The very best sound: Direct to Disc


Since I got a new cartridge (Clear Audio Virtuoso) i’ve rediscovered the Sheffield and RR Direct Disc albums in my collection.  
Wow! they put everything else to shame.  I picked up about twenty Sheffield D2D’s when Tower Records went out of business for a song (no pun intended.) I’m just now listening to them and find there’s nothing that sonically compares.  They’re just more real sounding than anything else.  Not spectacular but realistic.   
128x128rvpiano
I have a picture of Lewis Armstrong and his band blowing their horns into big plywood horns with the lacquer lath just below. Now that is D2D.!
Dear @mijostyn : I understand that that was the first D2D ever. I can be wrong about but I remember it that way.

R.

A couple weeks back I proselytized, in the thread entitled "Why no interest in reel-to-reel if you’re looking for the ultimate sound?", that Doug Sax had proven in the early-1970’s that a direct-to-disc LP afforded higher sound quality than any tape recording ever made. I suggested buying every direct-to-disc LP you can get your hands on.

The first d-2-d LP I heard of (thanks to JGH), and subsequently heard in 1972, was the second Sheffield (S-10): The Missing Linc by Lincoln Mayorga and Distinguished Collegues (the cream of L.A. studio musicians, including bassist Jerry Scheff---renown for his work with Elvis, Roy Orbison, T Bone Burnett, Richard Thompson, the doors, lots of others---and drummer Jim Keltner---Ry Cooder, Bill Frisell, Randy Newman, Dylan, George Harrison, John Lennon, Brian Wilson, Steely Dan, Eric Clapton, J.J. Cale, many others). The music on the album is imo pretty corny, but the sound is incredible!

The sound of a d-2-d LP is startling "alive": very "immediate", with incredible transient "snap" (as JGH put it) and punch. In comparison, all but the best tape recordings sound veiled, out-of-focus soft, distant, pale, lifeless. The only thing that came close to the shock of hearing a d-2-d LP was hearing an ESL loudspeaker for the first time. And then hearing my first Decca cartridge, whose sound characteristic was uncannily similar to a d-2-d LP.

As I said above, Sheffield S-10 was the label’s second d-2-d LP, and by the time I heard of it the first---S-9---was out of print. It took me years to find a copy, but find one I did. I now have 13 Sheffields, Pop and Classical. Some actually have musical worth ;-) . One thing to be aware of is that Sax sometimes ran more than one lathe at a time (some LP jackets contain cutter info), and some titles were done with more than one complete side take. So different LP pressings can and do contain different takes!

Another point to make is that Doug Sax didn’t invent direct-to-disc recording, he rediscovered it. Prior to the invention of the tape recorder (by German engineers, for the Nazi war effort. The Allies discovered the recorders in the underground bunkers, and brought them back to the U.S.A.), ALL recordings were made direct-to-disc. Remember the scene in O Brother Where Art Thou, when the hillbillies are singing into the "can" in the radio station? Remember the shot of a lacquer being cut in another room as they did? Direct-to-disc.

Other direct-to-disc record companies sprang up in the wake of Sheffield, the most prolific being Crystal Clear. I have 7 CC’s, including those by The Dillards (you’ve seen them as The Darlings on The Andy Griffith Show), Carlos Montoya, Arthur Fiedler, and Virgil Fox (playing a pipe organ, producing a 16Hz tone on the bottom pedal!). Other labels include M & K (L.A. retailer Miller & Kreisel, where Steve McCormack started his hi-fi career), whose title For Duke (loved by HP) once commanded hundreds of dollars (though I got a copy from Brooks Berdan for $75), and even Cardas (The Gregg Smith Singers, pressed at 45RPM).

