THE IMPORTANCE OF TIME DOMAIN RESPONSE MUST READ

Why would someone resurrect this clown's thread?

So dont be deceived folks. If you want better speakers, you will probably have to make them yourself because speaker manufacturers dont care about sound quality.

They are doing the best they can.

Why don’t you build a perfect pair of speakers and start selling them @kenjit ??

Just to get back to the original theme of this, this thread prompted me to double check my speakers were both evenly raked. Come to find that they were off by an 1/8th of an inch.

Got them both exactly the same and what I thought sounded great sounds even better. Never discount the small things that are easy to overlook or forget about. That tiny adjustment made the speakers disappear even more and cleaned up the Soundstage. 

Hey @Holmz - Not sure teh link- / context of what you are referring to.

Personally for home use I am not religious about active vs. passive crossovers. Anyone who has used a subwoofers has already at least dabbled in active filtering.

The biggest technical superiority of active speakers is power efficiency, something you need most in large venues. At home, simplicity matters a great deal to me. My main speakers are custom built, passive crossovers.  I'm thinking of making a high end center, which would be 3-way, active. 

DSP vs. Analog - With any speaker you have to make a crossover which, when added to your speaker's response, sums to an ideal end-result.  DSP based solutions really are the easiest, and add the ability to time align the drivers.

I like my stereo.  Mytek DAC, Luxman Integrated, 2-way stand mounts.  For me to go fully active I'd give up a great deal and add complexity.  Not willing to make that trip from here. That doesn't mean I'm averse to the idea overall.

@erik_squires - one of the links mentions 1st order is “as good as it gets without going active filters and bi amping.”

Do you have opinions on:

• Active as in DSP PEQs, FIR etc.
• Active as in OP-Amp based crossovers?
• other?

@erik_squires 

Thanks for the link!

Been on that site a few times, but never in that section.

Ill be checking it out.

p

@erik_squires 

Caps and coils are fundamental to creating high and low pass filters. Here’s a post I wrote a long time ago that may help you, though it covers the more common parallel crossovers:

Thanks for those links, I've sometimes wondered how that stuff works :-)

@perkri 

Here's a good blog post explaining the differences.   You can also use a free simulator like XSim to experiment without actually building anything.

https://www.tubecad.com/2017/11/blog0402.htm

@timlub 

Im a minimalist for sure :) Building a speaker for a friend, that is specifically intended to go into a shelf in a Ikea kallax shelving unit. 335mm cube. Not fun… So, small sealed full range driver and the rest is for a band pass sub. The boxes are doing most of the work, and the drivers were chosen for their suitability in the boxes. Even so, there are six components on the FR driver just to manage it. There are no”crossover” parts per say as the drivers/enclosures are doing the high pass/low pass work. But I digress :) Guess that was to illustrate how I very much prefer fewer parts.

@erik_squires 

Sorry, should have been more clear :) When using the ARSXO, I am struggling to see what purpose a cap would have on the woofer, and how it would be implemented. In a more traditional Cap/Res/Ind series or parallel crossover, sure, use of a cap is not a mystery. Just not in the ARSXO. Would love to see how that is done! Always wanting to learn new stuff…

@perkri    

If I'm not mistakebn, there has been a few different patents variations of series crossovers.  I haven't looked in a few years, but I believe Eric Alexander of Tekton filed the last patent variation.... Either way,  yes,  the Acoustic Reality crossover is one of the more simple versions.  

I have built many, many, many crossovers.  I've taken a ton of measurements and can tell you that series crossovers are not necessarily the only way to go.  But if you want to use less parts and are careful with inductance, they are typically very good and on the right drivers can be the best for some designs.  

Also here:

I was going by the links and what he wrote about his crossovers. I’d be curious what purpose a cap would serve in a crossover beyond protecting the tweeter. Unless it’s being used in a Zobel network on the woofer?

@perkri 

Caps and coils are fundamental to creating high and low pass filters. Here’s a post I wrote a long time ago that may help you, though it covers the more common parallel crossovers:

I know nothing about Fritz, and any patents or licensing involved, but patent reviewers are not omniscient or even domain experts. It is not that hard to patent BS or to create a patent which is a duplicate of another patent just reworded.

@erik_squires 

Thanks for that! So happy to hear Fritz is a nice as I have imagined from everything I’ve read. I’ve considered reaching out to him, but never been comfortable asking technical advice from a manufacturer/anyone in the industry  I don’t know. 
 

