Thiel Owners

In term of low frequency measurement, please be careful with room affect.  Based on the plot above, it shows that at 30Hz, the energy is the same as at 1KHz which does not seem to be right.  The energy of the speaker should be down quite a bit at that low frequency.

I did some listening at a friend's house.

He recently moved from tube amps (AR) to a solid state Bryston amp.Vinyl set up.  He has access to high end stuff so he currently has a $25,000 phono stage, $12,000 cartridge, and extremely revealing speakers from Vivid (replacing for the moment his smaller monitors from another company).

I've heard his system get more and more transparent and detailed along the way.


And...I could barely listen to it by this point.

To my ears, it was all super detail and transparency, without a bit of human or organic warmth at.  All icy and cold and thin and hardened.

When I got back and spun tunes on my Thiel/Conrad Johnson set up, I just wanted the hug my system, it was so much bigger, richer, more beautiful and satisfying.

Tomthiel,

I know the numbers are not correct, I just wanted to show the theoretical effect of the difference between the two values to get an idea how large the impact will +/- be ;)

Andy2,

The measurement was taken from the listening spot with Dirac Live in my living room, there is no way to get perfect measurements without a  treated dedicated audio room,  that I don't have :(

The device I use to compensate my room with great results.

  https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a

Prof, welcome to the final destination on the ride.

Been there, done that.  Could have bought cars over what was spent.  Now my system is a lot like yours, beautiful, ever-present and faithful Thiels, fed by a big warm Classe, with a 58 year old tubed preamp full of ancient bottles conducting the arrangements.

Is it full of distortion and is ruefully unfaithful to the waveforms?  You betcha.  But when Nancy Wilson steps up and starts singing, she is RIGHT THERE.  Goosebumps always, media permitting.

And isn’t that why we go to all this trouble, to come home, pour a nice drink, and luxuriate in our musical retreat?

IMO, when you are left always listening to the equipment itself, and never the artistry of the music, you have forgotten the destination.  Others I’m sure will feel differently.  

Does anyone have the settings of peq filters that would replace the correction of the equalizer of the 3.5 series. I know that a graph of the correction was in measurement section of stereophile review but curious if the peq equivalent.

I have now finished the coax crossover of the right speaker and am listening to music with a big smile on my face, incredible how much such an upgrade brings!! And now also the CS2.4 shows its appreciation with the nicer parts :)

Still a lot to do,  but it's all worth it 

see link for the photos,
https://holco.picturepush.com/album/1171389/p-Thiel-CS-2.4.html

Rules - I have a schematic derived from real unit by a DIY. If that would help, I can email a copy to you. Tom

Prof, welcome to the final destination on the ride.

Ha! I know myself too well to think I’ve settled on my last and only speaker. I’m polygamous with speakers.

As I’ve said: my Thiels are so wonderful overall I really can’t imagine ever selling them. I’d truly end up kicking myself. So if I get new speakers it will be in addition to the Thiels, not replacing them.

As per my previous report: I listened to a fantastic Chet Baker album, featuring beautifully recorded trumpet, sax and flute, at my pal’s place, and then later spun it at home. The clarity at my pal’s place was extremely impressive. But at home on the Thiels (and CJ amps) it wasn’t only clear, the trump and sax were so much bigger, richer, had more realistic weight and presence and that elusive organic quality.

Joni Mitchell singing on Blue at my pal’s place was, again, impressively clear, but it wasn’t a human being: just a bunch of "super detail" where her voice seemed sort of disembodied and taken apart in the sound field.At home the Thiels focused all the sound so it all sounded like it was coming from the same place, a person in between the speakers, with body, roundness, appropriate softness, sibilance sounding like breath not like an electronic artifact, etc.

