@cindymentYou have a habit to attacking people’s characters instead of their arguments.
Bad habit you have.
Actually I attacked the "distinction" placed upon them, whether using the description "Physicist" or "Preeminent" when there is no objective reason I could find (or that actual physicists and preeminent mathematicians believe). It appears those titles are purely self given. As the distinction is the crux of the argument, calling it into question is not "attacking character".
The mathematics of Standard Cosmology itself is extremely illogical and contradictory.. I posted Stephen Crother’s critiques of the standard mathematical model and he cuts right to the heart of the issue.
I don’t perceive you to be a mathematician or physicist @yuviarora, so I can only assume you are repeating someone else’s words without giving reference. Most advanced math looks like gobbly good to 99.9% of the people on the planet.
It’s not the 16th century anymore @yuviarora. And now, to my previous post, we have the beauty of math and massive amounts of data. If Crother’s "theories" were so great, then he would be able to present a unified theory that would not only predict the things that happened in the universe, but would predict them with greater accuracy than the current models. There is no need for a PhD, or university post to do this. The science media is desperate for anything interesting to post. This is exactly what Crothers has not done, and exactly what the the Physicists who he wrote the nastygram to said to him. He actually said exactly that, that Crothers had not shown in any fashion that he had created a model that more accurately predicted current observations. This was factual and Crothers had a hissy fit. The "normal" reaction would be to go back and refine your model, apply it to current astrophysics problems, and show, with proof, that your model is better, by both having more accuracy, and applicability to more cases. Again Crothers did not and has not done that. That is what separates those people initially thought crazy from the one that continue to be thought crazy. They prove they are not.
@cindymentYou have a habit to attacking people’s character instead of their arguments. Bad habit you have there.
Galileo (was imprisoned for proving that the Earth is not the center of the Universe)… You would have probably nailed his front door shut with all the other tormentors.
The mathematics of Standard Cosmology itself is extremely illogical and contradictory.. I posted Stephen Crother's critiques of the standard mathematical model and he cuts right to the heart of the issue.
Most people will not have the time to watch it, but it is a brief summation of the existential challenges the standard model faces. Mathematics is a tool to explain what we see out in space, but it cannot replace common sense, logic, and observation itself.
@mahgisteryes, we are children playing withideas that are too grand for comprehension, claiming authority and certainty where there is none.
@yuviarora, obviously we have different standards for what "preeminent" means. Stephen Crothers is only preeminent in his own mind and with a small group of people unqualified to determine if he is or not. Pretty much everyone else thinks he is a quack.
@mapman, excuse me for bringing you into this, but I wanted to illustrate how you truly alienate people. I hope the mods will give me some latitude on this post.
This is what Stephen Crothers wrote to a fellow scientist for the simple act of not agreeing with him and thinking his work shoddy. Keep in mind, this is from Stephen himself.
I must first apologise, as you for a gentleman I mistook.In all the email you sent me you included rude, arrogant, condescending, stupid, and insulting remarks. You have rightly earnt yourself a bloody nose, and if not for the distance between us I might well have visited you to deliver the causative blow, not because of your incompetent technical argument, but because your behaviour has been that of an arsehole. It seems that you are doomed to live and die a conceited shithead, and, moreover, a conceited shithead who cannot do even elementary geometry.
I think cindyment is right about Einstein relativity ...
Einstein equations are not wrong ...
Like Newton equations were not wrong...
Like epicylcles equations were not wrong...
It lacked something essential to Ptolemeaus equations: the Copernic hypothesis about the place of Earth in relation with the sun..
In the same way it lack something to add to Einstein equation and Schrodinger equation for example, i think it lack a better understanding of life and his relation to consciousness..
But i am a poet not a scientist...
Sometimes poet are right though....
😁😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
But @yuviarora , set aside the electrical hypothesis, you are right about the essential:
We dont know much about the universe....
Those who think they know are deluded....Or mystic...
Hey, I said credentialed, not qualified. However, to that, I will leave those far more knowledgeable to do it, which they have. They will accomplish in minutes what would take me days.