I wouldn't overestimate the superiority of Direct to Disc records, for example some nice from Shefield Lab is Dave Grusin LP (1976), but his earlier Soundtrack "3 Days of the Condor" on Capitol records (1975) is even better (sonically) and wasn't Direct to Disc. I don't want you to compare youtube videos, compare records instead. 
Just chiming in on a topic that drives us all bonkers for the right reason: the music!
Dear @bdp24 : Now that you named the Virgil Fox by Crystal Clear ( I own it both recordings. ) the Bach organ scores in the D2D M&K recordings could be a little better engineered but in reality is hard to say it.. As I posted before not all D2D has the same top quality sound but the ones that have it are just outstanding and nothing beats it.

""" and drummer Jim Keltner .."""

well the Keltner track in the Sheffield Drum Record is just excellent, impressive and so full of TRUE that even we can’t " believe " exist this quality level sound in LP.

Yes For Duke with Bill Berry is great too. It’s very dificult to say which of so many D2D is the best, maybe could be better to say: the 10 best and that Flamenco Fever with out doubt can be in that list.
Btw, do you own it?

In my posts in this thread I forgot to mention that to listen and appreciate all the unique splendor of D2D recordings we must to listen at a little or not so little higher SPL over our normal SPL we listened. This is an important subject.


""" Doug Sax had proven in the early-1970’s that a direct-to-disc LP afforded higher sound quality than any tape recording ever made. """


no single doubt about ! ! !

If we are MUSIC lovers and like to enjoy it at the higher levels LP recordings can achieve we have to listen at least one of the top D2D through our audio life because with out that you can understand of what quality level we are talking in this thread with this specific subject.

R.
@bdp24 thanks for the history :-) I recently acquired a few of the titles you mentioned ( Fox Vol 1 and 2, Sheffield Test and 6 other D2D for $1.92 each....

The LA 4 disc is a fascinating study of microphone selection and the jacket includes the recording layout as well as EQ settings... that will shock the anti tone control crowd...

One reason many d-2-d LP’s are so musically tepid is the musicians’ fear of making a mistake, which requires scrapping the lacquer and starting anew. The cost of doing that runs into thousands of dollars. That’s why Sax and Mayorga used the best studio musicians, who are used to working under the intense pressure of studio recording, which can be very intimidating to non-studio players. Bands actually break up while making their first recordings, finally hearing what they actually sound like. Such was the case for Russ Kunkel, who went on to become a very successful studio drummer (James Taylor, Carole King, Linda Ronstadt, Carly Simon, Jackson Browne, Stephen Stills, Lyle Lovett, etc.). The other members of the band he moved to L.A. with continued to toil in obscurity.

The Thelma Houston Sheffield is a little brash, some thinking there is overload taking place somewhere in the chain (the cutter head or electronics, the mic pre-amps, or perhaps even the mics). The Sheffield Drum Record suffers no such imperfection; just clean, extremely dynamic drumsets played by Keltner and Elvis’ drummer Ron Tutt. Keltner’s playing is good, but Tutt choked a little. ;-)

I don’t own Flamenco Fever or the L.A. 4 discs, having grown weary of using mediocre music as source material for speaker evaluations before finding copies. Time is too precious to me now to waste on just good sound---I turned 70 last week. Plus, I'm done evaluating loudspeakers.

Dear @bdp24  : Other than me you are the first gentleman with the Sheffield Thelma Houston kind of opinion, for almost any one is one of their favorities D2D recording.

Yes, the Tutt drumer is great too but for some reason I like a little more the Keltner instrument sound especially cymbals but only a preference. Not easy to compare in between those two tracks when both are different kind of improvisation work.

Btw, the Flamenco Fever is not exactly for test speakers or only good sound: that's a misunderstanding because that recording is outstanding at any kind level you can judge it and certainly not a " tepid " as you said or could think.
Seems to me that you was not exposed yet to many  top D2D out there.

Tepid?, between other things I own two way diferent male pianist that were recorded D2D by diferent labels: Dave Grusin and Earl Hines. I don't know other gentlemans but both recordings are evrything you want but tepid.

