The Shure V15 V with a Jico SAS/B stylus VS The Soundsmith Hyperion MR and Lyra Atlas SL

In its day the Shure V15 was just an average cartridge. Many better cartridges were available. Dynavector and Grado come to mind.

What Russ said. At the risk of diverting the subject, I’d add ADC, Grace, and B&O, certain models of each brand. I owned a V15 Type III and quickly moved on from it. 

@lewm I'm not sure which V15 I owned. I had just sold my Thorens TD124 and was using a Sony belt drive with an SME on it. Free from rumble at last. Cartridges usually did not last more than a year for me. After the Shure there was a Stanton and then a B+O which I kept through collage. 

I bought the Shure V15-4 body and a new Jico SAS with the boron cantilever.  I love it!  My Rock records really sing, and it was just the presentation I was looking for.  I like it much better than my ZU/Denon DL103 which cost me $600.00 back in 2010.  It is also better than my Audio Technica VM540 MM cartridge.

@russ69 I'm talking back in 1964 when the V15 was released. It had very little if any serious competition at the time. My father was still using an ESL cartridge at 5 grams. 

ADC XLM and its siblings were very serious competitors with Shure in the mid 60s. I far preferred the XLM.

I hope you didn't spend a lot on your collage education

@russ69 I'm talking back in 1964 when the V15 was released. It had very little if any serious competition at the time.

Your title says Shure V15 V. That was released in 1984. Not sure what a V15  sounded like in 1964 I was only 10 years old. I remember the Stanton 681 EE being a competitor to the Shure.

My first memorable cartridge was a Win Labs Strain gauge in an Infinity Black Widow arm. That was around 1975 I think.

@russ69 Actually it was 1982 when the V was released. The V MR may have been 84. Walter Stanton invented the removable stylus. The 681 EE was a little later 1968, but the 681 dates back to the late 40s! I liked the EE very much. I had one somewhere in there. I still have the brush in my parts collection. I always took them off. I also had a Win Labs Strain Gauge.....for two months. It came out in 1976-77. I got rid of it quickly. It's tracking ability was terrible. I also hate to tell you this, but the Infinity Black Widow was way too lite for it. It was way too lite for just about everything except cartridges like the V15 and the Stanton. Following the release of the Syrinx PU3 the focus became rigidity and not super low mass. I was running an LP12 with an SME arm on it at the time.

@lewm The TD124 that I bought used had a wooden ADC Pritchard arm on it. It had the sloppiest head shell and could not hold azimuth. I hated it and got my first SME in short order. I think it permanently damaged ADC's reputation for me, but some of their cartridges where highly rated.

@macg19 Actually, your parents paid for it and medical school after that. (Federal Taxes)

@macg19 Actually, your parents paid for it and medical school after that. (Federal Taxes)

Ouch!

I bought a VxMR in, I think, 2006 and enjoyed it for some years on a Planar 3 as my way back into vinyl. Table and cartridge were given away when I moved house. Curiously, I gave away with them a Copland 301 pre-amp, a YBA 1 power amp, and the DCM TimeFrame speakers. Eventually, all except the table and cartridge came back to me, probably due to WAF preferring smaller and neater units that sounded far worse. You can lead a horse to water.....*

*RIP my old neighbour who modified that saying: You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.

I also hate to tell you this, but the Infinity Black Widow was way too lite for it.

I tracked it at 2.5 grams, had no trouble with it. It played warped records well.

Actually, your parents paid for it and medical school after that. (Federal Taxes)

Unless you went to school in England, they did not:)

@mijostyn You really need to track it a bit heavier- 1.5 helps it a lot. Also, loading it is paramount or it can be a bit in your face like any MM cartridge. If you don't load a MM cartridge, you really don't get to hear what they are about.

If your stylus is good and the suspension not perished, I'd start with about a 22K load and work your way down until the harshness bit is gone, but no loss of higher frequencies. If it seems rolled off, 22KOhms might be too low a load.

Or you can use this calculator which uses a different technique. Since the inductance of your cartridge is 500mH the real variable is the capacitance of your tonearm cable. You can see the results in the graph; obviously a 100pf load (which is very close to many low capacitance phono cables if they are only 1 meter in length) is nearly ideal.

@macg19 It is called a public health service scholarship. The Feds paid for everything.

@atmasphere OK I'm game. The phono section has the typical 47K input impedance. There are no facilities for loading or capacitance. So, if I put 47k resistors across the input jacks that would do it yes? I'll try 1.5 grams although it was not having any trouble at 1.2.   