I know you don't respect the "math", but let me try to explain it. I will not try to justify the fudge factor of dark matter, as that is not possible, but that is just one item in a long long list.
Mathematical proofs are a lot like statistics.
If I say y = a + b, and I do an experiment, and y does equal A + B, that provides me a very narrow interpretation of the physical world and even then, a narrow confidence in its universal accuracy or applicability.
A statistical equivalent would be flipping a coin 10 times. I can have some confidence in what the statistics indicate, but not a lot.
Now what if I flip the coin a billion times, or better yet, what if I flipped 20 coins, 1 trillion times. Now I can be confident that the results is accurate with only the most minor minor chance it is not.
Mathematical proofs / models are like that. When I take say 10 equations, perhaps with 10 variables, and 10 constants, and I apply them to a new problem and come up with an answer, and then I do an experiment, and the experiment matches my mathematical model, then there is a very very high chance that the math IS an accurate representation of the physical reality. The reason is based in statistics. The odds that those equations, and those variables and those constants, randomly coming up with the exact answer is exceedingly low. The grey area, is "exact" and it will vary based on what you are modelling. And here is where the statistical strength improves. Often the answer is not 1 things, but a whole set of things, and the odds of all of those things happening and the models coming up with them, and the models doing it by accident become even more exceedingly rare.
This is why the electric model fails. It is incomplete, and only works in isolation. There are hand waving explanations for things that happened, but no unified model that takes into account everything that happens and all the outcomes, and all the phenomena observed.
The Electrical Universe cosmology is independent from Emmanuel Velikovsky’s work,
You are right about that, i never claim that all the electrical paradigm come from Velikovsky for sure...
In the last 50 years i see Velikovsky general claims about solar system REGULAR catastrophies, not details where he is wrong, confirmed by the general scientific view...
Crothers though does not seem to be a mathematician...
The LIGO-Virgo Scientific Collaboration has announced that on 14 September 2015, LIGO detected an Einstein gravitational wave directly for the first time, with the first concomitant observation of a binary black hole merger. The announcement was made with much media attention. Not so long ago similar media excitement surrounded the announcement by the BICEP-2 Team of detection of primordial gravitational waves imprinted in B-mode polarizations of a Cosmic Microwave Background, which proved to be naught. According to the LIGO-Virgo Collaboration, the gravitational wave LIGO allegedly detected was generated by two merging black holes, one of ~29 solar masses, the other of ~36 solar masses, at a distance of some 1.3 billion light years. The insurmountable problem for the credibility of LIGO’s claims is the invalidity of the theoretical assumptions upon which they are based. There are two ways by which the LIGO report can be analyzed: (a) examination of the LIGO interferometer operation and data acquisition, and (b) consideration of the theories of black holes and gravitational waves upon which all else relies. Only theoretical considerations are considered in this presentation because there is no need to analyze the LIGO apparatus and its alleged signal data to understand that the claim for detection of Einstein gravitational waves and black holes is built upon theoretical fallacies and conformation bias. The instrumental aberration reported by the LIGO-Virgo Collaboration is not related to Einstein gravitational waves or to the collision and merger of black holes.
Stephen Crothers is a preeminent mathematician, counted among the most competent critics of modern cosmology, including both the General Theory of Relativity and popular theory of the Big Bang. He has also gained much attention for his systematic unraveling of standard Black Hole theory, showing that the mathematical model of a Black Hole follows neither from observation nor from any logical reasoning from Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity. He gave two talks at the conference.
The Electrical Universe cosmology is independent from Emmanuel Velikovsky’s work, I know debunkers like to focus on this part of the catalogue amongst a 1000 other videos. These 3 videos deal with the history of Human myth, and show evidence that the surface of mars has been sculpted by Interplanetary Electrical arcing in it’s recent history. Events that were recorded and observed by ancient cultures on every continent on our planet.
This Mars topology was predicted by Emmanuel Velikovsky, as much as people like to label him as a nutjob, a lot of his claims have since been proven right.
Hey, I am a physicist too and I didn’t even know it! Heck, I am even more credentialed!