R.


@rvpiano : Agree. It's a really hard call to said this musician/player or a band when were recorded were: tepid or sound tepid, compared against what? their self in live events or other recordings?

R.

Can we agree they’re all tepid with the possible exception of For Duke and even then we’re not 100%?  😬
Post removed 
I own many but I didn't see Century records and M&K realtime (Miller and Kreisel) in 3ad, they also made direct to disc
Geez guys, I said many d-2-d’s are tepid, not all of them! That’s why I was willing to pay $75 for a Mint copy of For Duke, the most I've ever spent on an LP. In the not tepid column I would include many of the Classical titles. Classical musicians are used to playing entire sides with no overdubs to correct mistakes. Jazz guys too. Have you heard the old joke about mistakes? If you repeat a "wrong" note next time around in the song, it’s no longer a mistake.
Eric - you and I have spent enough time in recording studio to realize what a feat a d2d side represents - nobody nails it perfectly. Yes the Thelma is bright , hot, saturated on spots but in the right parts her voice is monumental:-) 

happy 70th dude - will send you a disc or two - ))) Brother 
Hey @tomic601, good one! That I filed Musselwhite's d-2-d LP (Times Are Gettin' Tougher Than Tough) not in my "audiophile" section, but rather in with the "normal" LP's, proves that I value it not just for sound but for music as well. I found a copy up here in Vancouver for ten bucks, but it's not the cleanest copy. I guess the previous owner wasn't an audiophile. ;-)
One of my favorite records to listen to is: Les Brown and his band of renown Goes Direct To Disc. It was manufactured in West Germany and the label is Century Records. It says limited edition.

I was also wondering if anybody else finds 45 RPM albums to be too noisy?
One of my favorite records to listen to is: Les Brown and his band

Yes I do
excellent also Harry James and his big band-The king James version...very live
I was also wondering if anybody else finds 45 RPM albums to be too noisy?

i’d say you have to be more specific about 45rpm albums. and not all turntables are created equal.

i likely own 95-99% of all the 45rpm albums out there (1500+) produced in the last 25 years, as well as most from earlier eras, and they are very quiet as a group. OTOH since the record is traveling at a higher speed, the lead-in grooves and between cuts will have slightly more ’noise’. but the signal to noise ratio of the musical data is better than 33rpm since there is ’more’ data. the noise recedes farther into the background, more detail and nuance emerges, and more music comes out.

but if your turntable is not quiet (more rumble and flutter or actual motor noise) at 45rpm, which some are not, then, of course, that is what you will hear. obviously the better turntables will be quieter at the higher speed.

and........if you are referring to the 70’s and 80’s 12" singles and ’dance’ re-mix 45’s, those are a crap shoot as the quality is all over the board. many are a mess and noisy. they were generally not mastered and pressed with great care. a few though, are very quiet.
transnova,

Funny you should mention this. I have a few Angel Sonic Series 45rpm’s and all are fairly noisy.. Other discs I have of 45rpm are not.
Dear @bdp24 .""" Keltner’s playing is good, but Tutt choked a little.."""

after your post I posted: """ but for some reason I like a little more the Keltner instrument sound especially cymbals...."""

Over my audio life and with focus in live MUSIC I developed/builded what for me and my friends is a good wide frequency high resolution room/system to achieve the best MUSIC quality I can according my ignorance levels.

Well, yesterday i listened twice my Sheffield Drum Record that I didn’t listen from several months now and I confirm with out doubt what I posted and that the Keltner track is superior to the Ron one that’s good but at the Keltner one.
The Keltner kick drum has an impact as has to be ( I listened at 95dbs level at seat position . ) that the Ron just has not.
In the LP inside page information by the producers says that the Ron goes lower and yes goes a little lower but with out the rigth impact. Down there says too that the snare drum in Ron instrument has an additional microphone and has darker sound than the Kelter snare drum and says too that the Zildjian cymbals in the Ron instrument is sweet than the Kelter ones and any one can hear exactly all those if the system has a wide frequency response and resolution to.