@mijostyn Yeah, Shure claimed 1.2 gr was OK, but IME it isn't. Back then a number of cartridge manufacturers were in a bit of a competition to see who could get to the lowest tracking pressure, as they all seemed to think that was the major component to record wear, when the real culprit was clumsy tonearms.

I would try 22K across the input, so the total load is actually about 15K.

@atmasphere OK, I ordered two 22k Vishay resistors. 

@mijostyn :  of course you have to try about and it's interesting to read this review:

 

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/shure/v15.shtml

V-MR test report ( 1984 ).

Btw, are you hearing a kind of harshness in your cartridge today set up?

 

R.

I mean " then back to the Shure " .

@mijostyn Dude, you do know I was just messin' with you, right? 

 

atmasphere

11,760 posts

10-05-2024 at 07:53am 

@mijostyn Yeah, Shure claimed 1.2 gr was OK, but IME it isn't. 

Disagree.

I ran Shure V15vmr and V15vxmr at 1.15g which was the optimum in both an Eminent Technology ET2 and Dynavector 501. That is with the stabiliser brush removed. Both of these arms had eddy current damping in the horizontal plane.

More important was capacitive loading - the recommended loading being 250-300pf. Under 250 bright, over 300 lowers the hf response.

Can't see how resistive loading will have any impact on a MM unless your preamp has some sort of resonance at 47k/250pf that you needed to obviate.

Unfortunately the Shure V15's sounded horrible in many other arms I tried, including Naim Aro, various SME's, Alphason and a few others I can't remember.

 

 

@mijostyn  : Electrically this's the FR response loaded at 22k:

 

https://alignmentprotractor.com/cartridge-loading-calculator?ind=500&indunit=1000&cartres=2500&cap=250&preres=22&preresunit=1000&grid=stat&range=sonic&scale=log&loadsub=loadsub#graph

 

the problem with 22khz that no matters if you load it with 800pf the HF down at around 10khz.

 

Loading it at 47k and 250pf improves but not  what we could want:

https://alignmentprotractor.com/cartridge-loading-calculator?ind=500&indunit=1000&cartres=2500&cap=250&preres=47&preresunit=1000&grid=stat&range=sonic&scale=log&loadsub=loadsub#graph

 

Now if you loaded at 75khz + 100pf then improves a lot:

 

https://alignmentprotractor.com/cartridge-loading-calculator?ind=500&indunit=1000&cartres=2500&cap=100&preres=75&preresunit=1000&grid=stat&range=sonic&scale=log&loadsub=loadsub#graph

 

I usually load the MM/MI types at 100k and if you or other gentlemans read the long MM thread ( where I advised touse that kind of load) several audiophiles said are/were satisfied and better than 47k.

 

The cartridge DC resistance is a number I read somewhere ,maybe can be a little higher and if it's that way the better response.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm with Raul.  I usually load both MMs and high output MIs at 100K ohms. I keep capacitance to a minimum (about 100pF or certainly no more than 200pF) in both cases.  However, I know that some do prefer a resistive load lower than the standard 47K ohms. To be honest, I haven't looked into the rationale for that.

@mijostyn : The Stanton of those times shows 1,800 ohm Audio Technica around 2,500 ohms, latest Stanton 981 around 900 ohms, Shure 2,500 or 3,000 seems ok.

 

Now those links showed electrically FR response numbers and what you like is a different matters. It’s almost absolutely weird/rare that you bougth the resistors with out check " numbers " that usually you are in love with numbers.

@lewm you are just rigth and those hat goes lower than 47k ( at least 47k. ) have problems with ears and/or system or both , somewhere down there.

I tested 150+ cartridges ( including 3-4  Shure's and at least one with Jico SAS stylus. ) and all one like 100k with low capacitance, no matters what and for me is good that some ONE as you confirm it by first hand experiences.

 

R.

I think I got the idea from you in the first place.  Then I tried 100K where before I used 47K.  This may have been with the Grace Ruby, but I am not sure.  Anyway, 100K was obviously superior to my ears in my system.

It occurred to me that Grace recommended 400pF capacitance for the Ruby. 400pF with 47K ohms gives the same RC constant as 200pF (where I’m usually at, approximately) with 100K ohms. And yet it sounds different.

@rauliruegas @lewm 

Your recommendations on loaiding and capacitance are garbage.

According to independent measurements of the Shure V15vmr in High Fidelity Magazine in 1984 ( unfortunately I can't post pictures ) the frequency response at the loading AS RECOMMENDED BY SHURE 47k and 250pf the response was flat to 15k.

