The new Synergistic Research BLUE fuses ....
Ok if you must, forget the system and what it must of sounded like before all these awe inspiring fuse improvements one on top of another. One can also ask, can this view of this person be believed. As these types of multiple magnificent improvements type statements for each consecutive fuse addition, beggars belief. And really questions the credibility aspect. BTW this is the only thread, I frequent that is so toxic, all others there maybe disagreements, but they are quickly nullified, but not here. I’ve seen threads shut down for far less angst between members than what going on here, I wonder why?? This one did get shut down a couple of days ago, but it’s the first one I’ve seen reopened?? Cheers George |
Georgehifi sez:
To be exact George ... the system sounded great before I started fooling with after market fuses. With each upgrade in fuses the sound got better. Therefore, my enthusiasm with each upgrade, and therefore my compulsion to share the experience with others. . Again George ... state your intent here. Thanks ... Frank |
Geoff, thanks for posting the
pseudoskepticism dissertation. It seems old
Marcello had a soft spot for the scientific agnostic (a.k.a. skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic, unbeliever, nonbeliever, rationalist). Are you suggesting a new category here on the SA Blue thread or are none of the pseudoskeptics qualified to ascend to the level of a scientific skeptic? BTW, I gotta ask, were you previously familiar with the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), based on their study of the Teleportation Tweak? |
As I said before prof Thats just mean spirited and a cheap shot even for you....... |
georgehifi sez:
Sorry to disappoint you George, but the system sounded better than it ever did prior to getting involved with SR fuses and Tim Mrock’s TC. With the addition of these two tweaks, the system sounds as good, if not better than any audio system in my experience. The transparency, 3-D effects, the correct sound of actual instruments and voices are right up there with what is considered to be really high end systems. Does it play really huge like systems featuring Wilson’s top of the line speakers? Nope ... but then, its a matter of scale. Besides, saxophones aren’t ten feet tall in real life. For the life of me George, I can’t understand your purpose in your negative posts. I’ll ask for the umpteenth time ... what is your intent??? Frank |
prof, He did say it struck a nerve when I mentioned 'pious', or at least piqued his interest. I just give him the benefit of the doubt of simply venting after reading this long thread before chiming in. Maybe on a different day it would have struck me the wrong way and got my hackles up but today it didn't. Somedays my thin skin can get really thick. All the best, Nonoise |
nonoise, He painted skeptics as selfish demanding children who bog down conversations with "demands for proof!" and himself and those like him as enlightened and charitable. It’s a b.s. characterization. His characterization won’t map on to what I’ve written. Nor have I seen other skeptics demanding PROOF but only better evidence.And the charitable characterization he gives himself doesn’t map to his own post, or to many of the responses against skeptics in this thread either. If he wants to engage the reasons someone else has for another view, let him do it. But just tossing out barely-veiled insults without showing they are warranted at all is poor form. It's just dismissing someone's position with insult, without doing the work to justify his claims. |
From wiki page on psedoskepticism: In 1987, Marcello Truzzi revived the term (pseodoskepticism) specifically for arguments which use scientific-sounding language to disparage or refute given beliefs, theories, or claims, but which in fact fail to follow the precepts of conventional scientific skepticism. He argued that scientific skepticism is agnostic to new ideas, making no claims about them but waiting for them to satisfy a burden of proof before granting them validity. Pseudoskepticism, by contrast, involves "negative hypotheses"—theoretical assertions that some belief, theory, or claim is factually wrong—without satisfying the burden of proof that such negative theoretical assertions would require.[5][6][7][8] [your humble scribe’s insert)] Note: Marcello Truzzi (September 6, 1935 – February 2, 2003) was a professor of sociology at New College of Florida and later at Eastern Michigan University, founding co-chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), a founder of the Society for Scientific Exploration,[1] and director for the Center for Scientific Anomalies Research.] Truzzi attributed the following characteristics to pseudoskeptics:[5] Denying, when only doubt has been established Double standards in the application of criticism The tendency to discredit rather than investigate Presenting insufficient evidence or proof Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof Making unsubstantiated counter-claims Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence Suggesting that unconvincing evidence provides grounds for completely dismissing a claim He characterized true skepticism as:[5] Acceptance of doubt when neither assertion nor denial has been established No burden of proof to take an agnostic position Agreement that the corpus of established knowledge must be based on what is proved, but recognising its incompleteness Even-handedness in requirement for proofs, whatever their implication Accepting that a failure of a proof in itself proves nothing Continuing examination of the results of experiments even when flaws are found |