Nice job, @holco 
a second confirmation that Thiel performance can be elevated to the next tier by better passive parts. TBF, the parts I have were not available when the 2.4 was introduced. And if they were, they might have nearly doubled the retail price! I think Tom is working on a solution that gets most of the SQ I’m hearing but for less money. But final costs may be influenced depending on whether you have Lexington or FST boards. 

beatlemania,Thanks :)

I realize that the investment I made (> € 750) is not really realistic with a new loudspeaker of €5000 (bought them for €1600), but it is amazing how eagerly the CS2.4 appreciates the parts!!
I have had many (Magnapan, Kharma, Audiostatic, Kef, Oragle-Helicon, Red Rose Music, Aurum Cantus, Scansonic, etc etc) loudspeakers and I usually improve the crossovers because there is usually a lot to be gained but there is no one that comes even close to this Thiel loudspeaker :)

Wish Jim Thiel was still alive so I could shake his hands with respect!!

Btw, I found a date of my CS2.4

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16097433/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/20190119-164001.jpg

Holco - nice work and thank you. Please remind me of your serial numbers for my reconstruction records. FYI: part of the reason for the "eager appreciation" is that the other parameters are all designed for maximum performance. The driver motor distortions are less than 1/10th of anything else I have seen. And the dual cone driver has extremely low breakup and the cabinet has very low resonsnces, and so forth. In addition, I believe that phase coherence allows the aural brain to accept the signal as real rather than reproduced and as such the essence of the music is accessible to the entire sensing / feeling person. You have removed a veil and you can experience the improvements holistically.

As a historical note, Thiel budgeted $1/3 for cabinet, $1/3 drivers, and $1/3 crossover. That formula gives more budget to the crossover than most companies commit, but our requirements are high. A large portion of that high cost is in high-purity copper and the styrene x tin foil 1uF bypass caps. And the other parts were also carefully chosen within their budget constraints.  A company must second-guess its way to its target market, and this particular cost-performance plateau is where we struck our claim. Also, the ultra audio grade parts we have today were not available ten or twenty years ago.

Here's a Sunday Morning Flight of Fantasy from the memory bank. About 1990 with the CS2.2 and a hefty hand-full of new products in the pipeline, I speculated about an opportunity to reach a different market. The company didn't want to go that way, mainly because of the confusion it might create. But here's a sketch.

Create a new marketing entity. My name was 'Perigee - the closest approach'. Products would be developed based on the foundation-chassis of emerging Thiel products. The CS6 and 3.6 were in development. Products would reach elevated levels of aesthetics and performance. Performance would be via ideas like we are now exploring: better parts, internal or external cooling, bi and/or tri-wire with customer assistance to get it right. The cabinets would incorporate some eased or rounded edges or panels, use of exotic materials, super-selected veneers with sophisticated scraped and French-polished surfaces. Each finished pair would be optimized in the anechoic chamber rather than simply verifying its performance within tolerances as in production Thiels.

A corollary might be super performance professional monitors in service-clad rather than furniture grade cabinets. We had some high-end production and mastering labs using our speakers by that time.

Markets would be upscale. Prices might be double or triple those of stock. Although I call the idea fantasy. Its presentation and discussion were real - but its feasibility was very weak. Thiel was already straining under its relentless 30%/ year growth pressure. Taking on more was  unthinkable. 

Just for grins, I googled 'Perigee Audio' and it seems that an Australian has undertaken a similar idea with another historic line of speakers. However, I suspect such an idea might work for some enterprising young company. Who knows if Coherent Source Service might stretch into such a role . . . Isn't life interesting.

 

tomthiel,

Thank you also for your contribution over here, much appreciated!!

Sorry no readable serials on my loudspeakers.

The driver motor distortions are less than 1/10th of anything else I have seen. And the dual cone driver has extremely low breakup 

This is the main reason I came back to Thiel. Off the top of my head, the only drivers that  I consider clearly better than Thiel are the Vandy carbons and TAD beryllium coax, maybe some of the diamond tweeters. But those designs are well out of my budget. Jim T should be lauded for his efforts in making this level of performance available to working people. And, now, with better passive parts the performance level of those drivers gets really close to the $$$ designs.