The improvisations in the Keltner work are way alive against the " darkness " in the Ron improvisation track. Where the Ron track is a little more detailed and precise is when he hits the near to center cymbals surface.

I think that the the frequency band response in the Keltner instrument is more equilibrated than the Ron one.

Any one of you that already own this Sheffield recording can confirm what I’m saying here and obviously that could be that I can be wrong but when I posted about was because my memory told me that because in the past I listened this LP very often and was part of my whole test/evaluation self system process.

bdp24, when you can have the time give a listen again.

Btw, the main engineer and lathe operator in the Sheffield D2D LPs were not the same in all the LP’s but different gentlemans.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


I haven't seen Buddy Rich "Class of '78" mentioned. I bought it new when it came out. Blew everything else I had at the time out of the water. Still sounds great today.

Btw, i picked up a sealed copy of The King James Version for 2 bucks at Second & Charles a couple of years ago. 
Eric - Tom at Brooks says hello he cleaned up all the past tech sins on the RM-9.
i agree on Charlie - that dude is the real deal :-) i think ( supposedly ) mint they only go for $20 on Discogs.
i have something in mind to send ya

I think if I had to choose between paying $300 for a D/D or seeing the Artists  live ,I would go see it LIVE.
One of the best sounding D2D recordings I have heard is a recent one of my Canadian friend:
https://www.annebisson.com/en/product/four-seasons-in-jazz-live-at-bernies-2/
Recorded at Bernie Grundman Studios in LA.
I have serial # 2277 and 2274 available  for $ 100 USD including shipping.
info@americanhifi.com
Keltner is playing "jazz" on his solo .... multiple, multiple rythmic and sonic variations on a simple (in this case) rythmic underlay ... both stated and danced around.  Tutt is simply doing what drummers usually do while trying to show off .... all kinds of "sound effects".  You may not think of it that way, but that is why Keltner is so often preferred.
@bdp24  : """  I said many d-2-d’s are tepid, not all of them.  ""

Well, for me makes no sense at all your statement due that all recorded artist were/are professionals ( not roockies/amateur. ) whom play at live events many times in their lifes and a live event is D2D event.

You said " many D-2-D " and only to be congruent with your statement at least let us know 2-3 " tepid " recordings of those " many " you talk about. Could you? Please no " dead silence ".

Thank's in advance.

R.
Dear @harrylavo : Yes, Keltner use additional rythmic instruments and in the other side he and Ron feel the MUSIC in different way or each one recording session mood was what they show up in the LP.

The overall Keltner instrument performs with better top to bottom equilibrium. Something is not exactly " rigth " in the Ron work and the recording producer mentioned it as the differences in between that are important ones.

R.

Keltner plays Paiste cymbals, Tutt A. Zildjians; the two brands sound very different. I played A. Zildjians in my younger years, switching to Paiste 602's in the mid-70's. Keltner is a master at drum tuning, his drums usually sounding great (though live I found his DW's to be too "ringy", LOTS of sustain). Tutt I never heard live, and his drumming with Elvis not to my taste (he's fine in the Roy Orbison tribute show).

Keltner has done far more recording than Tutt, and is a true musical artist, not "just" a drummer. Ry Cooder arranges his recordings around Keltner's availability. And then there was Leon Russell, who didn't care for his drumming. He asked Elton John to dismiss him from the recording sessions for their album together.

Dear @bdp24  : """   is a master at drum tuning, his drums usually sounding great.. """

Thank's. I think that's why I heard what I heard on Keltner track.

"""  and is a true musical artist, not "just" a drummer. """

Yes, his playing " feeling " says the keltner enjoyment of what he is doing and what wants to share through. That cadence and rythm makes a difference, he catch you.

R.

