The Truth About Power Cords and there "Real" Price to Performance
This is a journey through real life experiences from you to everyone that cares to educate themselves. I must admit that I was not a believer in power cords and how they affect sound in your system. I from the camp that believed that the speaker provided 75% of the sound signature then your source then components but never the power cord. Until that magic day I along with another highly acclaimed AudioGoner who I will keep anatomist ran through a few cables in quite a few different systems and was "WOWED" at what I heard. That being said cable I know that I am not the only believer and that is why there are so many power cord/cable companies out there that range from $50 to 20-30 thousand dollars and above. So I like most of you have to scratch my head and ask where do I begin what brand and product and what should i really pay for it?
The purpose of this discussion to get some honest feed back on Price to Performance from you the end user to us here in the community.
Not to rain on your parade, but if your test had been made blind, i.e. you had no clue what cord was attached at any point in time, your test would have validity. You may think you have superhuman hearing, but you could have just as easily proved confirmation bias as you did sound differences.
@turnbowm - which Bryston do you have? - I have the B135 integrated - great value and quality.
I find your approach is very sound (’scuse the pun)...
So, I purchased one of the better performing (and more expensive) cords for my Ayre and another inexpensive cord for the LTA, saving myself several hundred dollars in the process."
And for components of the quality level of Bryston and LTA, one would need the very best power cables to achieve discernible improvements and that equates to $$$
My experience has been that (most) all components will benefit from a better power cable.
Since I make my own cables that use a Helix cable geometry (i.e. I do not simply add connectors to bulk cable) and I use them on all my components, so I did not even try the stock power cable that came with my Bryston. - But it looked pretty standard, so I do believe it would impact the overall sound - to some extent.
Selection of "the right cable" is the challenge and most of the brands out there are not up to this task.
One brand I do regard as "worthy" for amps of this quality is Nordost. - Even so, I would probably select one of their higher end models.
As always, it all depends on how much one is willing to spend on this insane hobby.
I would like to thank blumartini for inviting me to participate in this "so far" civil discussion. I rarely, if ever, participate in discussions like this since some "experts" cannot (or refuse to) understand how power cables can make a "difference" in sound quality.
As I perused through the responses, I noticed quite a few assumptions & opinions that, IMHO, are inaccurate, such as "Good Shielding is never going to hurt a power cord"... yes, good shielding but not "traditional shielding"... Traditional shielding, that most cable manufacturers choose to use, is detrimental to sound reproduction. It adds capacitance to the cable, which results in a duller, lifeless, less dynamic power cable... I would never use traditional shielding in Triode Wire Labs products for that reason. Some innovative methods of obtaining a great sounding cable can involve advanced cable geometry, use of piezoelectrics as well as advanced shielding materials that do not add capacitance to a cable...
Everything makes a difference. Yes, that is true... Yes, the receptacle you connect your power cables to can make a noticeable difference. (Please note I wrote "difference" not "Improvement").
Power cables can make a significant difference and "improvement" in sound quality. Recently (two weeks ago), I participated in FIVE rooms at the Capital AudioFest, providing the entire cable looms. I partnered with manufacturers & distributors, such as Vinnie Rossi, Gigawatt, Innuos, Daedalus Audio, Volti Audio, BorderPatrol, PI AudioGroup, Esoteric, QLN, Well Pleased A/V, GT Audio Works, Sound Insights, Pass Labs, etc. In the large Frederick Room, we had Pass Labs "best" gear... XS-150 mono blocks ($65K), XS preamp ($38K) & XS phono preamp ($45K)... Yes, placing my power cords on the Pass Labs gear made a significant improvement in sound quality... I did have the opportunity to "A-B" test the XS phono preamp in my "test set-up" at my Lab and the results were similar to many other preamps I tested. Yes, power cables can make an "improvement" in sound quality.
I'd like to also add that Triode Wire Labs offers a 30-day trial period, money-back guarantee on all its cable products... I believe blumartini stated that only one manufacturer offered that...
