you. • Original OCOS / double runs• Straightwire Octave II which Steven Hill recommended as their best bang for buck cable• Morrow SP-4 copper / double runs I have been using the Morrow and Straightwire, so I have a baseline for the OCOS. |
@unsound my ears are burning and you are right. For me Straightwire maestro is the best sounding sub 1k speaker wire for both sets of my Thiels. They also beat out several way more expensive cables. I have always said you don’t need to spend crazy money on speaker cables with Thiels, just good quality “bang for your buck” designs like SW. Goertz Alpha-core MI 2 are a very close second for me. I have been using MIT EVO 2 in a full loom for about a year now, excellent combo of revealing yet still musical. Very difficult to get both qualities out of cables. |
@arvincastro, Alpha-Core offers (ed?) a free trial, with only shipping costs to be incurred. There is no sound reason not to use the RC networks (zobels) and they are only used to keep some amplifiers from going into oscillation. I strongly suggest using the RC networks! The original flat MI (copper) and AG ( silver) seem to be the preferred sounding versions. The later twisted runs are reputed to be more durable. The silver spades also seem to be the preferred terminations. Alpha-Core used to recommend the series #’s 1, 2 , 3 based upon amplifier output. I seem to remember recommendations of up to 150 Watts for the 1’s, up to 250 Watts for the 2’s and the 3’s for 250 Watts and up. The MI’s due to materials used are much less expensive than the AG’s. Whether or not one prefers MI’s (copper) or AG’s (silver) will come down to personal taste and budget, The specs are quite similar. FYI, all of the above refers to the speaker cables only. |
Hello all! Regarding the recent discussion on cables, I had always been interested in the Alpha-Core Goertz cables & the principals behind their design. Having read that these match well with Thiels has only peaked my interest even further. However, their have been some comments on other posts/forums regarding the lack of a Zobel network and possible damage using the Goertz design? I have to admit, I tried to understand the discussion, but it was over my head. Are there any considerations needed when using cables of this type? Checking on The Cable Company website, the Goertz cables are very competitively priced. As reference, my current speaker cables are MIT AVT-3. Thanks for any input...Hope you & yours are safe & well! Arvin |
Thiel Audio used to diplomatically recommend a few cable manufacturers. Amongst them were the OCOS. I’m curious what Thiel users experience with them might be? I believe @pops has tried them. In the past, he like myself have found the Goertz Alpha-Core and Straightwire Maestros to be amongst the best tried. I would be especially interested in comparisons of those three, as well as others to those. |
Just received a pair of powerplane 1.0s that I bought on eBay that I’m planning on using for my rears so I disconnected my cs7s (as I don’t have a 3 channel amp yet for my center and rears) and tried them out on the floor I’m was amazed as how good they sound!! I Listened to them for about 10 mins they really filled the room disconnected them and hooked up my 7s I could really tell that my Bryston 4nrb does not have enough oomph for the 7s! Oh how I wish audio consultants was still around! Do any of the Chicago area guys know if Scott or any of the other salesmen wound up at different hifi shops in the area? David |
As for bi-wiring, I know there are different opinions on the topic. For me here the order in term of improvement: 1. Single run but larger gauge wire 2. Smaller gauge wire but bi-wire 3. By amp For me, going from 1 to 3, the most difference was in the soundstage focus, in which the images are easier to see. There are those who think the improvement of bi-wire comes mainly from the overall larger combined gauge, but personally I see the advantage comes from the bi-wiring itself. |
beetle , Tom I have my wires taped to the sides of Cardas speaker wire blocks , which are 2" wide and then crossing in-between each spacing with them being seperated about 1/2" apart at the crossing . I did this so they aren't parallel possiblity reducing the possibilty of becoming a radio antenna . unsound I read the posts from your link , very interesting , but then again the whole issue of cable designs are very complex with no rights or wrongs , just differences with the end result and our own listening preferences and of course how deep are our pockets . The issue of frequency range and hearing is hard to explain in the audio world of listening , how much do the frequency ranges that we can't hear ( for me it's over 9,000hz and under 50hz ) affect the qualities of space, dimension , width , height , 3D imagery that we listen for but tecnically can not measure ? My reason to make my own cables was to try a theory about the Cardas design ( and because I couldn't afford to move up ) , which sounds better ? 2 wires of 11.5awg together equaling 8.5awg ( Neutral Reference ) or 1 wire of 9.5awg with the outer layer of wires being 1.6 times thicker ( Cardas golden Ration ) than the layer beneath it. I feel ( hear ) the home made cables sounded better ! Raising new questions , was it the increased size of the outer wire in the design ( since it is one awg smaller than before ) or was it because of seperating the positive/negative current flow ? or a combination of both? |
@tomthiel I widened the gap to more like 6” until close to the amp. I will listen critically again before switching back to the “standard” configuration. @andy2 The SE version has an oversized backplate, so I didn’t have to drill the veneer and MDF. But I probably would have if I had the regular 2.4. Then again, much of what I did was probably not for the faint of heart. There was a time or two when I worried I was in over my head. All smiles now! In most ways, my modded 2.4s sound as or nearly as good as the be$t I’ve heard. @jafant I do have a few of the myrtle blocks but most of my blocks are random pieces. Charles Hansen used to advise people who balked at the myrtle price to pick up a Jenga set at a garage sale. Pretty much all of my gear is on some kind of block, even my speakers which is supposed to be a no-no. But that’s a compromise to protect the hand woven rug I inherited from my parents. |
This seemed germane to recent discussion here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/speaker-cable-geometry-question |