Then being no more qualified than Thornhill in physics you woud not be able to critic him....Save by believing the actual scientific consensus...But believing is not knowing...
I dont know myself what to think about the electric universe anyway...
One thing is certain for me , gravity ALONE cannot explain the universe....It seems obvious to me even if the electrical paradigm is demonstrated to be wrong formulated by Thornhill..
The deep question is WHY ARE WE UNABLE TO overpass by uniting them quantum mechanics and gravity?
We must understand i think first what is life and what is consciousness no?
In Part 1 of this presentation, physicist Wal Thornhill began his analysis of the recent award of the Nobel Prize in Physics to scientists for their contributions to the so-called detection of gravitational waves. While science media has shown exactly zero skepticism of the gravitational waves pronouncements, Thornhill discussed some of the foundational mathematical problems that preclude the claimed detection of "two black holes colliding a billion years ago, and producing ripples in the fabric of space-time." Today, in Part 2, Thornhill explores another fundamental cosmological question, and that is the existence of the required medium for the communication of waves in a vacuum – a medium called the aether.
The balance between merits inherited by works and talents and freedom of all individuals cannot be solved in a society where EDUCATION is not the center of the social life ...Economic production could NO MORE be the center of social life especially in the near future while robots will take charge of materials needs......
Economy with A. I. cannot be based on conception of market inherited by Bernard Mandeville and Adam Smith and after that of Hayek and Friedman....Our actual notion of economy and its place are completely outdated...Read Mandeville to understand...Do you know him? He was a very clever but machiavellian mind who influence all those who comes after... He was a genius the Freud of economy and clever than Marx or Smith...But his times of influence has now reach his end...We need a more conscious understanding of ourselves economically and politically and spiritually ....Look at what Hayek said of Mandeville whom he called "our master of us all":
In the times to come our effort in education will decide for a large part of the future of our societies...We live no more in Mandeville world...
Then i am not against merits, but i am a proponent of a spiritual education not only the development of skills...
Learning how to think for example dont begin with only science but also litterature and history, philosophy and manual works....i call that a spiritual education...
And the basis of any enduring civilization could not be based on merits ONLY but on education first... Merits are consequence of education if not, they are inherited and transmitted by a reigning class...I dont want to live in an ant technocratic colony inspired by a new disciple of Mandeville who know more than Orwell and Huxley centuries before them...
Is it not surprizing that almost no one know Mandeville?
That reveal what i call an education problem....
Science the limited way we understand it now is not synonymus of knowledge...Only a part of it....
@mahgister, while I am obviously a proponent of meritocracy, that should never mean that people are not fed, that they have a roof over their head, that they should have to worry about medical bankruptcy or that the financial means of the parents define educational outcomes. None of those are good for the future of a society. Being a centrist, though, if you want to get a university degree in basket weaving, or anything that that will have very limited financial outcomes and could be viewed as a vanity degree, I think you should be paying more for your education, not less. Unfortunately, I see the opposite happening with public education, the degrees that could lead to larger financial rewards, even engineering, are penalized with higher tuition. This unfortunately just further stratifies "class" in society by keeping out economically disadvantaged students, no matter the merit of their being in that occupation. The outcome is the opposite or meritocracy.
Climate changes are there all through history.... Then...But i am with you for the incompetence in gestion...And the necessity to answer to energy needs...
For the censorship permeating america and the world now, it takes us to the wrong direction and makes all this health crisis the worst managed in recent history....Anyway i hate cultist, being "scientific" one or "religious one", censorship is the weapon of powerful fanatics or the shield of the weak....
For meritocracy, yes, but we must live in society with the right balance between merits and freedom, we are not a hive... One this thing is said i dream about democracy which is now it seems a thing of the past...The balance between merits and freedom is achieved ONLY by EDUCATION...There is no more education , and developing specialized skills is not to be educated, ants in their nest develop skills only....
Those who direct the tides at command posts now not only own no merit in general at all but are unelected...And the elected one are totally without any power in front of them...
We live interesting times for sure.....
To be frank and honest i am also flabbergasted by the actual situation in the world...