As far as my top of the line "Obsession NCF" power cable (6 ft. - $1399), I'd like to point out that it uses the expensive ($385 each connector ($770 of connectors per cable)) & incredible sounding Furutech FI-50 NCF series of connectors. The "Obsession NCF" competes with and exceeds performance of cables costing multiple times as much... money-back guarantee! Here's Jay's review... https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/15/
In all of Triode Wire Labs products, there's exceptional value, since all TWL's products are directly-marketed with very low overhead costs.
I'd like to thank Jay Luong for his incredible review of power cables, which much have been very exhausting... and to blumartini once again for inviting me to provide my $0.02...
You have "mains feed" into your breaker or fuse box at your listening location.
From there, you have a breaker or fuse that protects the circuit. That breaker or circuit is sized according to the amperage of the circuit you will run off that breaker.
The AWG wire sizes I listed are the minimum electrical code standards for circuits of the listed amperage. There is potentially a very LONG run of Romex that goes from that breaker / fuse box to your AC outlet. Then you have the outlet itself. (I recommend a hospital grade outlet simply because they are robust and grip your cord tightly.)
Thinking that the last six feet of wiring after the outlet makes a difference after all of that...and thinking you can hear a difference...is crazy - unless the cable is doing something other than just transmitting the power (such as a choke / filter or power conditioning system).
Things like a Furman, PanaMax or Monster cable power conditioner DO make a difference...because they have filters and chokes that CLEAN the power. An Emotiva CMX-2 DOES make a difference because it filters and eliminates DC offset.
Silver cords, braided cords, excessively oversized cords, etc. don't do a darn thing that is audible unless they have a choke or filter in the cable.
A cord that is too small for the current draw will actually get hot and be a safety hazard.
Imagine if I made two cords to prove my point that have the following construction:
3 feet of 12AWG Romex that plugs into your wall outlet with a Marinco or Wattgate plug...or even wired directly to your mains box.
The other end of that Romex would go into a junction box. Inside that junction box will be a Marinco or Wattgate 3 prong plug that plugs into a hospital grade outlet (which is wired to the Romex) and coming out of that box would be 3 feet of a fancy twisted pair, cryo treated silver conductor, blah blah blah cord that terminates in an IEC plug that goes into your gear.
The second box would be Romex all-the way. Same junction box. Same plugs. Same outlet. Just 6 total feet 12AWG Romex all the way to your gear.
Are any of you willing to tell me you could hear a difference? Because that is how your house is wired.
I am confident nobody could not pass an A:B comparison noticing any difference with any consistency.
JS: Unearned money can be from a number of sources...inheritance for instance.
MAM says:
I began with the CD (OPPO-105) connected to my power conditioner using the stock cord. The sound was unlistenable.
I have an OPPO-105 and I use the stork cord. I have never, not even once, thought it put out audio that was unlistenable. At one time the 105 was the most popular disc player on the market...tested with a stock cord. My, your ears must be very picky....or a fan of high dollar accessories. Confirmation bias?
The entire setup with the Pass XS gear feeding the GT Audioworks speakers were all Triode Wire Labs obsession power chords on the amps and TWL speaker cables and interconnects - this resulted in the best sound at show- don’t believe me read Herb Reichert’s review on Stereophile where he said that this system can go toe to toe with cost no object systems. Thanks Pete great product at an unbeatable value in all of high-end audio.
Of course, that had nothing to do with the GT audioworks speakers working reasonably well in typically awful trade-show rooms, nor the designer undertstanding how to get the most out of his speakers in that situation .. nor all the other good quality components?
Best of show is like having a least ugly dog show. You have different grades of awful and best sound is far more indicative of a particular speakers interaction with a room, and/or how much effort the exhibitor is willing to put into ad-hoc room treatments. I have heard $250K+ systems sound awful at shows, and $20K systems sound stunning.
dimora, Did you know the instaneous voltage drop on a 50 foot run of 12awg can reach 3-4 volts when you get the 30+ amp peaks of some power amplifiers? You had not mentioned whether you were discussing cords or house wiring at that point as well, and you have brought up the other wire as well.