Just so you know, I'm an atheist. I appreciated Ivan's post because it's well written and parallels some of what I feel. I don't see it as the kind of attack it's being made out to be, rather an observation on how he sees things, which everyone here, myself included, does. If someone directs a rebuttal expressly at me, I'll answer in kind. But just to give voice to something that's hard to pin down shouldn't anger anyone. We're all reaching to find the words to express ourselves. If it should hit close to home, maybe some introspection is in order. A nerve can be struck, but it doesn't mean it's expressly directed at you. All the best, Nonoise |
As I said before
prof
" If you go back to the OP’s first post and see the differences a "black" fuse did, them maybe multiples into all the equipment, then after that the massive improvements the "blue" does over the "black" then the massive improvements multiple "blues" do. You’ve got to think to your self, that system of his must of sounded like a real t**d before any of these boutique $150 fuses came along. Cheers George |
Hi oregonpap. The thing is I've obviously been one of the more prominent skeptics in the last part of this thread. If ivan did not mean to impune me as well, he could have been gracious enough to do so. Instead he produced a lazy post that splattered mud everywhere. A lot of people who produce those type of insulting posts use and excuse like "Hey, I wasn't naming anyone...and if YOU responded I guess you must think it's about yourself, so that's on you!" (I would not be surprised to see this follow up...) But that is essentially extending an already trolling style of posting. It's like walking in to a party and saying "I just want to everyone here to know I think *some* of you have appalling taste in clothing!" It of course leaves people wondering if they are being targeted. The idea that "well, you'd know if you were the target of the insult if you fit the description" is of course a silly counter reply, because OF COURSE no one thinks they fit the description of the insult. So you still have to wonder WHO EXACTLY the person has in mind. Essentially the person making this type of insult couches it as not directed at anyone in particular as if he's not being confrontational, but what he's doing is actually just splattering the mud of insult in every direction to see what sticks. And that is actually trollish. So even if ivan didn't have me in mind, he's nonetheless taking the same tact in insulting others who voice skepticism - lazily characterizing them without directly engaging in anyone's argument to justify his claims. |
prof ... Interesting that you took Ivan's post personally. I don't believe he was attacking you. I read through his post and didn't find your name mentioned even once. Please reread Ivan's post. For what its worth, I value both your's and Ivan's posts. You both have a beautiful way with words. As an avid reader, I admire that talent. greatly. What Ivan called a "road," I always referred to as a narrow pathway. "What is hidden from the most learned is revealed to mere children." Frank |
This has been a revealing thread! I don’t think I’ve ever before seen some audiophiles make such an explicit association between the adherence to subjectivity in this hobby and religious belief. The hymns have been sung, the hands clasped, the wagons of Faith circled. So I offer a view from the other side. Ivan’s post was simply ludicrous. It was, as is so often the case, a feigned pious humility leveraged to disparage the character of other people. As if simply intoning one is a Christian is a sign of humility, while in fact the whole thrust of the post puts himself on a pedestal above the poor lost souls he’s slagging. I have voiced some skepticism about tweaks like the fuses, and have given my reasons. But nowhere have I made any close-minded absolutist claims like "they don’t or can’t make a difference," nor have I told anyone to go blind testing whatever they buy, as I don’t do that myself. As I’ve said to each his own. I’ve explained that I come to my skepticism also based on acquaintance with the fallibility of my own perception (as revealed when I’ve done blind tests). Which mirrors the fallibility well documented by scientific studies of human bias. I’m of course willing to drop my doubts with better evidence. This is about as anti absolutist or dogmatic as one could get. But for giving the reasons for my own doubts...the response has been so often to cast aspersion on my character, rather than directly interact with my arguments. Ivan’s post was simply a ridiculous strawman dragged through the mud. People who voice their skepticism about the things he believes are depicted, from his enlightened perch, as being childish, lost souls, wallowing in the mud, raging and demanding, selfish (with even thinly veiled allusions to the damned). Get over yourself, Ivan. I’m not selfishly "demanding" anyone do anything. Asking for good evidence for a claim isn’t selfish or a sin (except perhaps in your faith)...in normal life, it’s being