Thiel CS2.4 to what?

Right On! beetlemania
Happy Listening!

My 2.4 upgrade path is to rebuild the XOs. Working with Tom Thiel, I plan entirely new boards, maybe reuse a single 1uf bypass cap. Even the coils will be replaced plus probably going to use Cardas terminal posts. The 2.4 drivers are hellagood. I think this mod could bring them in line with most anything new up to $25k.

cal3713hope to see your return to Thiel Audio speakers.  Happy Listening!

pwhinson
Thank You for the follow up on Pass Labs.  Feel free to keep me updated over on the Thiel Owners thread.  Happy Listening!

@pwhinson Interesting.  I had Thiel 2.4s and tried out both an X250.5 and an XA30.5... ended up keeping the XA as it just had a more natural sound and didn't give up as much in the bass as I thought it would.

The X150.5 is more than enough power for the 2.4's.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  If you want more power sure go for the X250.8 but its really not necessary.  The other thing that Kent at Pass in response to my plan on buying a pair of monoblocks in the XA series, was that the XA series is the wrong speaker for the Thiels, that the X series would be a better choice.  Thereby saving me $10,000 or so.  Its a great combo.  I think eventually I may move on from Thiel.  The thing that Pass does for the Thiels is that the amps warm the speaker up considerably, fleshing out the lower midrange and upper bass where I think the Thiels can sound a little thin.  The other thing that happens is that very high end is no long harsh at all with the 2.4s.  It solved any brightness issue I have for me.  And the detail, the specificity of timber and separation of instruments with the Pass is phenomenal.  If I move on from the Thiels to something else it would likely be to something like a Vandersteen Quatro CT or even a Vandersteen 5.  I also like the idea behind the Paradigm Persona 9H, as well as the Legacy speakers with wavelet.  These options would presumably tighten things up top to bottom.  Before going that route I might try measuring the room and employing convolution through Roon with the Thiels and see how that sounds.

I've heard the X150.5's with 2.4's and the sound is quite extraordinary. The .8 is supposed to be a step up (although cut from the same cloth), so I can only imagine that it's a fantastic combination.

You might borrow a Pass X.8 series amp.  I purchased an X150.8 recently to run on my 2.4s.  Its far warmer and has huge power reserves for the Thiels than the Aesthetix Atlas i was using prior.  I've also used Bel Canto however, which is normally a good solution for Thiels as you may know.  The Pass x series really fleshes out the 2.4s like nothing else.  

I have an extra px02 I'll send for shipping if anyone needs it... 

audiojan,

Yes I hear you on that.   I heard the Virgo 2s in quite a few rooms, with various gear, including mine in which I could have lots of space to play with.  I tried with tube amps, and powerful Bryston amps.  Never truly got rid of the wooliness.  Fremer also said that of that speaker at some point as well. 

Loved the upper mids.  As I remember the Virgo 2s had a metal dome tweeter.  I think it added a very attractive bit of "shine/shimmer" to the upper frequencies which, married with the warm tone of the mids, made for a very seductive sound.  AP moved to soft dome after that I believe.
Changed the sound a bit, but the designs also got more coherent sounding.  The Audio Physic Libra I had were sort of the next step for the Virgo in a way - more coherent, punchier better defined bass, soft dome tweeter.  Very, very "organic and woody" sounding, in a good way.

The side firing woofers were supposed to make bass more even, but actually I think I found AP speakers could be a bit more challenging to set up because of them.  But when set up right, I love the AP speakers bass particularly for classical music.  There is a sort of "spread" of bass that seems to spread out around the room, especially for a swelling symphonic passage, that really reminded me of the real thing.

The Audio Physic Scorpios I had were a post-Joachim Gerhard design, though still maintained a lot of the AP sound.  They disappeared insanely well, were the most controlled, dense and punchy top to bottom of any AP speaker I've had, but they just lacked that last bit of magic tone from the Joachim Gerhard era, so I sold them and moved on.

I remember being pretty stunned by the original Avanti design, especially the Avanti Century.  But they used different drivers (metal) and went to soft dome tweeters and...I think maybe paper for the midrange.  The Avantis and Virgos after that had a really nice warm, airy sound, a bit softer than previous models actually, a bit more polite.   