More critical to the gauge of the wire in the cords would be quality of the equipment to equipment ground connections. There has also been real evidence of noise on AC lines coupling into signal lines in "typical" audio setups, so shielding also makes sense.
You will note I have not said either way that cords can or cannot produce audible differences, but long runs of Romex can in amplifiers depending on how well their power supplies are designed, and it is a poor assumption that boutique audio amplifiers and other equipment is well designed.
We’re talking cords AND house wiring - as they are all part of the same feed line into one’s gear - unless you use batteries or other gear as I previously mentioned (like a power conditioner, caps, batteries, transformers, chokes, etc.)
Most people cannot control the house wiring. Most folks are running their systems on a 15A circuit with ~50 feet of 14AWG Romex copper. That same circuit for most also powers a bunch of lights, ceiling fans and AC outlets that your significant other might plug a vacuum cleaner into.
I have dedicated 12AWG Romex runs to all of my audio gear with 20A breakers (modern code requires AFCI and GFCI, so I run CAFCI (AFCI/GFCI all-in-one).
So do any of you think that a 99.999% pure silver braided, shielded, twisted, cold-press or silver soldered-in-an-argon-chamber, oxygen free / techflex-skinned, 3M heatshrink covered cable on elevators made from African Panke-baobab-wood harvested by bearded millennial vegan artisans from 2400 year-old trees is going to make an audible difference going that last 6-10 feet from your A/C wall outlet into your gear’s IEC port?
Farther up on this thread or maybe another I have expressed my views on "cords". I think you will find my views often similar to yours but more nuanced.
I have two runs of heavy gauge to a split outlet, same phase for both with grounds tied. Predates ACFI/GFCI. Was discussing on another thread. I can't even get the type of breaker I used any more.
Silver wire, etc , is marketing, hence why no validated testing. Heavy ground, heavy gauge for amps, good shielding all beneficial ... Most of the time. For some equipment, arguably, resistance helps .... less AC noise and EMI.
Equipment to equipment grounds are arguably most critical and there are much cheaper ways of fixing that. If someone puts heavy capacitance from DC circuit ground to chassis ground, then things get dicey.
"
So do any of you think that a 99.999% pure silver braided, shielded, twisted, cold-press or silver soldered-in-an-argon-chamber, oxygen free / techflex-skinned, 3M heatshrink covered cable on elevators made from African Panke-baobab-wood harvested by bearded millennial vegan artisans from 2400 year-old trees is going to make an audible difference going that last 6-10 feet from your A/C wall outlet into your gear’s IEC port?"
I have been using Triode Wire Labs cables for several years simply because they are the best sounding cables my system has ever known. They are exceptionally well made and Pete has always been a pleasure to deal with. Great sound and tremendous value, it is no surprise these cables are now being part of the finest systems assembled. A must try. PS: if someone still thinks there is no such thing as great sounding cables and poor sounding cables I suggest they reconsider their devotion to this hobby... save your money and enjoy your car radio. Just my 2 cents.
“In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas—he's the controller—and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.[1]” - Richard Feynman
Feynman cautioned that to avoid becoming cargo cult scientists, researchers must avoid fooling themselves, be willing to question and doubt their own theories and their own results, and investigate possible flaws in a theory or an experiment. He recommended that researchers adopt an unusually high level of honesty which is rarely encountered in everyday life, and gave examples from advertising, politics, andpsychologyto illustrate the everyday dishonesty which should be unacceptable in science.
