The Truth About Power Cords and there "Real" Price to Performance

Diminishing returns as you climb the money ladder.

Any kind person have a link to where the Master Coupler is $250? Everything I've found searching online appears to be $500 plus and used...

Otherwise intelligent people with too much unearned money will buy a $16,000.00 power cord merely so they can tell their friends, "That power cord cost me $16K." Then, when pressed, they will make up some BS about why such a power cord could possibly be a good value.  None of which would have any real bearing on the cords ability to actually enhance the musical listening experience.

No one has ever conducted a verified A/B double blind test on exotic power cords where the result was any other than inconclusive.  Save some money and stick with the good stock cord the manufacturer provided.

" Well, since the first 25 - 100' or more of cable in your house is most like 12 or 14 gauge solid core romex, shouldn't we just keep it all the same and use more of that? "

There's an old audiophile saying...  " don't think of the power cable as the last few feet... but the first few feet. "

" So I like most of you have to scratch my head and ask where do I begin what brand and product and what should i really pay for it? "

Sometimes you have to look at the measurements and composition of the cords/cables.  Typically, (IME), cables with high capacitance and/or inductance... have deleterious effects on SQ.

I'll also add that sometimes too much of a good thing... can be a bad thing.

After initially liking what I was hearing with my Shunyata investments... I kept going.

After losing most of my midrange, and the treble becoming pinched and thin... the majority of that stuff is in the closet.

" that the price-performance ratio in part depends on what you are connecting the power cord to "

Yup... and at both ends.  It starts at the outlet, (and any power conditioners after it, and before the equipment).

" @blumartini  please update about the friend in Hawaii and his generator.I'm really curious if that would provide clean power "

OMG no!  Way too much EMI and RFI.  Very dirty power... unless you use a PS Audio power regenerator or some form of isolation transformer.

At times I have had to use a gasoline generator to power my house... and my PS Audio Noise Harvesters go berserk.

@atdavid. Well said. 

+ 1 @anotherbob,

I completely missed your post!

Nice thread @blumartini !!!

Here's a link to Jay Luong of Audio Bacon 27 Best Audiophile Power Cables
https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/

@blumartini,

To me, a good power cable/cord is what you can afford and what sounds good to you - in your system. That’s why my first foray into the power cord fray I bought an inexpensive power cord from Mr. Patrick Cullen of CULLEN CABLE for just about the same price points of The Master Coupler - that I never heard of until this evening. Thanks again millercarbon. And speaking of wine - what’s wrong with 2 buck chuck?

The Master Coupler is in effect the Gold Standard of power cords and at about $150-300 is hard to beat especially for someone with upgrades in mind.

bluemartini,

Thanks for the clarification.

anotherbob, I have 2 Cullen cables I will sell at 50p% off

@atdavid

Good point!
lol, I did break down the price point. GK is welcome as long as he plays nice:)

@turnbowm

I don’t believe I called anyone an idiot for having a difference of opinion, quite the contrary!

I am referring to those who are "Disruptive" jumping in looking for a fight, insulting others opinions or questions.

A novel thought would be demonstrating their products actually do what they claim, but sure, break down the price points. GK will get in every thread and spam them anyway.

Greetings All,

I believe that each of you will agree that this idea of segregating systems  at there prospective price points will fuel more fun allowing all to better zero in on your personal systems needs.

I have spoken to various manufactures that would also like to participate as longs a we can be respectful and learn from one another, "Yes" even  manufactures need to keep the ear to the ground to better understand the challenges in the respective market place. I believe it will be interesting what we can learn from each other, them from us and us from them.  

Just a Novel Thought.

Cheers! 

".... I ask that all of you to please be respectful or I will "Hyphenate" you idiotic responses!"

bluemartini,

Does that mean that anyone who posts a differing opinion is an idiot?  

@atdavid  @swanlee5979 

To your point, this thread was never intended to turn into a "Audio Snob Session"!!!

So what I am thinking of doing is separating the groups so everyone can speak to the current system without insulting "Porsche or Toyota" "Cadillac or Chevy" at the end of the day we are all Audio Owners that Love Audio.

FYI to all! I have invited manufactures to chime in and some politely responded that this has never worked out for them for these reasons along with the Kamikaze Nasty Remarks! So in the meantime if this happens I ask that all of you to please be respectful or I will "Hyphenate" you idiotic responses!