Finished the second loudspeaker and there seems nothing wrong, except my jaw is laying on the floor, what a great great great sound!!!

This still without the Jantzen wax coils.

I'm loving the enthusiasm I'm hearing from you both.
Beetle - indeed there are great expensive drivers and some including Vandy who took Jim's lead in using copper motor shunts. Jim invented the solution on first principles and only when applying for patents did he learn that the solutions were lying fallow in the public domain for a long time. Faraday Rings.
Holco - your coil wire is ERSE or Jantzen 4-9s round and bonded, so your foil coils will be different in geometry and bonding only. Your comparison of the round vs foil is of great interest to me.  

Tomthiel,

A transcription about the Jantzen wax coil’s from a Dutch guy I really trust, Tony Gee

To get straight to the door: I absolutely love it! 8) With the 1.5mH Wax Coil I did a 1 to 1 comparison with a normal air coil with 2mm wire (Rdc = 0.22ohm) and a CFC-12 copper foil coil (Rdc = 0.21ohm), both from Mundorf. Furthermore, I have used both the 1.5mH Wax Coil and the 0.47mH Wax Coil in a number of different filter configurations.

What is immediately noticeable compared to an ordinary air coil is the large increase in spatiality and placement of the individual instruments in an orchestra. This phenomenon is something that ordinary copper foil coils also have, so not surprising that the Wax Coils in that respect are better than standard air coils. But what they offer even more than a normal copper-foil coil (and I’ve fallen for that), is the whole natural and expressive harmonic structure. Strings sound delicious to wood, intestine, horsehair and resin. Sopranos have a natural heat in their voice, etc.

These positive qualities are best reflected in classical music, singing and acoustic instruments, with "produced" popular music in particular the extra spatiality.

Today marks the 3rd Anniversary of this thread. In 2016, I started with post #1 from a fan's standpoint for Thiel Audio. I came to admire the design, form and function of these wonderful loudspeakers. The hope was to gather interest from like-minded Audiophiles. Well, it tuned out that there are more than a few of Us. Some have left to pursue other speaker brands while most of you guys are still here. This is a testament to Mr. Jim Thiel's hard work and passion for seeking nothing but the best in  presentation, sound reproduction. Several of you guys are experts on this brand exclusively.
Over time, I adapted this thread to catch all Music lovers from entry level, hobbyist, moderate, novice and expert. Recently, we have managed to attract electronic DIY and speaker building contributors. Moreover, there are occupational trades and professionals here. All of these attributes created an esteemed Panel. Talk of Thiel Audio crosses over into other audio forums as well. Those guys contact me away from Audiogon. I ask each and every one to join us here to continually improve this experience.I could not have predicted that two distinguished Gentlemen would notice this thread. Mr. Tom Thiel and Mr. Rob Gillum. Even though Rob is not involved directly, he has perused this thread. Tom has become a very active, all hands-on deck,  historical Asset. Thank You All - for your contributions, insight, impressions and listening experiences. The Audio Journey and Process starts here.

Happy Listening!

And hats off to you, jafant, for getting the snowball started down the mountainside!  Happy anniversary!

New XO boards now in final configuration on my former SEs. I guess I need a moniker for these. Maybe CS2.4TB for Tom’s Bliss ;^)

And though the boards are finished I still want to replace my FST input and output wire. Also, I intend to replace the binding posts and make the speakers biwirable. So, not quite to my end point. I have all the parts to complete the project but the Cardas wire needs to be tinned and my soldering gun is not the right tool. Gonna have to get a solder pot . . .

The new parts have various hours on them as I changed configurations over the past several weeks. I might have heard changes even up to 200 hours, which is where others have said Clarity settles in (Dave Garretson among them). So, burn in might not be finished?

That said, I’m super happy with the SQ I’m hearing. Musical immersion. I get the house to myself this evening :)

Maybe CS2.4TB for Tom’s Bliss

How about CS2.5?