At some point all adults must take responsibility for their decisions including their arrogance. From the above, Einstein appears to have little "respect" for the concepts of the book, but does not consider the author a bad person. I have some friends with pretty wacky ideas too. My one friend I go to for real estate advice, I don't go to for medical advice.
I don't agree with @djones51at all on his statement to remove the thread (or at least the posts about electric universe). I would rather it be left up. What is that saying. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Censorship, even if well meaning, comes with unintended consequences as the censorer becomes the censored (take note woke people).
There is a corollary to this, as we have seen with Covid, and with climate change, certain held views, when they significantly influence behavior, can have far ranging impacts and results in significant amounts of death and economic harm. And I still will not, even in the face of that, call for censorship. With Covid, there is every indication that censorship played a part in delaying, or perhaps even developing treatments. That does not mean I believe in Ivermectin or Hydroxycholoroquine, it only means what I said it means. Similarly in BC, Canada, devastating rains and flooding are destroying billions of infrastructure, leaving many homeless, and square miles of farm and residential land under water. It is being blamed on Climate Change. While the level of rains, at this time of year, are unusual, the level of flooding (or at least water) is within the realm of historical flooding. The real cause for all the damages is not Climate Change, but decades of government incompetence both in not addressing entirely predictable flooding levels and well known inadequate protection mechanisms, as well poor forest management. However, ask 90% of people and they will say the cause is what they were told it was, Climate Change. Similarly we have massive protests to block the development, use and export of LNG, though every BTU of LNG typically turns off a BTU of coal at 1/2 the GHG. That does not make LNG perfect. There are real issues of methane release that need to be addressed (and can be). Protesting against LNG is akin to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
I apologize for the long and perhaps rambling post. I know your post was well meaning, and I think I understood the premise, but I also believe, that short of censorship, we do need to more aggressively call out this "I can have my own facts" mindset. We could probably spend pages and pages about the areas in which that is leading us down a dark path.
I will leave you with a thought. Can you name, throughout history, a successful culture that was not based predominantly on meritocracy? I would argue that the downfall of most cultures, throughout time, is when they cease to be meritocracies.
For every genius that history ultimately proves right there are probably 10 million cranks that deserve to be forgotten. Every year there are various claims that General Relativity is inaccurate. So far, none have stood critical review. Still, at some point GR will be supplanted by a more complete explanation of observational data. Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff is what enables progress.
The historical background for this thuderbolt video was inspired by Emmanuel Velikovsky...
He wrote at a times when we were teach that all is gound FIXED and STABLE in history, and in the sky...( Nobody has understood Poincaré dynamic yet )
Many mocked him when he published his first book, "worlds in collision", Einstein being not an idiot read the book dont laughed, like Sagan will, and befriend him... After all they comes from the same community and Velikovsky erudition was astounding.... I read his first book 50 years ago...
Carl Sagan called him a crook...Or false science...
The problem is the general view of Velikovsky was proven right now, even if for sure many ideas of Velikovsky were proven wrong.... Especially after the proofs of multiple meteors ot comets impact 12 thousand years ago long after Velikovsky death ....... Nothing is safe and stable and secure under the sky and on earth...
His historical erudition was astounding , he even wrote a book about Egyptian dynasties and catastrophes in these times... The book was so heavy to read i forgot details...it is long ago... 😊😁😊
Mars and venus not being on stable orbits are FIRST deductions of Velikovsky after reading all histories and mythologies on earth , not from Thunderbolts group...We can be in disagreement about these facts, but no idiots would last long laughing with Velikovsky erudition... His historical erudition about all history and mythologies amaze even Einstein...This dont make him right but invite respect....
Then if someone here of good faith partake some interesting information, it is not a good idea to mock him...We are all friends here and discussions dont implicate mocking and rejection from the back of the hands...I know enough history to know that i lived in a collective fable all my life anyway....If you dont know that, close your audio system and go read books...
Many decade ago i was displeased by Carl Sagan appeal to banish so amazingly erudite books, he lost my admiration completely... But Einstein is a truly great soul....