I will need your help to do this so please be respectful and courteous :)

My thoughts:

I will start different threads based on your current system dollar amount to keep the cross talk in order. 

Best Price To Performance Power Cords for Systems that range 10K-20K 

Best Price To Performance Power Cords for Systems that range 30K-40K

Best Price To Performance Power Cords for Systems that range 50K-60K

Best Price To Performance Power Cords for Systems that range 60K-80K

Best Price To Performance Power Cords for Systems that range 90K +

Hope it works!

Cheers!



       

Cullen Cable from integrated amp and streamer into a Furman Digital Power Conditioner.  Clear positive change in sound, even to my 63 year old ears.  Relatively inexpensive, too.

When you have base Porsche Cayman owners claiming their base Porsche will blow the doors off a 2020 Supra just because it is a Porsche or that their $2,500,  5 liter capacity Louis Vuitton shoulder bag will carry twice as much as someone else's  $50 dollar, 6 liter capacity shoulder bag, then, perhaps then you would have a valid analogy.

The vast majority of audiophiles, the one's that have 10's of thousands invested in their audio systems are not uber-rich, they are typically middle class, upper-middle class, and lower end of the 1% earners who have decided this is something they want to invest in, same as someone may invest in a high end car, or boat, or ....

What I never ever see is the behavior you claim below with the exception of the odd case of snark against an uber expensive piece of equipment. Buy a $50,000 set of speakers, and all you will get is compliments. Spend $50,000 on room construction and treatments, and you will also get compliments and wows. Ditto for $10K on an amplifier. Heck, even $20K+ on a vinyl setup rarely gets too much of a negative comment, and likely many complimenting how good it looks. Spend $5,000 on a tweak that is hooked up in a system with "average" speakers in an acoustically questionable room, and then claim amazing improvements ... whole different ball game and it has nothing to do with luxury, or financial capability.

The only venom I see w.r.t. uber expensive, but questionable items is straw-man arguments like the one you just made below.

swanlee5979 posts11-14-2019 1:58pmPretty much EVERY category of product has an extremely expensive luxury class of that product type.

It is only in audio I have seen such blatant crude behaviour towards even the existence of such a class in product and those they may be able to afford them.

It would be like a Toyota owners harrasing a Porsche owenr insulting them for buying such a thing cause their Toyota gets them from point A to Point B just like their Porsche.

You could do that analogy with Watches, Handbags, clothes literally any consumer product type.

Why is it only the Audio realm where the venom comes out like this just for the existence of that class of product?

"I discovered that each power cord sounded very different going into the Ayre L-5xe but totally the same going into the LTA. So I reached out to Mark Schneider at LTA to report what I found. He told me that David Berning, who designs the LTA gear, is a power supply specialist above all else and, because of the integrity and quality of the power supply in my LTA amplifier the sonic differences between power cord were negligible. In fact, the stock power cord from LTA sounded just as good as a $1500 cable I compared it to. So, I purchased one of the better performing (and more expensive) cords for my Ayre and another inexpensive cord for the LTA, saving myself several hundred dollars in the process."

Dodgealum,

Putting your money where it does the most good and not overspending where it doesn't is good advice.   

"I have investigated cables for many years and power cable improvement seems differ with the component to which they are attached.
- components with "less-capable" power supplies tend to exhibit more of an improvement
- compared to the same cable when used on amps with massive power supplies, which tend to exhibit less of an improvement"

Williewonka,

That ihas been my experience as well.  I have a Bryston Int. Amp that doesn't seem to care what PC I use to feed it with. Other Bryston Amp owners have voiced the same experience. Robustness in power supply design is an important factor.  

Thank you @Iwin and @blumartini  for the responses.So it seems like a generator supplies a good steady stream of power but requires noise filtering,which I thought it might.I appreciate you taking the time to indulge my curiosity.
I'm wondering if it will be a "thing" someday - audiophile solar generators to power systems.

Pretty much EVERY category of product has an extremely expensive luxury class of that product type.

It is only in audio I have seen such blatant crude behaviour towards even the existence of such a class in product and those they may be able to afford them.

It would be like a Toyota owners harrasing a Porsche owenr insulting them for buying such a thing cause their Toyota gets them from point A to Point B just like their Porsche.

You could do that analogy with Watches, Handbags, clothes literally any consumer product type.

Why is it only the Audio realm where the venom comes out like this just for the existence of that class of product?

@jtcf

In response to your question on gas powered generators.