Though I don't own Thiels I have been enjoying this thread for some time.  (I've been especially impressed by Tom Thiel's contributions: as a recovering philosophy major I've followed his ideas on the epistemology of sound with keen interest).  

Here's a good deal not too far from me.  Even if I had the spare funds at the moment -- and the spare funds for the needed amplifier upgrade -- I don't have enough room for these big beauties.  Not sure of the difference between the CS5 and CS5i, but I see the seller is also selling a dual mono 400w Levinson amp, and has been trying to get rid of both for a while.  I'm betting someone who offered $9k or so could easily walk way with the start of a world-class 2-channel system.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/THIEL-CS-5i-SPEAKERS/183292862680?hash=item2aad1b20d8:g:a3sAAOSwtalbMluL:rk...

kenazfilanWelcome! Thank You for posting the CS 5 ad. That would be a nice purchase for someone in the NYC area.  Happy Listening!

thosbThank You.  Happy Listening!

beetlemaniaThank You for the update. I am looking forward to the final configuration.Keep up the outstanding work!
Happy Listening!

JA - I want to express my appreciation for the group you have assembled here and its productive and cooperative form of engagement. Life is an interesting journey indeed and some gathering of energy such as here can change its course. As most people know at some level, family business is a peculiar beast; rarely is it simple. This group has provided a focus for me to re-approach unfinished business. I thank you all for being here.

Beetle - what a pleasure it has been to have you behind the curtain, questioning, researching, sharing . . . as we have made progress in this delicate matter of re-imagining this product statement of another person and circumstance - especially one's deceased brother. I am pleased with our progress and our results and now approach my own modifications and further investigation with the concrete knowledge and feedback that you have provided. Onward.

Andy - I wish to honor the classic Thiel naming system where a new numbered generation is accompanied by new drivers, generally all of them and usually a new cabinet - a new product on the shoulders of its forebears. Beetle's product remains firmly a CS2.4 with a twist allowed by changing circumstances of time. I don't know what to call these modifications and I welcome all ideas. The working IDs have been Level 1, 2, 3, etc. Beetle's upgrade is at level 3. Functional but oh so prosaic.

All - the presence of an audience here has encouraged me to devote focused time and resources to this project which simply would not have otherwise happened. This group has produced a pair of CS3.6s and an SS1 and SW1 and another SW1 on the way. I'm picking up a pair of CS1.6s this Sunday and have bought a pair of beater MCS1s for research and parts - these pieces in addition to the 4 PowerPoints which were motivated by the project. And my design studio now has a fairly well tricked out electronics and measuring nook for the ongoing work speaker. And it all feels right. Thank you all.

  

Ken - The CS5i is for Improved. The 3 bass drivers were re-engineered and the two low woofers were loaded with a central plug rather than damping mats. Crossover changes also smoothed things out in the lower midrange and reduced the upper frequency impedance rise for an easier electrical load. At the time there was an upgrade kit. Rob reports that the CS5i has virtually zero problems in the field. With proper amplification to drive the 2-ohm bass load, and a room big enough for proper integration, the CS5i can be wonderful.

The CS5 tweeter was our first completely in-house design with fancy motor tricks and an engineered aluminum dome - on the shoulders of new technologies first developed and tried in the CS1.2 tweeter. (The CS1 series became a trial horse for new technologies, much as the CS2 series became a trickle-down beneficiary of upper-end solutions. The late 80s is when our co-development relationship with Vifa flowered which served both of our companies very well for over a decade. We conscripted the CS5 tweeter for the CS2.2 and 3.6 for a very productive R&D cycle.

Thiel lovers and leaders, I just swapped out my C6 for my beloved 3.6 for fun.  I do this on occasion.  I am retired so I can play with the system when I have the urge.

What a different animal!  Just so transparent and open, not that the 6 is a slouch and once again confirms my preference to the driver scheme in the 3.6.

Keep up the good work Tom and Team Thiel!  Reading and following with great interest as I will no doubt need to update my XO’s at some point.  