I posted this on another thread, on another forum. It’s not perfectly accurate but accurate enough for folks to get the gist of what is going on re hearing vs measurements:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It’s not that we hear out to 20khz, it is the 17,500-23,500 cilia in the ear, and how they move in a complex inter related 3-D dance of motion, over time, how each responds with the firing of a neuron, over time. Imagine that many click channels, where each motion of any kind, causes a click in each, and then each click is inter-related to the other clicks, individually and cumulatively. And then analyzed as a record, over time and decoded over time, in the minutia, by the neural components that are tied to the hearing mechanism. What I mean is that they are physically related in motion, and thus interrelated physically, in the generation of a ’click’ (neural signal firing)
So the inter-relations, easily get into the complex microsecond level flowing relations. They are all time related (firing order, and cycling) to one another in the neural analysis, in the absolute sense. There is a fluid in there, in a sac, one might say and we get traveling waves in it and in the sac surface, and the cilia are activated according to the flow patterns on what you might think of as a balloon, with the cilia inside it. So, yes, 3d flow patterns in a fluid sac, over time, with hairs throughout it, like a set of hair/fibers. Neurally connected hairs. About 20k of them. The number of ways that a signal can be created via a physical distortion impinging upon that .....is stupidly high. Crazy high. Incalculably high.
It’s got nothing whatsoever to do with sine wave signals from a signal generator, or what not. That idea is a thousand fold, a million fold joke... compared to the power and fine signal generation within and subsequent analysis capacity of the human ear.
We don’t have any hardware available to us that can come close to that level of auditory or electrical signal fine analysis.
Then we get to the question of physical ability through individual physical build. That we are all different than one another and this hearing function follows the same path as IQ differentials across a set of individuals. Some extreme ear capacities vs ..uhm..not so good hearing capacities.
we can lose the ability to hear out to 20khz, but retain the ability to hear microsecond timing differentials in complex waveforms, as that is the basic function of the ear design that is there, if there is any decent hearing function quality left at all (aged ears). Then, we’ve got TWO of them, also inter-related. The ear is an extreme machine, undoubtedly so.
Essentially, there is no delusion. None.
You hear what you hear and the hardware utilized to try and analyze that, is woefully deficient, as is the current engineering mindset involved in the measuring.
One can argue the validity and usefulness of what is heard. But that the ear is superior to the mindset of measuring, at this time? This is not even remotely debatable, for an educated (on this subject) mind.
Holy Guacamole! No sooner do I mention Cargo Cultists one of them shows up! Wow! Was that a coinkidink or what? Deprogrammers are standing by. You have to love it when someone says something is “not even remotely debatable for an educated mind.” Isn’t that some sort of tip-off?
You are trying to take complex things that happen in 3 dimensional sound field that is time variant and apply that to an simple electrical signal with absolutely no proof of the claims you effectively make about said electrical signal
A two channel initially mechanical system, i.e. the ear, with a 20khz bandwidth, if you are lucky, can detect microsecond timing differentials ... Just like two microphones with a 20khz bandwidth digitized at 44.1Khz can resolve microsecond time of arrival differences. This is very well understood and done day in and day out with all manner of signals. There is no magic, there is no unknown branch of physics not yet understood, and even if we don’t understand all the neural pathways that does not change the fact that our hearing starts as a mechanical system that has not been shown to extend in bandwidth past 20Khz. Even experiments that indicated potential detection of ultrasonics were not able to show ultimately that it was not subharmonic resonances that were detected.
Your statement about us not having the hardware for electrical fine signal analysis required for human acoustic testing is simply not supportable. That claim is based on misunderstandings and knowledge gaps such as the belief that 44.1Khz (or 192Khz) digitization cannot carry within subsample, microsecond timing information. It can, within the bandwidth of the hearing system. Couple a flawed understanding of digitized and reconstructed analog signals and the information they carry and the potential for a bandwidth limited system to provide detection capability much faster than that bandwidth and you get the statements below which are not based in facts nor supportable with anything passing for evidence.
We don’t have any hardware available to us that can come close to that level of auditory or electrical signal fine analysis.
I used one one for years without worry. It looks like a disaster ready to happen, but if you have a child/pet free environment, it works. Naturally YMMV.
Reality, if there were problems with this cord, I would think Pierre would have taken it off the site years ago.
