The order of getting more/better bass

My speakers are not large speakers with built in sub.  That statement means you do not really understand the G E concept. It is a FULL RANGE speaker with powered woofers. If you are going to diss the speakers, at least get the concept right.  My room furnishings give me all the room treatment I would ever need.  
Are you going to take me up on my invitation?

Erik,

This discussion is pointless since I gave you my answer and right away you dissed the speakers and room acoustics. I invite you to my home to listen to my system with your music and you be the judge. Send me a PM for the address and we can discuss time and date.  Bring an empty stomach so you can eat the full plate of crow after listening. 

@mijostyn --

Mr Hartley is certainly correct in saying the best bass is expensive.

As Mr. Harley put it:

Third, accurate bass reproduction is expensive. The lower the frequency accurately reproduced, the more expensive bass becomes. Note the word “accurate” in both sentences; you can buy a $500 loudspeaker that has output below 40Hz, but it’s unlikely that the bass it produces will be accurate. Realistic reproduction of the bottom octave (16Hz–32Hz) requires large woofers, which in turn requires a large cabinet. The larger the cabinet the more prone it is to vibration that will color the sound. Enclosure vibration colors the music tonally and destroys music’s dynamic structure. The solution is to build heroic enclosures that don’t vibrate, but such enclosures are extremely dense, heavy, and expensive.

I can attest to this part, "Realistic reproduction of the bottom octave (16Hz–32Hz) requires large woofers, which in turn requires a large cabinet.," but the concern about enclosure vibrations and their amelioration is, if not unfounded, then blown out of proportion - certainly in regard to expense. It’s the typical hifi-adage of "you get what you pay for," and while bigger drivers and cabinets are more expensive than smaller ones, all things being equal, the final cost of refrigerator-sized (or bigger) bass cabs needn’t be excessive - at least not relative to the amount of money being spent in the high-end arena on cables and other accessories alone.

The first and foremost challenge in achieving great bass reproduction (other than implementation) is the need for sheer size (and/or number of subs), but many an audiophile would rather shell out ungodly amounts of dough than have size have its unapologetic way, and this is the real crux of the matter; cultivation in the extreme, within a physically limited speaker framework, rather than, conversely, going by form-follows-function. How about an Infinite Baffle bass setup with 4x18" drivers per side (that is, two of them) taking up floor to ceiling, or a pair of large horn subs with everything ranging from 15" to 21" drivers? If one wanted to buy these or similarly pre-build from, say, Wilson Audio, Magico, Cessaro or Living Voice they’d cost a downright fortune with their expensive veneering, lacquers and overall material wealth. But, who needs that other than the über-wealthy wanting to flaunt their investment? Go DIY, and that entails having others build the cabinets, and it’ll cost a fraction while, dare I say, delivering equally where sonics goes.

It’s about dedication, common sense and letting size/physics have its way. That’s not a recipe for potential bankruptcy, but rather using money where it really and mostly matters to achieve the desired sonic goal.

 

I amazes me how some people can possess such ability to insult other people.

+1 Andy

Tough crowd E. I dig your effort though.

BTW, I don’t hate GE speakers. Just the screeching incoherent mess that comes out of the mid and treble ranges.

My room is 14 by 20 with12 foot ceilings.  My Golden Ear Triton Reference speakers give jaw dropping sound in this room with the speakers set up on the long wall.   I know you hate GE speakers.

So your advice is to get a speaker with a built -in sub, and ignore room acoustics altogether?

My room is 14 by 20 with12 foot ceilings.  My Golden Ear Triton Reference speakers give jaw dropping sound in this room with the speakers set up on the long wall.   I know you hate GE speakers. 
Next?

Here is a challenge:

Given a modest living room, say 12’ x 20’ x 8-10’ ceilings. Audiophile has a 2-way speaker system he really likes but now she/he would like more bass.

What would you recommend instead of my suggestions,

@douglas_schroeder , @jsautter , @stereo5 ?

Show us your mettle.

Best,

E

If you want to fill a large room with quality sound that you can play at a decent level, a 2 way stand mount speaker system with a sub or two will not cut it.

Please re-read my very first sentence, and pay careful attention to the audience I meant this post for.  Here, so it's not too hard, I'll repost it below:

Say you have a nice 2-way speaker system. Maybe you are starting in your hobby, and maybe you have decided the bottom octaves are a place to improve. What next?

So, this was not a post for those who can afford a home, build a custom listening room and whose rooms are designed or altered for large speakers.

Erik always mentions DIY,

Provably false statement. 

but many of us aren’t interested in that.

OK, but not sure what that has to do with anything in this thread.  Are your feelings hurt that I didn't post this about how to be an audiophile if you don't want to or can't buy the largest possible speakers and equipment?

It’s funny that all the BEST speaker systems are not 2 way speakers with subs. Just why is that Erik? Did you ever hear or read about the laws of physics? Those 2 way speakers will chug and distort when pressed to play loudly.

The laws of physics, measurement tools, and my own ears tell me that large speakers often sound like crap in the wrong room. Why do you think so many high end 2-way monitors are sold in the US?

What is on the cover of Stereophile or TAS after they've bought 30 full size glossy ads is probably not going to sound good in the beginning audiophile's listening room.  So, sure, pick out some $30,000 / 500 lb speaker and I can find plenty of places in which most of them would sound like utter crap and I could put a better 2-way with sub in, with some very noticeable and clever exceptions. :)

Best,

E

My first tip for beginning enthusiasts would be to totally ignore your original post!

  Typical, poorly thought through, poor advice

 I amazes me how some people can possess such ability to insult other people.