Aloha BluMartini, I’ve done some A/B comparisons with the p15(A)and my 15 year old Shunyata(B) conditioner. The P15 showed 4% THD and a real choppy sign wave coming in and .3 THD going out with A very clean sign wave. On Kauai we have a combination of Solar power and Diesel generated power. Power supply can be very inconsistent at times so surge protection is mandatory. I have a "whole house surge protecter" on my incoming 200amp line with a dedicated 20amp line to my audio room for audio equipment.
On my amps there seemed to be little or no difference.
On my preamp there was an obvious difference. The highs were more extended cymbals were faster and sounded more real with more air around them. Side to side sound stage got wider probably due to better definition though out the recorded frequency.
But, the best improvement is in the phono stage and CD player. The phono stage (and preamp)plugged into the P15 made an obvious and very positive difference. Soundstage got even wider but also front to back soundstage was way more pronounced. Bass got very tight and was easily identified, verses being somewhat muddy and vague. Drum attacks were more startling. CD player was similar although the depth wasn’t as prevalent. I generally don’t sit and listen to CD’s. I could go on but I got to go to work. Needless to say it was a positive addition to my system.

Dave

Greetings All,

After reading Jay Luong of Audio Bacon;s Review of 27 Best Audiophile Power Cords I must say that I was Impressed! Jay spent several months reviewing each and everyone of them in depth. I must say this guy is the "Navy Seal of Reviewers" !!!

I thought it would be exciting if he would join us so I invited him along with all the companies he reviewed to join us. I dont know if they all will but I am positive most wouldn’t want to chime in :)

The Invite List:
Jay Luong Author of Audio Bacon Website

Atlas Cables

Audioquest

Furutech

Gutwire

High Fidelity Cables

Kimber Kable

NRG Custom Cables

Morrow Audio

Neotech

Nordost

Requisite Audio

Sablon Audio

Snake River

Straight Wire

Triode Wire Labs

TriPoint Audio

Verastarr

Vovox

WireWorld

Hope you can make it!

Best,

BluMartini

@blumartini - unfortunately, your original post failed to identify price vs. performance by component.

I have investigated cables for many years and power cable improvement  seems differ with the component to which they are attached.
- components with "less-capable" power supplies tend to exhibit more of an improvement
- compared to the same cable when used on amps with massive power supplies, which tend to exhibit less of an improvement

e.g. my Schiit Bifrost DAC sounded much better with a Signal Power Cable, which made no improvement when connected to my NAIM amp

So what may appear to a "good" power cable when used on a source component may not be so good for a Power Amp.

Sorry to complicate matters, but Power cables can be pretty fickle

The only commercially available power cable that I believe has the best price/performance ratio is Nordost, because I have heard them make noticeable improvements in a system and they have models at various price points better suited to the different components.

I now make my own, so I stopped looking at the vast amount of offerings now commercially available.

Unfortunately, some companies out there offer products that are not much better than a piece of bulk furutech/oyaide cable with a couple of good connectors attached. These make it difficult for anyone trying to buy a cable that is significantly better

Regards  Steve

There is nothing factual about claiming that humans hear "Principally via that transient" or most of the rest of that paragraph.

While it is true that the initial arrival wavefront is dominant in sound localization, that is primarily due to group-delay/phase based inter-aural processing (difference in what reaches each ear), not in the exact shape of that wavefront. We also give dominance to processing of the initial wavefront and reject echoes and reflections, to a degree, for transient sounds, which gives credence to the importance of transient response. The brain tends to lump the first 35msec of the transient together, so transient has to be put in perspective.

However, to say this is "principally" how we hear, is just not at all supportable. It is not even supportable for localization which includes level cues, frequency cues, etc. which in music can be as important as timing cues. It is just a part of our auditory system for processing threats. Evolutionary changes to support speech and better interpret threats greatly extend what it means to "hear".

teo_audio1,228 posts11-14-2019 8:58amAnd then added in again, on top of that..is,...that humans hear principally via that transient and all complex transient systems...and we define our hearing limits in the small tiny area of perfection of delivery/shaping/levels/timing of those complex transient loads

.

That 10A Skillsaw can draw 60+ amps on startup, and can also draw temporarily when loaded much more than 10A as well.