The latest Avanti model sounds more neutral, does the disappearing/detail stuff really well and is one of my favorite looking speakers on the market.  Just incredibly beautiful cabinetry with the glass coating.  Didn't *quite* have the AP warmth that originally attracted me to the brand. 

Anyway, it is interesting to me that you moved from Thiel to Audio Physic, as Audio Physic is one of the few brands I could imagine moving on from Thiel to.

@prof, Audio Physic can be wooly unless you give them lots of space and an amp that can control them. I would actually argue that the Avanti 3's are just as magical as the Virgo 2, but just more of everything (better highs, deeper soundstage, deeper bass and more than anything else faster bass) and will completely disappear. I can speak from personal experience as we brought my buddies Virgo 2's over to compare them.

I've heard some of the newer AP models and although they're great, they definitely do lack the magic of the old ones. It's really like a different company after Joachim Gerhardt left.

audiofan,

I’m a long time Audio Physic fan - have had in my room or owned the Virgo 2, Libra and Scorpio models, as well as having heard plenty other audio physic speakers. (I auditioned the latest Avanti as well this year).

I agree, the AP characteristic of disappearing as a sound source is intoxicating. They are very hard to beat. The only speakers I’ve had that do as well (aside from my MBL omnis) were my Thiel 3.7s. The 3.7s disappeared pretty much as fully as any AP speaker I’ve heard, if not more all the way to the bottom.

(But they were visually/ergonomically too big for my room so I sold them and keep my Thiel 2.7s, which soundstage really nicely but don't disappear as fully as the larger 3.7s).

For my money, the Virgo 2s had a magic tone that AP never quite recreated. The problem for me was always their bass - it was a bit coloured and wooly in a certain region that I could never get rid of.

What I love about audio physic speakers - especially in the old days - is that they managed the hard trick of totally disappearing, maintaining incredibly fine detail, yet doing so with a warm tone that really gave a convincing warm sparkle to acoustic guitar, a woodiness to wood instruments, etc.

They are a truly great speaker brand. And frankly the Audio Physic Codex is one I’ve wanted to hear, and I had urges to grab the Audio Physic Avantera speakers advertised on audiogon a while back.

So on a whim I listened to a pair of Audio Physic Avanti 3 (not really a whim as my buddy has a pair of AP Virgo 2's) and the Thiel CS2.4's are now moved into storage. The AP does everything as well as the Thiels, but are smoother (without losing details) and I have never experienced speakers that can simply "disappear" like the AP's can. I'm VERY happy with them.

It's a shame to keep the CS2.4's in storage (although it's in a finished attic, so not much of a storage per se) so I will get them up for sale. The only thing I had to give up with the AP's is that they're in Cherry, not the Maple that makes the 2.4's look so darn awesome!

audiojan
Thank You for the update.  Happy Listening!

audiojan, the amps I am considering are the Bel Canto 600 Ref monos, Parasound JC1 monos, Pass Labs 150 INT, Benchmark AHB2 run in mono. I'm strictly a non-streaming digital guy, so front end will be PS Audio DAC and Transport.

@btg88, it's not absolutely necessary, specially with the 2.7's, 2.4's or the 2.3's, but it sure doesn't hurt. I would first make sure you have an amp that can deliver lots of current and is stable down to 2ohms... the 2.4's dip pretty low and it's not an easy load for an amp.

You can easily spend MUCH more on the front and and the amp then on the speakers and the Thiel's will still not be the limiting factor.

@jafant,the addition of a SS2 with an Integrator has been an amazing journey. They totally transformed the speakers (2.4's) by crossing them at 50Hz. The mid range opened up and the top end is oh so smooth and detailed. The most amazing thing is the "expansion" of the space, not only left to right (which was awesome already), but up/down and back/forth. The subwoofer taking over the low end added so much space to the recordings and makes it super easy to pinpoint location of sounds.

I'm also thinking about picking up a pair of Thiel speakers.  Looking at 1.7, 2.7 and 2.3.  Sounds like I would need to budget for a sub for any of these options in my 24 x 16 x 8 room.

audiojan
How ya doin' out there?  Happy Listening!

gosta
Please join us over on the Thiel Owners thread. I would like to read more about your Audio journey. It seems that you have had quite a few pairs of Thiel loudspeakers. You can offer a unique perspective.

Happy Listening!