If you want to fill a large room with quality sound that you can play at a decent level, a 2 way stand mount speaker system with a sub or two will not cut it. Been there, done that. While you can convince yourself it is good, there is much better. Erik always mentions DIY, but many of us aren’t interested in that. It’s funny that all the BEST speaker systems are not 2 way speakers with subs. Just why is that Erik? Did you ever hear or read about the laws of physics? Those 2 way speakers will chug and distort when pressed to play loudly.

While the 2 way speakers and subs may play Jazz and Chamber Music well, a full blown symphony orchestra playing something like 1812 Overture or say some Pink Floyd will sound 100% better on a large floor standing speaker system. I don’t have a dedicated room for my main rig and I do not need room treatment like bass traps. My couch takes care of that plus all the other furniture in the room, plus the drapes, wall hangings, etc. Why would anyone want an equalizer in a high end system, that is nothing more than a band aid.

Doug Schroeder is correct in his post. I trust him much more than the O P as he has been in the industry for many years and has heard and reviewed many types of set ups. Erik, I hope my answer meets your criteria of an honest answer, weather you agree or not.

Pardon my concentration. The infinite bass line source limits reflected energy from all surfaces except the ceiling and rear wall.

The TAS article is OK but there are a couple of points I disagree with. The first is room size vs woofer size. An 8 inch sub is not going to go very low. It just can not project. Multiple 8 inch drivers may be able to get down to say 30 Hz but still they will not make it down to 18 Hz where the action is. It is those low frequencies that give you a sense of venue size.
In a small room you need at least a single 12" driver or multiple 10 inch drivers. As far as room size is concerned, you can make bass in a telephone booth. It is just hard getting in there with the sub woofer. Yes, larger rooms are easier to deal with but you have to work with what you have and I have heard some seriously good systems in 10 X 15 foot rooms. It is harder to get the bass right but it can be done just not in the short time you have to work with in a "show" situation. Next, a system Q of 0.5 is too dampened. You will never get the impact of really low bass.
I like 0.65. You get detailed bass and super low frequency impact. You get more impact if you go higher but you start losing detail. The home theater subs do this. You can accomplish the same impact and maintain detail by getting a second sub. I use 4 12 inch subs with a system Q of 0.62 (hard to get it perfect). The bass is very detailed and I can make your vision blur with bass drum strikes, the best of both worlds. You also have to be careful to use high powered amplifiers with very high damping factors 500 or higher with subwoofers like this along with very short low gauge wires 8 gauge or lower. Good subwoofer drivers have huge inductive motors and throw a lot back at the amp. 
People who are silly enough to read my posts like cleeds and geoffkait know that I am not crazy about bass traps. I have never seen them work.
Just place the sub is corners and if you can place a third or even fourth sub along the wall wonderful. You have just made yourself an infinite bass line source which will which seriously limits reflected energy to the ceiling and rear wall. The rest can be easily cleaned up with room control.
You might need 6 dB of correction here and there. Nothing crazy. 
Mr Hartley is certainly correct in saying the best bass is expensive. Erik, you make speakers! Sub woofers are easy. There are a gazillion great drivers out there now. I think Dayton makes the best for the money. My personal favorite right now is the Morel TiCw 1258 but it is 3 times as expensive. 1" MDF is not enough. The thickest you can get it is 1.5". I like at least 2" so I laminate two 1" panels together with epoxy (System One).
Glues like Titebond use water as the solvent and can make the MDF swell. You can make a real stiff and heavy enclosure because you don't have to worry about shipping and labor costs! 

Hi @jsautter ,

Thank you for being constructive, and specific in your criticisms. I especially appreciate how you used your personal experience to explain your difference of opinion and how  you feel your choices made your experience better.
Nothing trollish about that at all.

Best,

Erik

For the beginner - Don’t get so caught up in the "bass array" hype that you don’t even try a single sub. A single quality sub in the right spot will be significantly better than no sub. Work on the array when you can afford it.

The TAS article by Robert Harley is a worthwhile read....

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-guide-to-better-bass-tas-197-1/

My first tip for beginning enthusiasts would be to totally ignore your original post! 

I have no equalizer.Reasonably efficient speakers,a decent amp,multiple subs,bass traps = excellent tuneful bass

Hi @douglas_schroeder

Thank you for being specific, constructive and offering meaningful counter points based on your personal experience.

Your ability to convey that all in what would otherwise seem like an incomplete sentence is something I will attempt to emulate in the future.

Thanks again for setting the standard high and reaching out with your helpful commentary.
Best,

Erik

Typical, poorly thought through, poor advice. 

A ported bass reflex speaker usually does not have the bass control vs. for example transmission line speakers.  Sometimes it's the room fault but it could be how the speaker controls the bass.  

Regardless, having two sub, one for each channel is probably preferable vs. only one sub, but of course along with the cost.  Depends on any given sub, the sub also plays some high frequencies and those are not omni-directional, therefore having two sub can help getting a good soundstage image.  

Nonoise you aren't wrong, but I'm going to argue that without reasonably good room acoustics you won't know it.

It is a lot easier to discern the quality of an amp and the benefit of the amp/speaker match up afterwards.

Still, your point that amps matter in bass is well taken.

Use a great amp to get the most out of your speakers. You’d be surprised at how much bass you can get out of your speakers that you didn’t think possible. It will sound deeper, tighter and more coherent.

Add in room size and acoustics and you may not need a subwoofer at all.

All the best,
Nonoise

Placing your chair in a bass node helps a lot if you just want 'more' bass. :-)

There are no shortcuts to high quality sound. If you want high quality, you will need a custom built room with custom tuned speakers and every bass note should be perfect. 
There is no such thing as improving the bottom end. Either its perfect or its not. 

Wow a revelation.