A large ClassAB, ClassD, or Class A/AB amplifier turned up loud can also pull greater than 15A for a small portion of the AC waveform, though unlike the Skillsaw, the average current won't exceed 15A.

hoghead112 posts11-14-2019 8:43amMy brother is a carpenter and he told me about using lower grade extension cables for power tools and there is a difference when using a higher amperage designed cable vs one that is not. The Skillsaw I was using had more power and came up to speed quicker and felt like it had more torque than a lower grade cable. I have always believed that the start to a better sounding audio system starts with what comes out of the wall socket first. Better cables and noise reduction treatment is the start of a great sounding system, (Crap in, Crap out).

You would think with all that cost of the SR and ET power conditioning units, that they would get rid of almost any noise.

Wow, this has been an excellent thread thus far. I never know where things are headed when I post a thread, its like being blindfolded on a roller coaster ride! I am thankful to all of you who have contributed as we all can always learn no matter how large or small your system is or how much you know or think you know there is always someone who knows more than you! Now as far as the "Kamikaze’s" out there dive bombing with snide remarks and negativity please be more respectful to the group some of us are here to learn.

Thanks again to all.

Cheers!

The transient demand of a power amplifier is much higher than that of the power tool.

Add in, is that the transient demands are all over the map and always happening, and with a veritable infinite number of conditions...with the amplifier.

And then added in again, on top of that..is,...that humans hear principally via that transient and all complex transient systems...and we define our hearing limits in the small tiny area of perfection of delivery/shaping/levels/timing of those complex transient loads.

the above allows one to begin to define the question, so they can begin to shape their understanding why power cords make a difference.

My brother is a carpenter and he told me about using lower grade extension cables for power tools and there is a difference when using a higher amperage designed cable vs one that is not. The Skillsaw I was using had more power and came up to speed quicker and felt like it had more torque than a lower grade cable. I have always believed that the start to a better sounding audio system starts with what comes out of the wall socket first. Better cables and noise reduction treatment is the start of a great sounding system, (Crap in, Crap out). 

For those wondering about using a generator to power their system. I have done it but not on a voluntary basis. We have several power outages every year so I have a whole house generator. During one extended outage a friend and I listened to my system. The incoming voltage was a spot on 120 volts but there was noticeable background noise coming out of my speakers even though my Synergistic Research and Equi-Tech units were being used. The noise was similar to someone in your house  running a blender or mixer and you had no power conditioning being used. It was noticeable in soft music passages or between songs but most music masked it.

In many cases people seek nirvana from the last 6ft powering their systems. As a homeowner, I had a dedicated 20 amp line installed when I first moved in. And while it certainly helped, I can still hear the differences between power conditioners, power cords, interconnects, and speaker cables, so it’s hard for me to wrap my brain around David Bernings power supply negating the many things I’ve done before a components internal (or external) PS. Now, I did replace the Oppo 105 oem POS power supply with an aftermarket toroid based PS from eBay to great improvement, but when I inserted Geoff’s New Dark Matter onto the 105 tray my jaw dropped, much like it did after replacing expensive component iso devices with Machina Dynamica springs, a common sense, and inexpensive answer.to internal and external vibrations

I owned a PSA Premier Power Plant for far too long, buying into the ’regeneration’ hype. I also had several Furmans and BPTs. These days I am using a Core Power 1800, which I am told improves the sound even better with the addition of their new companion, Deep Core, which goes between the wall and the PLC: it could likely improve the potential benefits of a lot of PLCs

Seems a lot of people are raving about the Yeti battery supply with LI-ion battery. I’d like to try one. Also the PPT products that go inside ones electrical panel sound promising (see Agon thread). But that's because I have tried other things taped to the inside door, that to my ears work

As to whose PCs, speaker cables, and interconnects, I have swapped out far too many. I probably have several thousand dollars of cables in the closet, most have little to no resale value. For the past 2 years I have upgraded to WireWorld and am enjoying the best sound to date: seems his mini-series are the best bargains. My point being spending a little more up front (for properly engineered cables) can save thousands in the long run.

hth

The capacity of Humans for self-delusion is apparently unlimited - Mr.Spock

Super-expensive power cords with fancy schmancy dressing. LoL!

Forgive me, no offense. Each to his/her own.

I would rather spend that money on an amp, preamp, source or speakers, or something for my family

I think there is more practical value in dodgealum's post than most other posts in this thread. What you are plugging into is going to make a much bigger difference than anything w.r.t. equipment interactions. Some observations:

• Good shielding is never going to hurt a power cord.
• A good ground between equipment is almost never going to hurt.
• You can make a better ground connection between your equipment with $100 of braided copper strapping and $5.00 of serrated washers than $10,000 of cables.
• A lower resistance AC (line/neutral) connection will result in More EMI
• A lower resistance AC (L/N) connection will likely result in More high frequency noise generated on the DC rails of the equipment
  
• A lower resistance AC (L/N) connection will likely result in less low frequency ripple on the power rails of a power amplifier.
  