And by the way FORGOT many erroneous details of many Velikovsky claims, his general view named " catastrophism" is now the perspective which is accepted in ALL sciences: history, geology, and astronomy.... The world is not created in 6 days and STABLE for us to live eternally...After Velikovsky’s death, science discovered comets and meteors impacts on earth, confirming many view of Velikovsky...
Then ignorant and informed one must refrain themselves to mock people BEFORE reading their book...
«History of science is science» Goethe
This Goethe deep remark means that science is NEVER completed....And science has no deep meaning OUTSIDE of his ungoing history....It is not a faith which with we conquer other souls, claimimg to be right...Investigative minds like Einstein and Velikovsky are not militant in cults, religions or "science" inspired cults.....Other like Sagan prefer censorship....
For the " electrical universe thesis" i am not competent to judge it...
But i am not a fool to think that we understand the universe now...
The next revolution will help us.... It is in biology, and knowing what life is will help us to understand cosmology.....
«
Einstein on Velikovsky
In Einstein’s last interview before he died, with science historian I. Bernard Cohen, Einstein said in reference to Velikovsky:
“The subject of controversies over scientific work led Einstein to take up the subject of unorthodox ideas. He mentioned a fairly recent and controversial book, of which he had found the non-scientific part – dealing with comparative mythology and folklore – interesting. “You know,” he said to me, “it is not a bad book. No, it really isn’t a bad book. The only trouble with it is, it is crazy.” This was followed by a loud burst of laughter. He then went on to explain what he meant by this distinction. The author had thought he was basing some of his ideas upon modern science, but found the scientists did not agree with him at all. In order to defend his idea of what he conceived modern science to be, so as to maintain his theories, he had to turn around and attack the scientists. I replied that the historian often encountered this problem: Can a scientist’s contemporaries tell whether he is a crank or a genius when the only evident fact is his unorthodoxy? A radical like Kepler, for example, challenged accepted ideas; it must have been difficult for his contemporaries to tell whether he was a genius or a crank. “There is no objective test,” replied Einstein.
“Einstein was sorry that scientists in the U. S. had protested to publishers about the publication of such a book. He thought that bringing pressure to bear on a publisher to suppress a book was an evil thing to do. Such a book really could not do any harm, and was therefore not really bad. Left to itself, it would have its moment, public interest would die away and that would be the end of it. The author of such a book might be “crazy” but not “bad,” just as the book was not “bad.” Einstein expressed himself on this point with great passion.”[2]
I have been in this short time the target for pretty much continuous abuse. Knowing what you are talking about and not being afraid to put what you know to "paper" does not go over well. I don't see any point is reporting pretty much all of those. However, this is a case of targeted trolling, and having moderated forums in the past, that usually results in an instant time out if not ban. I have reported the 12 or so troll posts from the single poster. He was accusing me of being the second account of another forum poster, who I saw he also engaged in targeted harassment of. Another person even directed a comment at him that his behavior was unacceptable and from the text of it, I assumed I was not his first or only target.
Their is a report button. If you feel a user is abusive report them but remember it goes both ways. My only concern is that reporting abusive is anonymous so it becomes a tit for tat scenario.
Is there an Audigon moderator in the house? Can you do anything about @tsushima1and his trolling posts. I think we are up to about 12 now across at least 5 threads.
There actually is a real scientific theory called the Plasma Universe. Although generally considered wrong, it was put forth by real scientist and was offered as an alternative to gravity based models of the observable universe. It had explanations for the matter/anti-matter balance, geometric flatness and expansion of the universe. Further study of the cosmic background radiation showed serious problems with the theory and the discovery of gravity waves, as predicted by general relativity, put the final nail in it so to speak. A real theory by real scientist, but proven wrong by observable events.
When you guys figure out what the misconception is better let the engineers and scientists who actually understand this stuff and make it work know. I expect my electricity to be done right!
Blah blah blah. I am not talking about flat Earth...YOU ARE.
I am talking about planetary scarring that has been reproduced in controlled laboratory experiments.
So keep building those strawman arguments :)
Throw in some Qanon references while you are at it.