Very interesting to know. The Thiels has given me a lot of insight into the need of clarity and of phase correct sound. However I found them a bit bass-light to use without a sub and the lack of bass bottom I think also means that you are concentrating to much on the very clear mid and a bit agressive highs. Was also a bit disappointed also with the 1.7 overall, which I bought last. Should give her more chanses I suppose. Thought about acquiring a 2.4 but already got a lot of speakers and also the last year moved inte the the world of ATC, Tannoy and recently Westlake. A lot to do there too :-). Do the SS2 and the Integrator work with all models or just the 2.4? And where can you find a such? I'm unfortunately located in the Nordic so not that easy (and expensive) to buy from US. Really appreciate a tip.

I also mean that for different music and different listening environments you really need more than one set-up of speakers. If and when you want efortless dynamic at loud levels that the Thiels might not give you have a look at the ones above. Their larger models are quite fantastic. It´s on those all recordings were and still are made....

Thanks gosta. I actually ended up getting a Thiel SS2 and an Integrator. It transformed the entire system to levels that I never even thought was possible. Ironically, the biggest different was actually in the midrange and high end of the speakers... another level of purity and smoothness that I didn't think the CS2.4's could do.

The bass with the SS2 is a real marvel. So incredibly fast and well integrated that you never know if it's on or not (unless you shut it off, then it's obvious).

Having Thiels 2.2, 3.6 and 1.7 I've been enjoying ATC and Tannoy for a while, but will soon let the Thiel's sing again. Tested a lot of subs I would suggest ATC are the best for music. Sadly rather expensive.

Agreed pops.
Happy Listening!

@audiojan “window into the music” as you describe is spot on! That is one of the addicting qualities of Thiels. Also, I personally would never leave before I maximized all other compenents and cables upstream synergistically.

My Thiels have always kept up and risen to new levels of performance with every component upgrade I have made.

Been there done that. I’ve had three pair of 2.4’s, as I always go back. Going up the line is not the answer,either. Rocky Mountain Audiofest is coming up in October, could hear a multitude of speakers there. You have a great system. Good luck!

@harrylavo, I think that's exactly what I'm going to do. I listened to a few other speakers during last week (some much more expensive than the Thiel's) and I was underwhelmed, just didn't have that "window into music" quality.

The goal is to find a Thiel subwoofer (or a pair would be ideal, but I'll settle for one for now). I already have the Integrator.

As the owner of six Thiel speakers, I will add my vote for keeping the Thiels and adding a sub.  Just make sure that you add one that 1) has lots of options as to phase and crossover frequency, and 2) is "quick and tight" to match the Thiels.  Flat to 32hz is just fine for music.

Keep the Thiels.  You'll miss them if you don't.

Pops,

I agree. I power my 7.2 's with a pair of Mac MC7300's in mono parallel. Music pours out them. The 3.6's are in my theater. They're getting the step-child treatment until I get a proper amp. 

I have both 7.2's and 3.6's and the only thing I'd ever think about replacing them with are Tidal Contriva G2's or Agoria's. They're that good.

Thats a big statement 3090 and I agree, I have spent some time with Tidals.  I have 3.6 (my favorite) and CS6.  Mcintosh 501’s drive them good, Classe CA200 drives them better.  

I ventured off track a few years ago with Egglestons Andra II’s because I admired them years ago but I could never keep the Thiels out of the system.  Hard to switch speakers when you are so accustomed to the sound and performance.

If you like what Thiels have to offer it'll be tough to find it anywhere else. I have both 7.2's and 3.6's and the only thing I'd ever think about replacing them with are Tidal Contriva G2's or Agoria's. They're that good. I like and respect lots of other speakers and speaker designers but for what I need and like, nothing beats Thiel except Tidal.

I've had issues in the past when I only had the 3.6's and what I've found is 90% of success with Thiel's are getting the amplification right. You get the muscle right, and the rest is just season to taste.

I recently made the same change you are contemplating.  I auditioned many speakers through shows, dealer visits and visiting local club members Systems.  Ultimately I purchased Spendor D9s.  Some would claim it quite a change (not in many ways), but I am loving them and they supply what over the past many years I couldn’t coax from the Thiels with many changes of equipment, room treatments, and even moving to a different home/room.  

The PSA BHK250 is high on the list of amps to try. They're expensive though... Or I might just take a hammer to the piggy bank and spring for the BHK300's right away... there's something very special about mono blocks.