• The power supply rails of a low power piece of equipment will probably have less total noise on them with a more resistive AC (L/N) connection.
• A low resistance AC connection (L/N) between your power amplifier and your other equipment will allow the power amplifier to dirty the AC more on your other equipment, than a high resistance between the two (but you want the ground to be low resistance).
• A low resistance (heavier gauge) wire from your main breaker panel to your equipment/power amplifier will reduce the amount of lower frequency AC line noise your power amplifier will generate (where your equipment is) but will increase the high frequency noise.
• There is no guarantee that an engineer/designer at a boutique audio company is highly competent at power supply design or even knows/understands all the points made above.
• If you are wondering where the bottleneck is in your system, it is highly likely that it is your speakers or the room, and maybe your source.

dodgealum1,030 posts11-13-2019 5:09pm

So, what I learned from this experience is that the price-performance ratio depends on more than the cable alone--that the design of what you are plugging into (and probably the quality of the power coming out of your outlet) can alter the performance considerably, skewing the ratio depending on the application.

blainer55,
I've tried to logically make sense of why a power cord would make a difference and agree with you that they shouldn't. The thing is, in my system they do. I've never gone full hog on them but have tried, oyaide, synergistic, acoustic revive, cerious, pangea, cardas, & tributaries (probably forgetting a couple here). They all sound different. From a value standpoint, cerious & synergistic are great. They are very well rounded and clear throughout. Acoustic Revive are the best I've heard (great synergy in my system) to this point. Very transparent but also more expensive. 

Well, since the first 25 - 100' or more of cable in your house is most like 12 or 14 gauge solid core romex, shouldn't we just keep it all the same and use more of that?  Nice conductivity, parallel conductors separated by a bare ground wire, simple!

@millercarbon -- thanks, as usual, for your clear and useful advice; just wish I had read it before buying AZ Tsunami's!

"...a $75,000.00 TROY ELITE NG ground conditioning unit."

There must be a town of Troy somewhere trying to find $75000 in the next year's budget to improve stability of electrical grid.

Power cables are relative to the power gulp required.  

@blumartini  please update about the friend in Hawaii and his generator.I'm really curious if that would provide clean power.

Dodgealum is correct in saying that the entire price point is system dependent. The Denon reciever I have that was born in the early 90's would probably sound pretty bad with (in this case) $1500 interconnects because those cables would be unforgiving in their presentation & would point out every inferiority in my present system. So one can assume the same to be true with power cords, etc. So in my case, my $400 reciever, my $400 equalizer, my $600 CD player are connected by $250 interconnects through $400 speakers to give my ears exactly what they want to hear. I forgot, all powered by a $100 power conditioner 

Power cords matter, but they’re no magic potion. Best way to convince yourself of their worth isn’t to try out a superexpensive one, it’s to try out a really cheap and shoddy one. The falloff in SQ between it and the decently good cord you’re used to will show you  they make a difference. 

Everything you try, components, cables, room treatments, is going to be system or room dependent. Money doesn’t buy top performance. Top performance comes mainly from correct speaker placement and competent sound engineering. Cables can advance things a little, the  same way anything else can, but if you don’t have a lot of money to spend, you’re not missing much from pasing on Odins.

I am always wondering what my system’s’ weak link is. How can one know? That question is worth a thread in itself. If the weak link is your power cords, you’ll think that the mid priced cord you just tried, and that helped a lot, is wildly underpriced. If it isn’t your power cords, you’ll tell yourself the Odin you just tried out is wildly overpriced"

I use unshielded cables from a Lithuanian company (my entire loom). Mid priced. I am delighted with them, though they need some nursing along (de-mag them every second day, and never touch them or move them once you installed them). 

Last point — no point chasing high end, high cost power cord or a power conditioner unless you’ve already spent a couple of hundred dollars on a hospital grade receptacle (Wattgate or Furutech). You would be throwing your money away. Quality of the wall outlet matters huge.

Nelson Pass recommends the stock power cord that ships with his amps. Plain, simple, stock power cord.

I won’t argue with him.