@tomic601, Tom and I really hit it off. I would always gravitate to his workbench when I went into Brooks Berdan, Ltd., where I would watch him find the problem in (often) Jadis amps. He is one of only two guys I would let near a Music Reference amp (the other being clio09). Both of mine (RM-10 Mk.2 & RM-200 MK.2) are unmolested, factory stock. The mods guys would perform on his amps drove Modjeski mad!

About Keltner and Tutt’s drums: in the 70’s (when the Sheffield albums were made) Keltner was playing double-headed (heads on both top and bottom of each drum) Pearl drums, Tutt single-headed (top/batter head only) Ludwigs. So their drum sound could not have been more different. Plus, they used different size sticks, and had different "touches".

Keltner came to Rock/Pop from Jazz, having been born in Tulsa and moving to Pasadena at a young age. His favorite drummer (one of mine too) is Roger Hawkins (The Swampers---the Muscle Shoals studio band, Traffic). To hear the father of Rock ’n’ Roll drumming, listen to Earl Palmer (Little Richard, The Wrecking Crew). I, along with lots of other drummers, used to go see him play live at Chadney’s Steak House in Burbank (which closed in the late-90’s), across the street from the NBC studio where The Tonight Show is taped.

Oh, and perhaps most important of all: Keltner favours metal-shelled snare drums (particularly brass), Tutt wood. Brass is brighter and wetter (more high-frequency ring), wood darker and drier (less ring). Of course, that is effected by the tensioning/tuning of the batter and resonant heads, the tensioning of the snare wires, and the amount of damping applied to the top/batter head, via absorptive pads (as Ringo preferred) or Moon Gel. John Bonham played his Ludwigs wide open (no damping), except for his bass (kick) drum.

To hear the difference between metal and wood-shelled snare drums, compare the snare sound on "The Night They Drove Ol' Dixie Down" to the other tracks on The Band's brown album. To play the press roll on the former, Levon required the sensitivity and "wetness" of his old metal-shell Ludwig Supraphonic (those made prior to 1963 brass, '63 and later aluminum alloy). The wood-shell snare drum that was part of his stage set was too dry/dead to make for a good pr. That drum originally came with gut snare wires (as opposed to more modern metal), which, considering it's sound, it may have still been fitted with. VERY dry.

@bdp24  : All those you posted about Keltner/Ron we can listen clear in the Sheffield recording. Good.

R.
I love the music and performance on the M&K D2D “FOR DUKE” by Bill Berry and his Ellington All Stars
Dear @rvpiano and friends: We are talking of D2D qualityb recording alternative and with out doubt the well recorded ones are in other different league than the LP recordings coming from the R2R.

We all know that exist several labels ( ACT Music, ATR, FIM, Opus3, Stockfish, Clarity, Stereophile, Audioquest, RR, same Sheffield, Wilson, Water Lily, Athena, Levinson, Rega, Propirous, VTL, OMR, etc, etc. ) with great quality recordings that are not D2D recorded and against the well recorded D2D LP’s just can beats it or even it and against the top D2D LPs no contest at all, these ones are just untouchable.

Well in my opinion and first hand experiences exist one tape recorded LP that can be in the same league as the well recorded D2D and this LP is a must to have for any one of us that like top qualityb recording.

The LP comes from Original Master Recording label ( MFSL 004 . ) and was recorded between 1975 and 1977, title: The Power and the Majesty.

It’s the recording of 1940’s steam locomotive and an outstanding live Thunderstorm.
In this track when one drop of the rain hits a window and when rain drops hits the already rainy flor is extremely real as if you was exactly there and one of the thunders too, I said the track is outstanding but this is a misunderstood because there are not words to explain it other than a live/real event: nothing less. Astonishing quality recording for say the least.

Recorded by Brad Miller and the Remote 4/2 channel recording system were designed by Carl Countryman ( totally unknow for me. ) and master laquers by Stan Ricker.