I was toying with the idea of hunting down a pair of CS3.7's, but they're darn near impossible to find.

greetings,   i went from a set of 2.4's to a set of 2.7's and that was a great  move.  agree about adding a sub and I like the REL that i have.  good luck.
PS:  my 2.7's and now 3.7's do great with the PS Audio BHK 250 amp

I owned 2.4's shortly after they were introduced.  Ran them w/all the "right stuff", Pass Labs X250 & X pre, great CDP, all Cardas Golden cabling, etc.  They were great on well recorded material but hard to listen to on most recordings.   After a couple years I sold them and bought Coincident Partial Eclipse II's and never looked back - that was over ten years ago.  The Coincidents are just fantastic and enabled me to get into moderately powered tube amps.  Unfortunately Izzy isn't building Partial Eclipses any more...

I just replaced CS-7’s with Audio Nirvana Classic 15 ALNICOs ($1199/pr). These are full range drivers, you won’t believe how good music sounds without crossovers. You’ll have to find your own cabinet maker, but David will give you multiple cabinet plans to pick from. Having had Thiels, I doubt that you’ll have any issues with bright gear, Thiels don’t tolerate bright. Vandersteens would be a step down, not up, IME. Toss a towel over your Thiels, and you’ll have a pair of Vandersteens!

To my experience, Thiel speakers correctly reproduce the sound as it was recorded given that you have other adequate audio equipment. CS2.4 speakers do need a subwoofer, perhaps, this is what you are missing for enrich your soundstage. I suggest keep your CS2.4s (barely you will find something comparable for 2-5K, besides, keep in mind that Thiel speakers are no more produced).

Well, I haven’t moved from the 2.4 but does the 1.5 count? Probably not. But I did love those little speakers and I did covet the 2.4’s, still do actually. Anyway moved to low power set and single driver and have now gone push pull and supplemented with a super tweet. By large achieving my goals but missing something about those Thiels imaging and incisiveness

@woots, I assume they’re not for sale though... :-)

The 3.7’s I have are amazing. Sonically pure. 

Thanks @sandydennis11 really appreciate it. I bought it. Figured that even if I don't find the Thiel subwoofer I want right now, it will make it easier when I do, plus I can use it already with my other subwoofer (and allowing me to roll off the CS2.4, making them easier on the amps).

audiojan....  Actually the integrator is for sale on highperformance site

Audiojan, There is a S1 integrator on eBay. That should work the same as a PX02. Funny, my PX05 is set for the 2.4 as 2 of the channels. My PX05 is set for the CS3.7’s which are my fronts.

Audiojan;

I noticed the Krell amp
They are noted for bass!

I also used Dirac Live for sub integrate
It worked like a charm for sub integration, if you are still light on oomph.
you can play with all the settings and it’s very impressive to tailor the bass
You can try for 30 days as trial with Amarra!

As for your DirectStream, I hear nothing but good & was looking to try 

I found an added Tube with CJ pre really toned down poor recording shrillness

Extra room bounce can & does add to high end nasties.
Moving Speakers should help Or room adjustments like you are doing for bass & soundstage ( further in room less bass is what I found)

Thiel s and good sub ( or room dsp) should make a good difference & should integrate well

ps: I just upgraded to a Revel Ultima2 Studio ( extra woofer drivers recalled helped low end)
I do not think there is substitute for more surface area of drivers to low end 

jeff

@sandydennis11, The SS3 would be awesome, but you need the external crossover for it. Finding a PX02 set up for the 2.4's is darn near impossible. Otherwise, I agree, that sub would be close to idea.

@frozentundra, I've used ML331's, Krell KAV250's and a few other amps in years past and the Bel Canto did something special that the others simply couldn't, put the musicians right in the room with me. I'm not convinced it's the amp that's the issue (although I'm going to borrow a few from friends and test the theory).

The PS DirectStream DAC is very neutral and if anything tips towards the warmer side. I'm also using it to direct the amps directly (no preamp).

The thing is that I had exactly the same system setup in our old home and the synergy was most definitely there. A different room means that it gets loaded slightly differently (and I am working with adding and subtracting as well as moving acoustic panels and diffusers to tame the room).

Moving the Thiel's out further in the room really made a big difference, but the bass is MIA.