sensible and adult, rather than just believing any claim that comes along no matter how much enthusiasm is behind it. You claim that you are open to seeking the truth. What exactly have I said that was not consonant with seeking the truth? I have said the sonic benefits of fuses (and AC cords) were a subject of controversy, vs a widely accepted phenomenon. That’s true. When the inevitable anecdotes are given - "I heard a difference" - I have pointed out that there are variables in there. We humans have all sorts of biases that can influence the results, which means we can, and often are, mistaken in our subjective assessments (e.g. in audio, hear changes when no changes are there). This is a well documented TRUTH about human perception. Testable by anyone here. If you are, as you claim, about seeking truth...exactly how are you accounting for the truths about human bias in your own assessments? If you reject the data on human bias, please don’t tell me you are about truth. But if you accept it, then my bringing it in to the discussion IS caring about truth. If you KNOW the ways you may be mistaken due to bias effects but don’t care...why would YOU get to portray yourself as more interested in truth than the "skeptic" who worries about his own and other’s bias? For my part, to the degree I don’t bother controlling for bias in my own assessments, I at least mitigate my own claims and confidence about the results. How is that NOT being careful about the truth? But instead of actually dealing with the reasoning I’ve given, you make it easy on yourself using religious analogy to paint a completely false characterization and slag folks like me as lost, selfish children. This isn’t "beautiful" or insightful. It’s cowardly and uncharitable, and should be beneath any mature adult. Those of us who have voiced skepticism about certain elements of high end audio are just as passionate about this hobby as you are. We just happen to have our own viewpoint to express. Those of you patting Ivan and yourselves on the back for his complete strawmanning and fake pious humility - with "amens," - I hope you can pause for a moment and re-consider the wisdom of falling in line with that type of lazy character attack. Wrapping insults in the warm quilt of "faith-talk" shouldn’t so easily blind you to what was actually going on. |
uberwaltz - Question for anybody? Does the OPPO udp205 contain an internal fuse at all? If so do we know the size?Hi uberwaltz. I have an Oppo 205, but do not know the answer to your question. That said, I can tell you that Oppo support is very helpful and forthcoming. Perhaps they can answer your question. 🙂 |
@mapman Ah I see. A clever label it would seem for one who can apparently read other’s minds to place on others if they do not drink their kool aid! I see how that works! No wonder GK loves that term so much! I did not know we had mind reader’s in these parts! Very mystical! Much like fancy fuses themselves. Do you have reading comprehension problems? You obviously have a lurid imagination. The true pseudo-skeptics in this thread have stated that there is a zero percent chance that audiophile fuse can make a difference, and they have no desire to try one. |
Tel555 I would not dream of stating something did not or could not work unless I had actually tried it for myself and that applies to anything not just fuses. Now what you can do is state why you THINK they might not work based on some logic but you still cannot state they absolutely cannot work, as certain members insist , WITHOUT actually trying them. |
This thread is now in its death throes, and probably not before time. At the point religion gets mentioned, a swathe of people turn off, understandably, even in Ooo Ess Aay. Seen it before. Plus too many people crying to moderators. Again, familiar pattern. It's like this. Most, if not all, users of blue fuses report an improvement. That's either the biggest placebo con trick in the history of hi-fi, or there really is something to it. You decide. But how about trying the damn product before commenting? You know who you are. Peace out. |
Geoff already explained it, and it works suitably. When someone pretends to be a skeptic, but they really have no interest in said item/subject, as they’ve already made up their absolute decision in their mind. Ah I see. A clever label it would seem for one who can apparently read other’s minds to place on others if they do not drink their kool aid! I see how that works! No wonder GK loves that term so much! I did not know we had mind reader’s in these parts! Very mystical! Much like fancy fuses themselves. |
Wow. Hello all - I think I was fully prepared to walk into a buzz saw when I checked back in here. Pleasantly shocked to see positive responses....(although I suppose those blades are being sharpened as we speak!). Thanks for all the kind words all around! Normally I don't go in to play the 'religion card', lol, but it seemed like I didn't hardly have any other choice in this case. My post was just really my form of push back on the most adamant forms of denial. Less virulent skepticism I might try to entertain, of course. @nonoise I suspected what you meant by your 'pious' comment, but everything clicked in my head just so and just seemed to give me the in I was looking for so I didn't question it too awful much. @Clearthink, I **think** I understand now what you mean and, yeah...that might work. I would say that leaving such an out as that for others who might not wish to follow quite so blindly might very likely be the right tone to set. Again, thank you all! |