See middle of page 41 in the link below.

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-High-Fidelity/80s/High-Fidelity-1984-12.pdf

I very much doubt whether either of you has actually ever heard the Shure in your own system, because loading at 100k will generate a large high frequency peak.

My own experience having owned both the V15vmr and V15vxmr from new, with a variety of phono stages is the SHURES RECOMMENDED LOADING OF 47K and 250pf is the most accurate response.

 

I made no recommendation at all, particularly with respect to loading the Shure. I’ve only related my own experience with loading MM (particularly the Grace Ruby) and high output MI cartridges other than the Shure, in much more recent years. A reader can take it or leave it. When I did own a V15 (probably the III version, and surely in the 70s or early 80s), I’m quite sure I loaded it conventionally, and it nevertheless did not engage my long term admiration. I remember it as dry and lifeless. As I recall your saying further up the thread, you were not a fan, either. Mijo has a later version of the V15 with an aftermarket stylus, so his cartridge may exhibit very different character from mine.

@macg19 

@rauliruegas Right now the Soundsmith is on the tonearm and there is no harshness at all. Thanx for the link.

@dover I have no way of knowing what the capacitance of my cable is. Is there a way to measure it?

If you have a good multimeter, just set it on capacitance and then place one lead on the hot and one on the ground on the connector, OR if balanced IC, then place one lead on the plus phase output (pin2) and the other lead on the negative phase output (pin3) of the XLR.  The other end of the cable should be disconnected. You need a meter that reads at least down to 50pF.  My Fluke 87V can do it, I think. In balanced, the reading from positive to ground (pin1) will be/should be equal to the reading from negative to ground. The net reading from pos to neg will be one half of either.

Dear @dover : look what is garbage is what you posted and that you did not read slowly through my posts where I said: " those numbers shows electrically FR.." and " Electrically this is the FR response loaded at 22K... "

 

In those reviews what you look is not the electrical real FR of the cartridges but what through a not even D2D recordings by JVC and CBS showed and where the reviewers used different tonearm/TTs, yes all those has all de " defects " off those old time about the LP recording tests and what you listened with out the cartridge Dynamic Stabilizer is not what the reviewers did it.

 

Other thing that you did not read it is:

" Please bear in mind that the calculator is based on an electrical model only. It cannot make any any assumptions about about what is happening on a mechanical level. Resonances of the cantilever, which can contribute to the frequency response and sound of a phono cartridge, and other mechanical effects are not taken into account. "

What @lewm , me an hundred of audiophiles are enjoying today with all those vintage cartridges are doing ( loading at 100khz. ) through almost today top tonearms/TT or top vintage ones along many oher system improved characteristics over the reviewers or even/maybe you in those old times.

Those gentlemans and lew/me know exactly what we are talking today and we are doing in each one home system, you can be sure that your " ears " are not way better than us and you can be sure too that my thousands of first hand experiences about could even you experiences.

 

" 100k will generate a large high frequency peak.... ", electrically not really because it shows around 1+db at around 10khz, 2+db at 18khz and only 3+db at 20khz going down fast at 25khz and you know what? that " peak " contributes to to in some ways compensate for the filter used at 50khz ( around it. Neumann pole. ) during the recording LP sessions to help/impede the cutting head goes burn-in.

And those 2+/3+db are numbers that goes perfectly with what ( very long time ago research with Ortofon Golden Ears panel found out. ) Ortofon did and does where the MC Diamond or Verissimo has a 2+db down there and this deviation is make on purpose by Ortofon. Period.

 

R.

 

Also, the idea of loading at 100K ohms vs 47K ohms should not be considered in isolation from the load capacitance, which is what I was getting at when I mentioned that 47K ohms with ~200pF and 100K ohms with ~100pF give about the same RC constant. Or in the case of the Grace where Grace recommended 400pF with 47K ohms, 200pF with 100K ohms (about where I am for R and C) is equivalent, at least mathematically in the equation for resonant frequency. I think 99% of manufacturers will recommend 47K ohms for R, because 99% of MM phono stages come equipped with a 47K ohm load resistance, and why send the customer into a tailspin by recommending some other resistive load?

look what is garbage is what you posted and that you did not read slowly through my posts where I said: " those numbers shows electrically FR.." and " Electrically this is the FR response loaded at 22K... "

@rauliruegas 

I actually did read your post carefully, and the electrical parameters and assumptions that you used in your calculations are wrong.