The clear,candy wrapper insulation was getting beat up, and the scotch tape repairs became too much.
Speaking with a Mapleshade guy years ago, he said Pierre prefers them WITHOUT the insulation! Now that's freakin manly!!
Now... as another example, (on a smaller scale), let’s look at phono cartridge tweaking. Most phono preamps have/allow for changing capacitors and resistors... either manually or by knobs/switches... that affect the frequency response of the cartridge.
Using the same basic understanding and principals... some companies may use different gauges of wire... different dialectric insulators... different metals... and different sheilding, to manipulate electrons of a power cord, (or interconnect or speaker cable), to a sound that they prefer.
Some individuals will prefer this "house sound" , while others won’t... and even others won’t hear a difference due to ear shape, or ear damage.
While I have no foundational argument for what I am about to say... I might even suggest that using the above mentioned methods might even cause a phase shift... with the end result requiring a speaker placement change.
And no... I’m not smoking or drinking anything. Just a theory based on subtle changes and experimentation with my setup.
"@turnbowm - which Bryston do you have? - I have the B135 integrated - great value and quality....
....And for components of the quality level of Bryston and LTA, one would need the very best power cables to achieve discernible improvements and that equates to $$$"
In answer to your question, I have the Bryston B60R which I have enjoyed for 19 years. I have tried various audiophile power cables in the past but the B60R doesn't seem to care one way or the other. Perhaps the robustness of the power supplies in Bryston amps explains their indifference.
I can't anwer that specifically... but there was a definite change in frequency response. Only way I can describe it, is that the highs went super airy to the point they were piercing... and the vocal range disappeared almost to the point of being inaudible.
Would it have gotten better if I left it in longer? Don't know... I didn't wait to find out.
I should add that it was the original Venom from a few years back. It's been sitting around collecting dust because I was having a hard time finding a good spot for it.
During some recent interconnect and PC changes... I tried it on the Oppo. Yuck!!!
At this point it's gonna get Ebayed or traded in to the Cable Co towards another purchase.
Where’s the Atlanta guy with the listening challenge? I’m game. I’ve got an all-mechanical A:B switchbox I built with identical headphone amps that can A:B a pair of Oppos with whatever cords you want to battle. Level match with 1KHz test tone and VOILA! I’ll prove that nobody can hear a difference (consistently) between properly gauged power cords.
My Opps is a stock BDP-103. All we need is a second one and we’ve got a test rig.
My buddy has a PHD in statistics; I’ll have him assist me to build a test matrix that is scientifically valid.
Who in Atlanta who thinks they can hear a difference is game to prove it?
I agree with you on the difference of power cords make on my system a few Kimber cables that cost between three and five hundred bucks I really don't want to spend more on it because I have this fear that you are dealing with the laws of diminishing returns very expensive power cords to me are not going to sound 10 times better than a three or four hundred dollar power cord
AtDavid and Dimora , Mi Casa es Su Casa for anything HiFi related. Its no trick of marketing , Im not smart enough for that. I’m sick of hearing this back and forth perpetual argument. I want to abolish it. I just offered anyone lets do this .. did you see how much interest there was in stopping the argument and getting to the bottom of it. ? Clearly nobody will come from overseas, that never crossed my mind. So you 2 are perfect, you guys dont know me and I will state for the record I dont think I know either of you, but based on moniker I dont know you guys.. So do either of you two have any $1000 plus power cords ? if so , we’ve got a shootout. If not, then you two are Audiogon forum users that can represent the AG Group for this thread. Keep in mind, I am a straight shooter. if something sounds better than my cable I will acknowledge it, furthermore if we become friends while you are here you must maintain an honest opinion even if you think Im a great guy and the other cable sounds better. Now if there is no $1K plus cable you can bring, then I need to know if you each are power cord believers or not, if you are , then come over any ways and we can listen to 3D Holographic imaging. Its a good reference point from which to judge other rigs, and its always fun for me to experience it in other peoples rigs because it is elusive. If you dont know what you think or better yet are a non believer that is OK with being converted to believer (if its truly heard) then come on over and Ill prove power cords work an a big way. There are some folks not willing to be converted , and that bias makes a closed mind, so its futile at that point. Every Friday is HiFi Fridays around here. I am in Smyrna by the new Battery Park if you google my username or just go to my username.com youll find my phone number to call and chat..