As far as caps in his circuit, I was going by the links and what he wrote about his crossovers. I’d be curious what purpose a cap would serve in a crossover beyond protecting the tweeter. Unless it’s being used in a Zobel network on the woofer?

@timlub 

While it works like a series crossover, don’t know I would refer t9 it as simply a series crossover. If it were, the designer would not have been able to get a patent on it. I’m a big fan of the approach. Have a way to go with getting a better understanding of its implementation (which is why I have wanted to reach out to Fritz), but seeing as how there is a commercial product I’m working on at the end of this, didn’t feel it was appropriate. 
 

Too bad this conversation has to happen in between the kenidjits ridiculous self aggrandizing rhetoric…

Nothing from @kenjit is a must read. 

 

Now time domain should relate to a wide band response. If for rxemple you have a two ways, the two point of emissions should arrive at the ears at the same time, so they are in phase and time correct. But it’s important to consider the behavior of the cross-over (inductive and capacitive parts. 6db slopes allowing for a better time domain behavior (less phase rotations) than 12 or 18 db slopes.

The position of the tweeter and woofer have to be such that cross-over frequency and behavior are taken in account. Introducing a square wave and measuring it through a microphone (able to reproduce it) can help to finalize the position of the tweeter. The ear is very sensible to time domain by the way

@armagedon36 ^agree^
We could break it down into before and after…

• With “before” being the launching of the acoustic field off of the transducer, which you are mentioning is best when it is faithful to the input signal (e.g. square wave).
• and the “after” being any resonance or ringing after the signal should have ended.

But… the OP at one point was talking more about cabinet ringing after the fact, and having a death grip on the driver with aa QTS=0 and did not seem to care about the “before” part.

At least in chronological order, worrying about what happens later, is a bit
“after the fact”… as you implicitly pointed out.

It is probably best to start off right, and not have it go all down the sewer with cabinet ringing and resonances later. (IMO)

But we do not know what the OP was thinking as they went silent pretty quickly.

Time domain is much more complex than just the QTS of the speaker.  QTS is related to the magnetic intensity of the magnetic assembly of a speaker but also related to the mechanical Q. The lower the magnetic field is the higher the QTS of a speaker. Also if you increase the stiffness of the suspension the Volume displaced by the speaker is reduced and the resonant frequency is increased as the QTS of the speaker, so it's an electro mechanical relationship.

Now time domain should relate to a wide band response.  If for rxemple you have a two ways, the two point of emissions should arrive at the ears at the same time, so they are in phase and time correct.  But it's important to consider the behavior of the cross-over (inductive and capacitive parts.  6db slopes allowing for a better time domain behavior (less phase rotations) than 12 or 18 db slopes.

The position of the tweeter and woofer have to be such that cross-over frequency and behavior are taken in account.  Introducing a square wave and measuring it through a microphone (able to reproduce it) can help to finalize the position of the tweeter.  The ear is very sensible to time domain by the way

Speaker starting and stopping.  A large factor is also the Damping factor of the amplifier and the amount of back emf produced as the coil is being energized by power going through it and at the same time producing its own back current. Electrostatic won't have that issue.  I believe that is a larger factor to be considered depending on the speaker matching the PA.

We need to make it mandatory for speaker companies to publish the time response of all their speakers so that consumers can easily compare and decide exactly what they want.

We? Do you have a turd in your pocket? ;-) 

Vandersteen has been prioritizing time domain from day one. VMPS also.

@kenjit 

Regarding @mofojo. Don't you know sarcasm when you hear it?  I don't think that he was supporting you.

have fun guys...  

Go Aktiv. 😎

What else would one listen to at a square dance? 😎

MY WELL THOUGHT OUT RESPONSE...MUST READ...When I sit down in my system's sweet spot to listen to my well sorted gear pile, by far my favorite thing to play is a nice square wave. You can sit there dreaming or get up and dance...yeah man...give some SQUARE WAVE. 

@kenjit earlier you were talking about:

There are many sources of ringing within the speaker. The cabinet can ring, the driver can ring, the crossover parts can ring. We need to stop all ringing wherever it occurs. It needs to be able to reproduce a square wave

Do you have the square wave measurements to show for your speaker?

Or is it a Gedanken design?