If you can’t own/buy it at least look for a friend that has it and listen it. A high resolution room/system is a must to.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


Dear friends: My mistake: the label is Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs and the recording is an Original Master Recording. 
The recorder Brad Miller was the founder of MoFi label. Here something of his history:


""" 

As a producer and recording engineer Mr. Miller changed the music industry for the better. Brad Miller had two driving passions - sound and quality. If you count yourself as an audiophile, you probably owe Brad Miller some measure of gratitude.

Brad Miller (1939-1998), was an acknowledged master of recording outdoor environmental and man-made machine sounds. He began his career by recording the sounds of steam engine railroad trains as a teenager during the 1950's, releasing LP's on his own Mobile Fidelity Records. In 1965, he founded the Mystic Moods Orchestra (a.k.a. Nature's Mystic Moods), which mixed the sounds of machines and/or the environment with orchestral music. In 1977, he founded the renowned audiophile label Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. He produced music projects through the companies Mobile Fidelity Productions and Mobile Fidelity International Productions. Brad Miller died September 9, 1998. In 1955, Brad recorded the sounds of one of a steam locomotives for the first time. He borrowed his father's Ampro monaural tape recorder along with a crystal microphone, and recorded passing steam trains from the Burbank tower, and at Surf, California where he vacationed with a telegrapher friend. A kind Los Angeles round-house foreman installed a power converter (32 volts DC to 110 AC) so that Brad could make his first cab recording aboard a Southern Pacific #4455 engine.

In the fall of 1957, Brad and a friend named Jim Connella decided to record and release a record album of Southern Pacific steam locomotive sounds. In March, 1958, Mobile Fidelity released album MF-1. They released two more monaural albums before the end of 1958. In September, 1958, Brad traveled through Wyoming, Colorado and Nebraska, recording locomotives while living on hamburgers and sleeping in his car. He had purchased an Ampex 601-2 tape recorder and a pair of Electro-Voice microphones, a battery and an ATR converter. The trip resulted in Highball, MF-4, Mobile Fidelity Record's first stereo album. High Fidelity Magazine praised the album.

While recording the sounds of steam locomotives, Brad had on occasion captured other outdoor sounds. This inspired Brad's idea of expanding the soundstage to give the listener a more panoramic environmental scene. Mobile Fidelity's MF-8, released in September of 1961, was entitled Steam Railroading Under Thundering Skies. As the title implies, the record featured the sounds of locomotives combined with rainstorms. The album was recognized in Billboard Magazine as their "specialty pick of the week".

One night in 1964, a San Francisco disc jockey - Ernie McDaniel of KFOG-FM - played Steam Railroading Under Thundering Skies on one turntable and some music on his other turntable, and broadcast both simultaneously. Listeners responded very favorably, as the station's phones lit up and hundreds of requests to hear the combination flooded the radio station. McDaniel relayed his actions to Brad Miller, and Miller spent three months creating One Stormy Night, the first album of the Mystic Moods Orchestra. Among many other productions with the highly successful Mystic Moods Orchestra, Brad Miller also made two solo "sound-effects" albums in the late 70's and early 80's. The Power and the Majesty and The Power and the Majesty Volume 2 which were both released on Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. """


R.

As some of you may know, Peter Lindemann at Soundsmith has been recording a number of D2D performances on his own cutting rig for some time now and offering them for sale. It's all to support a child welfare charity that he is a part of. You can check them out on his site.
I was fortunate to purchase over 75+ D2D discs, half from wholesalers at $1/disc in the 1980s when CD was driving out LPs. They include many RR, Sheffield, Crystal Clear, Toshiba, RCA and American Gramophone discs. They are generally well recorded. The Japanese discs were generally of Japanese performers but still very enjoyable. The performances often have a hightened presence, an excitement (or anxiety) to create a perfect performance. I find them close to R2R dynamics and sound quality. Just great to hear.