I am there for work every 8 weeks approximately, but no guarantees on a Friday. I am certainly in. I don't think it matters if me or Dimora is a believer or not, as long as you are. If you can pick your cables out blind (or between a basic shielded cable and yours) then you have proved they make a difference.
I have been using Triode Wire Labs cables for several years simply because they are the best sounding cables my system has ever known. They are exceptionally well made and Pete has always been a pleasure to deal with. Great sound and tremendous value, it is no surprise these cables are now being part of the finest systems assembled.
I use the same 10awg Western Electric wire that Pete uses for his American Series power cords and speaker cables. The cost is nowhere near what many here pay for cords and I agree with you that the sound is good. Some believe simple Romex makes a good power conductor based on its uniform geometry (although it would not meet electrical codes if used as a power cord from the wall outlet to the equipment iec).
As a mature engineer, vintage component lover, and a recent member of Audiogon - I am very skeptical about the actual benefits of the host of fancy, expensive power and speaker cords out there. The first thing I notice about the ads and write ups for these devices is the lack of any hard technical performance data - such as improvements in distortion, frequency response, damping factor and noise levels.
I realize that technical performance specs do not tell the "whole story" in evaluating great, natural sound - but a technical explanation of how a particular power or speaker cable actually works to produce better sound over a "stock" unshielded cable is almost always lacking. Instead, there are elaborate descriptions and diagrams of cable construction and materials - purely subjective evaluations of the resulting sonic improvement - and glowing praise for the expertise of the cable "designer".
As an example, I am the proud owner of a highly coveted Marantz Model 7 tube preamplifier, which was originally fitted by Marantz with a heavy, but otherwise standard power cable. I cannot imagine how the impeccable performance of this unit could possibly be degraded by the absence of a "high end" power cord.
The "Instruction Manual" for my Model 7, written by Marantz engineers Sid Smith and Dick Sequerra, states the following: "Ordinary 18 gauge lamp cord may be used for connection between an amplifier and loudspeaker if the distance is short. If more than 25 or 30 feet is required, it would be advisable to use a heavier gauge to reduce power loss and damping factor deterioration".
So my question to you all is simply this: If some of the best audio designers in history were completely satisfied with using "ordinary" power and speaker cables with their superlative equipment - why are we now becoming obsessed with all these "bells and whistles" cables - and spending many thousands of dollars for them? Don't we need more hard "scientific" data explaining what actually makes these "fancy" cables sound "better"? I personally, will stick by the recommendations of Mr. Smith and Mr. Sequerra!
Vinylguy2016 As an example, I am the proud owner of a highly coveted Marantz Model 7 tube preamplifier, which was originally fitted by Marantz with a heavy, but otherwise standard power cable. I cannot imagine how the impeccable performance of this unit could possibly be degraded by the absence of a "high end" power cord.
As a mature engineer, vintage component lover, and a recent member of Audiogon - I am very skeptical about the actual benefits of the host of fancy, expensive power and speaker cords out there ... Don’t we need more hard "scientific" data explaining what actually makes these "fancy" cables sound "better"? I personally, will stick by the recommendations of Mr. Smith and Mr. Sequerra!
A great many audiophiles rely on their own listening tests to make decisions about things such as cables, so I don’t think "we" require more scientific data. Of course it’s fine if your preference is to review data before listening.
Have you ever auditioned what you call "fancy" cables? You’d be a good test subject; because of your skepticism, you wouldn’t suffer from positive confirmation bias.
Many adopters of better cables started as a skeptic, just like yourself.