@analogluvr @jay23. I can't speak for prof but the reason I am here is to provide some balance and sanity in a thread that is sorely lacking. I remember when I was a newbie and I actually believed in all this nonsense. I would've loved to save the money that I spent on it. Yes I have tried audiophile fuses and no I did not hear any difference. If there was any difference it was so small that it could not be heard or measured. So you've tried and measured the Blue fuse? If not, that makes as much sense as someone trying a fast food burger, and claiming they don't like all hamburgers. |
@mapman jay23, Geoff already explained it, and it works suitably. When someone pretends to be a skeptic, but they really have no interest in said item/subject, as they've already made up their absolute decision in their mind. |
@prof I have some skepticism about audiophile fuses. It has nothing to do with your thoughts on fuses. It has everything to do with the statements you have made, revealing your listening acumen. This statement does display your illogical thought process. Do you work on commercials, games, and/or indie projects? |
Clearthink "I believe that fuses make no audible difference in a Music Reproduction System and because of this faith I see no need to test the veracity of my faith or to challenge, expect or demand that others believe as I do." It’s pretty easy to interpret that attitude/feeling/belief/faith whatever as unsupported and unapologetic denial. I actually *believe* that denial plays a big role in many attitudes here. “You can’t prove it!” 😡 maybe it’s time for an...intervention. Deprogramming. You know, like the Branch Davidians. Whatever. 😳 |
Clearthink "I believe that fuses make no audible difference in a Music Reproduction System and because of this faith I see no need to test the veracity of my faith or to challenge, expect or demand that others believe as I do." Not sure that is quite how Ivan expected his post to be interpreted but whatever. |
nonoise"That was beautifully expressed, indeed." It is very nice to see that others here also quickly recognize the great beauty in a simple expression of faith absent any proselytizing what so ever and it is may hope that perhaps some of the other members of this forum with deeply held faith may see in Ivan's proclomation an opportunity at last to express they're own faith such as, "I believe that fuses make no audible difference in a Music Reproduction System and because of this faith I see no need to test the veracity of my faith or to challenge, expect or demand that others believe as I do." |
@ivan_nosnibor That was beautifully expressed, indeed. I only meant that last line as a bit of snark, along the same lines as you expressed, as in: those with the least (or shaken) faith tend to proselytize the most, as if to make up for something lost, or lacking, in themselves. All the best, Nonoise |
ivan_nosnibor"It’s not really a matter of piousness per se, I’m supposing...or maybe it is...The problem for me is that they are simply DEMANDING that they be helped...I happen to be a Christian by faith. That does not mean of course that fuses are my god, or that science is not real to me or any other such inane thought. As a Christian, I’m just as open to seeking the truth (the Relative truth...not the Absolute truth - which I am generally content to leave to God) as anyone else, be they atheist, agnostic or otherwise. Arguments with the most steadfast of skeptics always bog down for the same reason...when the skeptics bog down it’s because the underlying rules of engagement have changed. Again, they utterly DEMAND to understand something. They demand "proof" yet reject all proposals of it. I have simply decided to stop giving these people the time of day in such an argument...the moment they DEMAND to be helped is the moment they take themselves off the road of being a seeker...they have decided in their rage and frustration to take things out on others as a deliberate protest to God himself... This is a very beautifully crafted and substantially heart-felt expression of faith and belief and stands as a testimony to real faith, which needs no confirmation, substantiation or proof from anyone else that is the very basis of genuine faith. The words ivan expresses here honestly and frankly reveal a person of true and genuine faith, as opposed to the naysayers here who relatively speaking have invented they’re own faith that they cloak in their own exclusive unique and distinct interpretation of a clouded, murky, fuzzy version of "science." |