Pops - It's interesting that the CS6 has not come up in conversation or as an upgrade candidate. I learned that there was an internally designated CS6.1 with an upgraded midrange (?) and XO. Rob might know what you have. And I, of course, would be interested in what you find out.

Pops - I have not yet made serious direct comparisons, but the two driver scenarios both have trade-offs.

The 3.6 vertical stack makes the listener vertical ear position more critical, the constructive and destructive lobing affects the frequency response. But, each driver gets a controlled wave launch from the stationary baffle.

The CS6 along with the 2.3 and up and 3.7, etc. with the coincident driver greatly solves the first problem. The tweeter is where it is designed to be regardless of the listener position. But, the tweeter sees the midrange cone as its wave launch. Even though its cone shape is engineered as a tweeter wave-guide, that cone is nonetheless moving. I don't really know whether that launch is more or less problematic or just different. I know that the coincident PowerPoints are uncannily integrated. And I also know that the CS2.2 tweeter (3.6 and 5) sounds different and lovely.

Who knows? I hope that by this time next year we will all know more.

For the passive radiator, how solid are the threads on the screws?  How many times do you think they can be removed?  Ideally I guess you only need to remove only once but it would be nice to have a bit of margin in case of errors.

tomthiel
Thank You for the kind words. I, for one, am glad that you found us.
Once your end of the XO project reaches its final configuration, I look forward in meeting you later this year. Keep up the outstanding work!

Happy Listening!

@andy2 my 2.4s have wood inserts for all the driver screws including the radiator. Good thing. Between early reconnaissance, replacing the resistors, and the more recent work I’ve probably taken the radiators off 20+ times. There is a trick to it. Elsewhere I posted instructions from Rob Gillum.

Good thing. Between early reconnaissance, replacing the resistors, and the more recent work I’ve probably taken the radiators off 20+ times. There is a trick to it. Elsewhere I posted instructions from Rob Gillum.

Thanks.  That makes me feel much better trying to work on the xovers.

Happy Friday- All.

Has anyone successfully integrated a subwoofer (or pair of subs) with the 2.4's (or other Thiels)?  How?  Electronic crossover?  Which one?  Which subs?

Yes!!!

Two SVS SB2000 subs placed just inside the 2.4s, lined in from PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC, built-in crossovers on subs set to ~60 Hz, phase set at 12 o'clock, volume at 12 0'clock, and running the 2.4s at full bandwidth via balanced ICs to a pair of Stellar M700s with Audioquest CV8 speaker cables.

Amazing!

pwhinson
Good to see you again. Hope you are well and enjoying your system today. A few members of the Panel are using additional sub(s) to excellent results. Guys chime in here.

Happy Listening!

stevecham
Good to see you here. Thank You for chiming in on the subwoofer query.
Audioquest is a sonic match for Thiel loudspeakers. Hope you are well today and enjoying the music on your system.

Happy Listening!

@pwhinson Thiel's subwoofers with an integrator is absolutely magical. Makes the 2.4's sound like massive speakers while cleaning everything a notch or two

stevecham - can you please elaborate on your choice of amps?  I am interested in the Stellar M700s and wondering how they sound compared to other amps you have used with the Thiels? Thanks ahead of time!

Just checked hifishark for the thiel integrator...boy they don't come on the market very often!

As some may recall, I was outspoken and against Class D amps for many years, having heard only a pair of Rotel monoblocks at a local dealer about 13 years ago. My position was that there was no way a switching design could outperform Class A and A/B designs due to all that high frequency noise. Fast forward to late 2018...