Ole Kenjt needs to get a can of tomato soup and some super glue, head on over to his local Art Museum and do a proper protest. Spread soup on a Masterpiece and glue yourself to the wall. Bet the speaker manufacturers will listen right up. Well as much as we are anyway. 

Working well for the Environmentalists, not really

Before we turn the page...

DeKay

Why do you guts continue to get caught up with engaging with the Op? His idea of putting holes in the side of your house , remember that thread of his , should have told you all you need to know.

@mofojo 

It’s a GD injustice is what it is!!!!!! I’m with ya Kenjit I am piiiiisssseeedddddd. These evil speaker companies must be stopped at all costs. All must come together as a nerdly whole! Stop 1. organize riot at Magico headquarters. Stop 2. Dairy Queen… we’ll deserve a tasty treat after all that rioting. 

Thankyou for your support.

I know of no speaker manufacturer who wouldn’t immediately jump at the chance to highlight their technology or approach as a distinguishing feature.

The differences between speakers are small but exaggerated in order to gain an advantage. Secrets are few and far between. How would you know what design aspects are being kept secret if they are secret? 

For you to attack other speaker makers without being willing to show example of your work and how your designs differ is simply crass.

Some of the ways you could improve a speaker are obvious though. You could use thick braced HDF rather than thin unbraced MDF. It would only add a couple of hundred dollars at most to the cost yet the speaker manufacturers will not do it unless you pay tens of thousands of dollars for their top models. 

Custom tuning is another thing that is better than mass production. Those Fritz speakers you mention are mass produced. Their only unique selling point is their stupid series crossover. Whereas I would just take the damn thing out and go active anyway. Funny how if series crossovers are so wonderful only Fritz can successfully implement them dont you think? 

Its incumbent on the speaker companies to make improvements, not me. If these commercial speakers are so good, why were you forced to make your own? For exactly the same reasons I have mentioned. You wanted something customized and at a less exorbitant price. 

I will not help my competitors gain an advantage and put my status at risk.

For you to have competitors you would have to be a professional speaker maker.

For you to attack other speaker makers without being willing to show example of your work and how your designs differ is simply crass. I know of no speaker manufacturer who wouldn’t immediately jump at the chance to highlight their technology or approach as a distinguishing feature.

And I know of no speaker manufacturer whose products are so secret  they don't advertise them.  🤣

One more thing, speaker/driver design involves balancing different performance parameters because there is no one design that optimizes all measures of performance.  Even if one is shooting for a very low Qts (extreme damping), this will affect other parameters, such as Cms (compliance of the speaker--the stiffness and how easily it is to move the diaphragm) and therefore, also the Fs (the resonant frequency which determines at what frequency the driver will roll off).  To achieve that high damping of a low Qts, the speaker will have to be very stiff, meaning it will also roll off at a high frequency, will require more power, and subjectively, it will sound dead and tuneless.

Qts that is being referred to is a Thiele-Small parameter for damping of the speaker--a combination of the mechanical and electrical damping--with a lower number indicating higher damping.  In a simple minded way, a lower number does reflect closer to instantaneous stopping of the driver after an impulse.  But, that does not imply that a lower number is better.  The parameter allows one to choose the right driver (primarily woofer) for the particular kind of speaker (sealed box, bass reflex open baffle, etc.) and to determine the particulars of the design being employed (volume/dimensions of the box, port dimensions, etc.) and so there is no one ideal value.  Higher values are better in some applications.  Pick too low a value and the speaker will lack bass, sound dead and overdamped.  

Unfortunately, as in previous postings, the OP has seized upon one thing as the magic bullet for perfect speaker design when there is no such thing.  There is no one speaker in the whole world that everyone will agree on as sounding the best, much less any single approach to achieving a high performing design.  

@kenjit 
It’s a GD injustice is what it is!!!!!! I’m with ya Kenjit I am piiiiisssseeedddddd. These evil speaker companies must be stopped at all costs!

All must come together as a nerdly whole! Stop 1. organize riot at Magico headquarters. Stop 2. Dairy Queen… we’ll deserve a tasty treat after all that rioting. 

All this ringing Kenjit keeps going on about.  Could it simply be he suffers with tinnitus?  Sometimes the simplest answer.........🤣

Acoustic Reality Series crossover are simply Series crossover..... Erik nailed it.... For what its worth,  I also really like Fritz,  smart well designed speakers that are affordable.  