As a mater of fact, why don't you go bother someone else, go do something productive. Commenting on videos that you are not going to watch, and critiquing evidence that you are not going to see, is borderline demented.
This thread has denigrated into a flat earth discussion. Flat Earth followers claim that the earth is flat because it is "obvious" to their eyes, and their eyes do not deceive them (sound familiar). Then they go on to even do experiments all of which are done wrong, or interpreted wrong because they lack the fundamental knowledge to implement or understand the experiments they are trying to do. You would think that some radio transmissions are "line of sight" and no matter how tall the tower, that remains true assuming the Earth is round would give them pause, but when you mix dogma with lack of knowledge I guess it does not.
The 2nd part of the series that deals with Electrical Scarring on the surface of Mars gets me every single time. Just finished watching it again, it’s time to send the Thunderbolt guys my Cult Dues, and the foreskin of my 1st born.
The team over there gets very uppity if they don’t get their tributes on time.
Anyone that has any experience with a welding torch will recognize that scarring instantly, no 13th dimension black hole, Neutron Star or esoteric mathematics needed.
So the Electric Universe is nothing but a cult. After reading some of their mythology that's what I thought. Promoting Cults should be a definite nono on this site. Please remove this nonsense. If not volutarily the moderators should.
@millercarbonThese are just some of the top comments on the first video. I feel exactly the same way, that this is one of those must watch pieces of work, whether you agree or disagree at the end of watching it, you will never encounter this information anywhere else. It is if nothing else, just an incredibly wild ride.
Again, before i get attacked for shilling for this stuff, I am definitely not doing that. Coming across this work for me was one of those incredible Aha moments in my life, I have no other agenda, or reason to post this here.
(1st)"I stopped drinking because of this video on February 19, 2014. This video made me stop being a worthless drunk and I pulled myself together and have been on a quest from that very day. I am a father and a husband of 18 years ,happily and content, ALL because of this movie. Thank you David for your work, and for my marriage? I will continue to live a life of balance in honor of your gift of knowledge to us all."
(2nd) "I don’t say this lightly... This is easily one of the greatest videos I have ever seen--period. Several people close to me know that I have been driven by a need to find the truth, because everything I have been taught never seemed to fit together as it should if it were the truth. For the first time in my life, I feel like I’m finally learning something that makes sense from a logical and physical perspective."
(3rd) "This video has changed my life. I first watched it two years ago and I have never looked back. There is simply no trouble explaining any question I can form with the Electric Universe model. It is the most profound work I have ever encountered in my life. I truly feel like a part of something greater than myself because of this information. Thank You."
You need the first video so you have some context as to what the other ones are talking about. There is over a 1000 hours of information...to give you evidence out of context, would be like me speaking to you in Latin.
If you are not interested in spending time to explore these ideas, I can't help you. There is no context in modern science that will help, or information that will make the transition any easier.
There are no shortcuts, you have to listen to the videos in a series, and go along on that journey.
I find the videos extremely entertaining, even outside of their scientific purview.
The hard science videos are catalogued in a different series, if you are interested past these ones.
After your last waste of time video not about to waste another hour. If you think there's "evidence" why can't you just say so? I can explain clearly why it is bunk. At least give me a time stamp. Or are you saying the entire hour is evidence? What are you saying, anyway?
@millercarbon there are over a 1000 hours of other videos that go into extensive detail on the subject. This video was released 8 years ago. the 1st in a series.
The evidence suggests that only a few thousand years ago planets moved close to the earth, producing electrical phenomena of intense beauty and terror.
I'll probably regret this but can't help asking, What evidence?
@yuviarora, neutron stars and black holes are truly astounding objects. They are hard to imagine let alone comprehend, but all evidence points to them being real. If you have a better explanation for fast radio bursts, pulsars, quasars, gravity waves and the synthesis of elements with greater than 50 protons, then your Nobel Prize is waiting. To quote the great detective "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
Regarding speculation about the new member vs. the other, I don't see the connection. They don't present their opinions in the same way. I could be wrong, but sometimes events are a coincidence.
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