I have owned amps (integrated, stereo and monoblocks) by conrad johnson (tubed and solid state), Parasound, Bryston, Krell, Musical Fidelity, Denon, Marantz, NAD and most recently, Manley Labs. After reading about PS Audio’s Stellar line, and in need of a dedicated preamp as I was downsizing, I decided to take them up on their trade-in and home trial offer and I am so very glad I did. The M700s "woke" up my Thiels in a way no other amps ever have. I know, that’s quite a statement, but I have had several of my audio buds come over for a listen. They were all familiar with my other amps through my Thiels. All said by far the best they’d heard. It’s not so much the power and oomph they provide, indeed they’ve got that, and certainly the Krell FPB 400cx had it, but it’s the quality of the music they produce. I don’t listen loudly anymore, typically peaking in the low 80s SPL by my ratshack meter. These sound like tubes, and I know what tubes sound like, but they are also very micro and macro dynamically revealing, very sweet once broken in, and best of all, I have never heard so much front to back and left/right resolution. I’m also a musician, and I have never heard in any of my systems, acoustic guitar that sounds like it’s in the room like that. If this is a good as it gets from here until the end, I’m totally satisified. There is zero noise, even with my ear up to the tweeters at a level that would be deafening. By far the highest value purchase I’ve ever made. Same with the Gain Cell DAC preamp. PS Audio absolutely rocks! Anyone who is in the market for a preamp/DAC, stereo amp or monoblocks really should consider their home trial offer. I’ll bet VERY few get sent back.

beetlemania
this one is for you my Audiophile friend. Today, I spent a beautiful sunny afternoon in Buckhead Atlanta, visiting HiFi Buys. Owner Alan Jones has been in audio retail for 25 years and counting. In fact, he was the southeast Thiel Audio dealer/retailer until Mr. Jim Thiel's passing.
Alan has a very nice photo with Jim in his office. I have known of his excellent reputation from his days of operating Audio Alternative.
I wanted to audition Ayre electronics, which has been on my short list, for many years. I am glad that I waited because the current operation has much better sound rooms than the older establishment per Alan.
Specifically, the Ayre AX-5 Twenty peaked my interest. The rest of the system- Monitor Audio PL100 speakers, Ayre QX-5 Twenty digital hub, AudioQuest Niagara 5000 power conditioner (much needed in downtown Atlanta), Audioquest Hurricane and Tornado PC, Audioquest Castle Rock  72V SP, and Audioquest XLR 72V IC (green connectors thus I did not see the model name). 
No physical cd/sacd player  on-hand for this demo, although my next audition will include an Ayre DX-5, so I can really dial-in the combo. The DX-5 is the only spinner where Ayre stocks  spare critical parts (drives/laser assemblies/transports)  per the late Charles Hansen.
Now, the fun begins. Selections via ROON and Tidal included my reference title Jamie Cullum 'Twentysomething', various Ben Harper, Daft Punk, Kate Bush, New Order and The Rolling Stones 'Get Your Ya Ya's Out'.  The combination of gear and speakers was excellent. I was pleasantly surprised by the full range sound of the MA monitor speakers.
Excellent air, instrument separation, little to no distortion, was appreciated. Excellent bass and treble extension heard. The system was slightly warm of neutral all around. I detected zero dry, lean nor thin characteristics all around. Overall, an excellent presentation.
Today's goal was to evaluate the Ayre Integrated amp on a first time demo. I look forward to the next installment with Ayre's own spinner to compliment my massive cd/sacd collection. 
Alan concurred that Ayre is a sonic match for Thiel Audio loudspeakers.
Further, he stated that I could not go wrong with an integrated or separates from a current/power output perspective. Distance was around 8 feet from set up and volume was set to 30 (plenty loud for close proximity).

Happy Listening!

stevecham
Thank You for citing your power amp history- that is quite the list!
No doubt that PS Audio is making tremendous strides in many areas of Audio reproduction. Ask ronkent , as he is our resident PS Audio expert.

Happy Listening!

@jafant glad you got to hear that Ayre stack. My combo of AX-5 and QB-9 will result in clipping around a “40” on the volume indicator (max 46, 1.5 dB steps). My room is 18x19 with a vaulted ceiling and two large openings on the rear wall. I listen at indicated 20-24 for folk and such, maybe 26-28 for orchestral, and 28-32 for rock. Much more than that becomes too loud for my preference. I have not experienced any strain at any level, just beautiful music.