@perkri

I’ve spoken to him a few times, he has my phone number and sometimes calls me out of the blue. My recollection from our discussions is that he’s never said he doesn’t use caps, but that because they are not in series with the tweeter he doesn’t have to use boutique caps the same way and can spend the bulk of the money on the drivers. On his site I found this line:

Series crossover without any capacitor or resistor in the circuit with the tweeter.

He isn’t saying no capacitor at all. :) He has _never_ said to me he doesn’t use caps.

BTW, Fritz are some of the very few 2-way speakers I can always recommend unconditionally.

PS - He's a super nice guy, feel free to call him and ask him if I'm mistaken.

@erik_squires 

From what I understand, he uses the ARSXO, which he acknowledges (as is required because of the patent held, which was made open provided anyone who used it in a commercial venture credited the circuit/inventor) The classic version of this crossover has one resistor, two inductors and of course the drivers in a two way wired in series. I know there is a version of this crossover out there that includes a single capacitor, but that is not the circuit he links to in his description? 
 

If you know otherwise, please elaborate as I would be very curious to know more!
 

And yes, more often than not, speakers use parallel crossovers. Much easier to tune a speaker that way. Each element can be isolated with greater ease. Change one thing in a series crossover, and you change more than one thing. Not as easy to isolate a problem. 
 

I’ve spent a fair amount of time over the past year or two trying to better understand the ARSXO, and have built several speakers using it. Have even managed to convert some diy friends after A/B comparisons using the ARSXO and the manufacturers crossover supplied, or, recommended crossover to be built. 
 

No capacitors, just those three parts.

But I would honestly be interested in learning more about Fritz and if/how he implements the caps.

Thanks!

p

@perkri

Fritz doesn’t use capacitors in his crossovers.

Sorry but I believe you misread his statements. Fritz doesn’t use caps in SERIES with the tweeter. He uses caps though. Fritz famously uses series crossovers, which are quite rare in our world. Still uses a cap but it is in parallel with the woofer (or something like that).

99% of all speakers I’ve ever seen or heard use parallel crossovers, which have first order components in series with the drivers. This includes famously time coherent speakers from Vandersteen and Thiel.

Best,

Erik

“A scoffer like you would not believe me even if I did state what I listen to.”

Try us all, Bozo…

Fritz doesn’t use capacitors in his crossovers.

And how does that disprove my point? He does not publish his circuits online does he? So why should I reveal all my secrets? Every designer can only reveal so much. 

Once again kenidjit strikes out. He uses the acoustic reality series crossover. One of the reasons why his speakers measure so well, and how they provide an easy, and consistent  load for the amplifier to see. 

Just take the damn thing out and use an active crossover. 

Well said. And if he cares about music and speakers so much. why will he not say what he listens to?

How would that change anything? A scoffer like you would not believe me even if I did state what I listen to. 

Apparently he listens to the clicking or thumping of square waves (depending on the duration of course).

Fritz doesn’t use capacitors in his crossovers.

Once again kenidjit strikes out. He uses the acoustic reality series crossover. One of the reasons why his speakers measure so well, and how they provide an easy, and consistent  load for the amplifier to see. 

Surprised you don’t know about this crossover, seeing as you are such a great speaker designer and superior audiophile.

Thanks @erik_squires . Well said. And if he cares about music and speakers so much. why will he not say what he listens to?

Its not just about getting them to know how wrong they are. Its about getting them to design speakers correctly. Audiophiles spend millions of dollars on high end speakers. It is a multi million dollar industry. We deserve better quality.

Kenjit, your entire history here from as far as I can remember has been throwing aspersions on speaker manufacturers, designers and DIYers with vague and unprovable statements and absolutely no specific example of how to do things better, or even what you’ve heard which sounds better or worse. Remember the month you spent arguing that there was no need to markup parts? Or the thread where you said you took apart a speaker and saw it had a bunch of parts in it you did not understand? Hilarious.

I dare you to hold up a single specific example anyone else could replicate or go listen to as better or worse than what you are suggesting. Somehow you never do, you just show up talking trash, in this case such general trash you are denigrating speaker makers as a class in their entirety.

Kenjit was here 5-6 years prior to MC's arrival.

DeKay

You get rid of one self important blow hard and another takes his place.

Tough crowd. No manners. And one of the reasons I don't bother reading this forum much anymore.