@nonoise and everyone. It’s not really a matter of piousness per se, I’m supposing...or maybe it is, except of course that the piety is false...as it always is with these kinds of skeptics - regardless of the topic du-jour...cables, fuses, whatever. I’m going for quite a different take here rather than confine my response to the narrowest of terms that the skeptics present...not their technical or scientific concerns - that at this point is not the problem. The problem for me is that they are simply DEMANDING that they be helped. This for any number of reasons is quite childish behavior. I’m not concerned personally or offended by this development, nor am I in any way threatened by it, I’m just stating my overall reason for my own POV. I happen to be a Christian by faith. That does not mean of course that fuses are my god, or that science is not real to me or any other such inane thought. As a Christian, I’m just as open to seeking the truth (the Relative truth...not the Absolute truth - which I am generally content to leave to God) as anyone else, be they atheist, agnostic or otherwise. Arguments with the most steadfast of skeptics always bog down for the same reason. As a Christian, and certainly among many non-Christians, the usual tendency is to try to help whenever someone asks for it...maybe especially if we feel we can see how that person can need help and/or we can see how it is that what we know may be of some use to that person. You can predict a certain amount of reciprocated good feelings when you initiate on that level. But, when the skeptics bog down it’s because the underlying rules of engagement have changed. Again, they utterly DEMAND to understand something. They demand "proof" yet reject all proposals of it. I have simply decided to stop giving these people the time of day in such an argument. I’ve learned by this stage in the game, that when someone crosses that line and makes the demand known, it’s always best to let them stew in their own lack of cooperation until they ultimately have no choice but to resume their own course. And when I say ’course’, I mean the larger philosophical course we are all on...that of someone actively engaged in the process of seeking answers...any answers in life, large or small. But, along that particular road, and it actually can be quite a spiritual road, if you ask me, you find two types of travelers: those are already well on their way and those who have been run into the ditch. These people in the ditch may look like they need help, but in fact they don’t. They don’t because the moment they DEMAND to be helped is the moment they take themselves off the road of being a seeker and, whether actively or inadvertently (it makes no difference which), they run Themselves into the ditch. You will find they are more than content, adamant even, to stay there. In their minds they may think that it was somehow someone else’s fault they are in the ditch. To pass the time they may take to throwing stones at passers by, especially when they may resemble those whom they feel drove them into the ditch. But their ’Demand for help’ is, I say, actually their supreme dissatisfaction with God being acted out. Their own trek on the road of seekers has left them tired and impatient to have the universe open up to them and make enough things finally understood to them. But, they have decided in their rage and frustration to take things out on others as a deliberate protest to God himself - to hold anyone who may venture close enough to help as a kind of spiritual hostage. But, of course, God does not play this game. God is infinitely willing to allow us to stay in the ditch...for the rest of our lives if we so choose...or...for us to come to the realization, that maybe, just maybe, that judgment of God’s lack of virtue in our mind was...well, maybe just a little..uh...premature. Once the desire to be actively on the road again finally outweighs the rage, then and only then, will we be able to resume our own course, but note that it’s the return to the road of seekers itself that is the necessary act of humility before God. It is the one toll we all must pay. God does Not grant us the Right to travel on this road - He grants us the Privilege...and it’s up to each of us to remember the difference. I have driven myself into the ditch many a time before. So have you. So has everyone else and there can be no exceptions to that. That’s just life. But, what I’m saying, as a Christian anyway, is that it is plainly not God’s intent to come to our aide when we are angry at Him (always epically wrong anyway) and that we should try to take our que from that. When people ask for help then we can help them. When they Demand it, we cannot. And besides, I have better things to do with my time. And we cannot be truly responsible for someone else’s conscience against their will, as we all each ultimately have our own judgment day to reckon with, as it should be. Sorry for the obnoxiously long post....but there. I’ve ranted a bit. |
analogluvr @jay23 @jay23. I can’t speak for prof but the reason I am here is to provide some balance and sanity in a thread that is sorely lacking. I remember when I was a newbie and I actually believed in all this nonsense. I would’ve loved to save the money that I spent on it. Yes I have tried audiophile fuses and no I did not hear any difference. If there was any difference it was so small that it could not be heard or measured. >>>>>Oh, brother! They’re starting to come out of the woodwork. You know, there are some perfectly valid reasons why some audiophiles have a proclivity for getting bad results with audiophile tweaks. Shall we review those reasons? Has anyone ever heard the expression, “all thumbs?” No offense, audiogluvr. “People would generally be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little.” - PT Barnum “An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.” - old audiophile axiom “No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more.” - old audiophile axiom |