Being an engineer (EE) with 30+ years of experience in the industry, I understand where you're coming from. During listening tests of audio cables (speaker & interconnects), however, I found audible differences which can be explained by examination of material
(conductor & insulator)
properties and design differences (coaxial, twisted pair, etc.).
In the case of power cables, however, I have yet to find discernible differences between audiophile PCs and generic ones of equivalent gauge. IMHO, there is no benefit in using expensive, after-market PCs on equipment with properly designed power supplies. I believe that Bryston and Pass Labs are of the same opinion.
Being
an engineer (EE) with 30+ years of experience in the industry, I
understand where you're coming from. During listening tests of audio
cables (speaker & interconnects), however, I found audible
differences which can be explained by examination of material
(conductor & insulator)
properties and design differences (coaxial, twisted pair, etc.).
You are correct. I was in the electronics industry, not audio. However, music and the equipment that provides it has been my passion for even longer. My engineering background comes into play when making any and all decisions related to audio.
"If you are able to relate the sonic differences to cable construction, I would assume you can relate that to measurable engineering quantities?"
atdavid,
Absolutely. I have found, for example, that low inductance is a desirable characteristic in speaker cables. On the other hand, low capacitance seems to be the key for interconnects.
Is there any scientific reasoning behind your choice of audio cables?
I would be very surprised if anyone who makes cables or power cords in the last 30 years ever said high capacitance or high inductance were virtues. I guess what I’m saying is what else is new? But surely we can agree there are other desirable cable and power cord characteristics. Please don’t tell me it all comes down to L, R, C. That horse has been beat to death.
I don't mean generically, I mean can you put some numbers to this characteristics? I.e. at what inductance does a speaker cable start to matter? At what capacitance does an interconnect start to matter?
turnbowm43 posts11-19-2019 6:51pm"If
you are able to relate the sonic differences to cable construction, I
would assume you can relate that to measurable engineering quantities?"
atdavid,
Absolutely.
I have found, for example, that low inductance is a desirable
characteristic in speaker cables. On the other hand, low capacitance
seems to be the key for interconnects.
Is there any scientific reasoning behind your choice of audio cables?
"I would be very surprised if anyone in the last 30 years ever said high capacitance or high inductance were virtues. So, I guess what I’m saying is what else is new? But surely we can agree there are other desirable cable and power cord characteristics. Please don’t tell me it all comes down to L, R, C. That horse has been beat to death."
GK,
I never said that "it all comes down to L,R and C." Material (conductor & insulator) properties and cable design are important factors, as previously mentioned.
Very good shielding primarily on interconnects, and a properly connected shield and good connectors to ensure a proper connection. With the exception of a decade plus ago on a cable that intentionally colored the sound, I have never detected capacitance that would be impactful to sound in my components. As capacitance is so low, dielectric absorption becomes a non-issue, and since interconnects are no impedance matched, not worried about that either.
For speakers, heavy gauge with intertwined connectors mainly for shielding, though I have never perceived an issue. Again, not really worried about inductance as any cable inductance is buried in the noise floor of component values in the speaker. I did accidentally make a speaker cable with wickedly high capacitance that made an amplifier unstable, but that would not have been considered normal construction.
Now about those values of capacitance and inductance where they become an issue?
"Now about those values of capacitance and inductance where they become an issue?"
atdavid,
There are no specific values/limits for inductance and capacitance because of variables in the application. Your experience with amplifier instability using high capacitance speaker cables is a perfect example.
My preference for low inductance in speaker cables and low capacitance in interconnects is based on numerous listening sessions. There are other considerations, but these are my primary ones.
Your experience with amplifier instability using high capacitance speaker cables is a perfect example.
Also in the analog world, amp does not go from "working perfectly" to "instability" just like that like 1's and 0's. There is a transitional curve and during being on this curve, the amp sound quality will change before instability sets in. So by simple logic, the amp + speaker combination will affect the sound as the cable capacitance gradually changes. It's not something that happens abruptly, like a 90 degree cliff.
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