Good for you. Stay calm. Bye ¡ ¡ 

R.

Mijo, don’t forget to add in the input capacitance of your phono stage. In proportion to their gain factor all phono stages present a capacitance, both tube and solid state types, especially those with op amp input stages.

@lewm You know, I never noticed that my meter does indeed measure capacitance. So, thanx for pulling my chain. On the cable I get 0.04 nF (40 pF) For some reason I can not measure on pins 2 and 3 of the phono stages input. The meter just says RUN. I guess I should get s 200 pF cap and put it across pin 2 and 3 of the input? What kind of cap would you use?

I am not sure you can measure input capacitance in such a simple manner, because the input capacitance is only present when current is flowing.  That information you probably need to get from the manufacturer. I am impressed if your meter can measure 0.04nF.  Today I had reason to check the specs for my Fluke 87V in the owners manual, and I think the lower limit of its sensitivity is 1 or maybe 10nF.  I was going to go on here and apologize.  I also have a Sencore LC meter that is crazy sensitive, and with it I can certainly measure pF's and have often done so. If you want to add capacitance, then yes I think you can install a capacitor across pins 2 and 3. I would use polystyrene.  Michael Percy Audio sells them; his catalog is on line. But maybe hold off until you find out the input capacitance of your phono section.

V15 v Hyperion v Atlas. 

Chevy Vega v Lexus SUV v. Bentley

V15 v Hyperion v Atlas. 

Chevy Vega v Lexus SUV v. Bentley

I guess the V15 must be the Lexus based on build quality and consistency.

 

 

@bpoletti @dover I think that is an unfair comparison It is more like a Corvette VS a Mclaren vs Ferrari

@lewm All I can say is that it thinks it can. It is a BK Precision and I have no idea where it stands in the world of meters. Rob Robertson had me shorten the cable to decrease series resistance. For MM cartridges I am using the Dynavector stage in the DEQX. I'll have to look inside to check out the fascilities

@mijostyn  @dover 

V15 = Chevy Vega = mediocrity

Hyperion = Lexus = lush ride

Atlas = Bentley = Top luxury with high performance

You don’t get comfort in a sports car

@bpoletti Wow! The Vega was possibly the worst contraption ever to have 4 wheels. The V15 was far from the worst contraption ever to have a stylus. I don't know about you, but I am far more interested in performance than comfort. Bentley made a name for itself racing by the way. Google Bentley Boys! What a sight that must have been. 

@mijostyn

No. You’re forgetting Yugos, Pinots and early Corvairs.  I'm glad we never had to experience Soviet-Russian cars.

At best, the V15 V was mediocre. I had one. Every other cartridge after that was MUCH BETTER.

To be honest, I haven't looked into the rationale for that.

@lewm  IIRC we were running a square wave through the cartridge and the loading was to reduce ringing. Unlike a LOMC, high output cartridges have a lot more inductance and (again, IIRC) could 'ring' at audio frequencies.

Please bear in mind that the calculator is based on an electrical model only. It cannot make any any assumptions about about what is happening on a mechanical level. Resonances of the cantilever, which can contribute to the frequency response and sound of a phono cartridge, and other mechanical effects are not taken into account. "

When you load a cartridge with lower resistance values, you provide greater mechanical damping of the cartridge mechanism. It may well be that this is why we were using lower values than the calculators suggest.

@mijostyn Obviously controlling capacitance is a big deal; that's why tonearm cables tend to be low capacitance. 100pf for a 1 meter run is typical.

"  could 'ring' at audio frequencies. "  certainly in your system is happening and not a possibility with.

 

" mechanical damping? " good for you because the MM vintage cartridges are very well mechanical damped and additional the Shure has its dynamic stabilizer.

To  each his  own and good to know that you(we) are way satisfied at 22k. That is all about.

 

If you ask to your self yes I experienced around 20k-30k because one gentleman in the long MM thread suggested but all gentlemans returned to 100 after experiencedwith different cartridges in a lot of different systems ( one for each one of them.) but as I said: to each his own and I'm way satisfied with. Yes could be I'm just " deaf " as many others.

 

First the numbers then the ears.

 

R.

 

@atmasphere My cable has been cut to 24 inches So according to your comment 40 pf would be about right. 

@rauliruegas If it only involves a few parts and a soldering iron I will try anything. I also have 50 kohm resistors, 100 and 200 pF caps on order. I have just gone through $2000 is ESL step up transformers looking for the right set up and burning a few out. What's a few resistors.